Specialized Wizards VS Generalist Wizards. Which one you prefer?

[Cryomancer]

PoE2 gives Transmuters the most love of any game though. A unique and at will shapeshifting spell is exactly what they need.

I strongly disagree. Disintegrate no longer OHK and is cipher only spell. You no longer can petrify enemies. Nor cast powerful defensive spells like stoneskin. The ogre form is far weaker than Tenser's Transformation form in BG2. I suggest checking Green Wizards on KoTC2.

• Green Wizard Improved Widen: You can cast a Widened version of Dispel Magic, Haste and Slow at a +1 spell-level cost, rather than the normal +2 spell-level cost.
• Green Wizard Quick Casting: You can cast Protection from Arrows, Enlarge, Enhance Weapon, Protection from Energy, Enhance Ability, Darkvision, Greater Enhance Weapon and Haste as move-action spells, rather than standard-action or full-round action spells.
• Green Wizard Improved Alteration: The enhancement bonus from your spells Enhance Weapon and Greater Enhance Weapon increases by +1. The enhancement bonus from your spell Enhance Ability increases by +2.
• Green Wizard Advanced Specialization: You cast Disintegrate as a level-5 spell and Greater Disintegrate as a level-8 spell.
• Green Wizard Improved Reach: You cast the spells Enhance Weapon, Protection from Energy, Enhance Ability, Darkvision, Greater Enhance Weapon, True Seeing and Greater Protection from Energy as close-range spells, rather than touch spells.

source : https://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Wizard.htm

You can also permanently become a construct at high levels

"Construct Transformation requirements: Level 15 Wizard or Sorcerer, Juron Attunement, Greater Spell Focus (Alteration), 250,000 gold, 20,000 XP, 1 Star Diamond.

Effects: You gain 50 extra Hit Points and Damage Reduction DR 10/magic. You gain Fire and Cold damage immunity. Your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is upgraded from low BAB to medium BAB. Your size category increases by one, from Small to Medium, Medium to Large, or Large to Huge. You gain two extra arms (a Mantis would then have six arms). You receive a +4 bonus to Concentration checks and a +4 bonus to Strength. You gain 50% resistance to sonic damage and 50% vulnerability to acid damage."

source https://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Moons.htm

I honestly am in doubt between Dark Wizard or Green Wizard. Both are amazing. Greater disintegrate in KoTC2 OHK enemies and if they succeed the save, they still take 8d8 damage. Transformation doesn't even disable your spells. Which makes it even better than in NWN1, in nwn1, I only use it vs enemies with high SR(spell resistance).

Some spells from KoTC2 :

• Transformation (Alteration. Personal. 1 round per level. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your caster level and you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Constitution and Dexterity. You can still cast spells.)
• Greater Disintegrate (Alteration. Medium Range. Creatures struck by this green ray are immediately turned to ashes. The spell requires a successful ranged touch attack. Subjects who are successful on a Fortitude saving throw instead take 8d8 points of damage plus one point for every caster level.)
• Flesh to Stone (Alteration. Melee touch. Fortitude negates. The spell petrifies a single creature, turning it into an inert, mindless stone statue. Permanent.)
• Baleful Polymorph (Alteration. Medium range. Fortitude negates. For 1d6+1 rounds, you turn a living creature into a toad. While polymorphed, access to the inventory is lost. You cannot use manufactured weapons. Verbal spells cannot be cast without the Silent Spell metamagic. You gain a single bite attack (1d4 damage) which replaces all your normal attacks. Your speed drops to 10. You gain the following ability scores: Strength 4, Dexterity 14, Constitution 10, Intelligence 6, Wisdom 14, Charisma 4. You retain your class, level, hit points, size category, space, alignment, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, feats, immunities, spell-like abilities, extraordinary abilities and supernatural abilities.)
• Time Control (Alteration. 25' radius circle. Duration 10 rounds. All friendly targets in the area of effect are hasted. All enemy targets in the area of effect are slowed, unless they succeed on a Willpower saving throw. A hasted creature holding a weapon gains an extra attack. Recipients also gain a +1 bonus on reflex saving throws, a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to attack rolls. The recipient's speed doubles. Slowed creatures may not perform full attacks or other full-round actions. Speed is halved and the creature takes -1 penalties on Reflex saving throws, AC, and attack rolls.)

source : https://www.heroicfantasygames.com/FWE/Pages/FWE_Wizard.htm

There are way more cool spells from alteration in KoTC2. As a Transmuter in KoTC2, you can control the flow of time(sadly not completely stop), reduce enemies into ashes, buff party, become a construct, petrify enemies, transform enemies into toads(...)

 

[Poseidon00]

The ogre form is far weaker than Tenser's Transformation form in BG2

PoE's Tensers-like spell stacks with Ogre form IIRC, as do all your free action defensive spells and abilities. I was rolling an amamua max strength Transmuter/Corpse Eater and was tearing through everything. With Rage and Ogre form active I had 30 might at level 1 by the first turn. Corpse eaters get power level bonuses that apply to their spells as well. But mostly the spells were just there for free action defense spells while I beat things in Ogre form. Gotta love PoE logic where some cannibal barbarian savage can be an extremely powerful academic wizard because he's really strong and stuff.

I will check out KoTC at some point when I have money to spend on vidya again.

 

[Cryomancer]

That is my critique towards PoE transmuters. They are good only for "Conan the Librarian" types of characters. When being able to melee is just one aspect of transmutation magic.

And Poseidon, KoTC1 was good but KoTC2 seems even better.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Generalist. The point of being a wizard is versatility. Narrowing that diminishes the advantage. The one exception is if it's a "false" sort of specialization that circumvents the drawback. For example, Wild Mage in BG2 get the benefits of being a specialist mage without the school restrictions in addition to the other benefits. Shadwocaster or Shadow Adept prestige classes in D&D 3E allow you cast most conjuration and evocation spells. Those exceptions not-withstanding, generalist plays to the wizard's strengths. Right spell for the right situation. Some say the sorcerer is better for that due to the spontaneous nature of their methods, but they are wrong. Their spell selection is too narrow and limited.

 

[Haba]

Yup. True specialization simply doesn't work in game context. Not unless it is some kind of a fantasy Jagged Alliance, where you rent a fire wizard when you need one. Or bring enough characters to cover all situations.

Even a specialist wizard needs to have some general utility spells, and be viable in every encounter. So either you have lot of generic school spells (reducing the specialization) or the specialist school of magic needs equivalent spells (in which case the schools of magic can't truly stand apart from each other).

 

[Cryomancer]

I don't get why people compare specialized wizards with sorcerers. Sorcs was not existed as a spontaneous casters till 3rd edition. And now in 5th edition, has a extremely limited spell selection. Even in 3rd edition, one study magic, another has in born magic, so a specialist wizard still vastly different from a sorcerer.

AS for not working in video games, I strongly disagree.

BG2:EE in Legacy of Bhaal difficulty as a necromancer is much easy than as a generalist caster due the -2 penalty on enemy saves. By putting in a sequencer/contigency two lower resist + a greater malison, you can reduce up to 60% of enemy MR and make him deal a save vs spell at -8 penalty(-4 from malison + -2 from necromancer specialization + -2 from FoD spell itself), so, against Firkraag, the Red Dragon, the malison has a 95% chance of sticking. 65% chance of Firkraag failing his save against the FoD if the malison is on, 45% if it isn't. Combined, that's a 64% chance of failing his save. Then it's 95% to beat the remaining magic resistance with the FoD, for an overall 60.8% chance of the two-round kill. If you try to kill the same enemy using damaging spells, would take far more time on LoB with far less chance of success. I only soloed BG2:EE LoB difficulty as a necromancer.

Gothic 2 + Returning mod makes magic more dependent on the faction and enemies, mainly dragons and demons are far more strong vs dark magic which makes the life of necromancer in certain boss fights pretty hard. I like it. It makes re playing the game as a water mage instead of a necromancer different. And makes teh decision between fire mages / necromancers / gurus / water mages far more important.

On Pathfinder Kingmaker, I always pick specialized wizard over generalist wizard. Might & Magic VI~VIII divides the magic in fire magic, water magic, air magic, earth magic, light magic, dark magic and the spells in normal -> expert -> master -> gran master. Is better in the game to focus in a single magic school. Same for Two Worlds 1. You can't master all magic schools in the game.

It clearly works in games.

 

[Nano]

Specialist. Mages who can do whatever they want with no area of specialization are thematically boring. I don't want to give up that extra spell per day, too.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

I prefer games where wizards are only the enemies, and the PC has to learn to be a hero without waving hands and casting fireball.

 

[Cryomancer]

I prefer games where wizards are only the enemies, and the PC has to learn to be a hero without waving hands and casting fireball.

IS your choice, but fireball is IMO a overrated spell. Lightning bolt and skull trap are much better low level spells in BG2.

I don't want to give up that extra spell per day, too.

Yep. Extra spell per day is a amazing thing. -2 on enemy saves too.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Specialist mages in CRPGs are usually just game designers trying to excuse a half-assed magic system without any spell variety.

 

[Cryomancer]

Specialist mages in CRPGs are usually just game designers trying to excuse a half-assed magic system without any spell variety.

Strongly disagree. Just compare magery in Baldur's Gate 2 with Planescape Torment. PST has way less spells and no specialists. Summon spells in PST torment are the awful D&D 4E/FF style "summon as a single attack", is annoying to after each cast, watch the same cinematic and there are almost no spell variety in the game. Not saying that PST is a bad game. Is a amazing game. But would be extremely better with BG2 magery.

Knights of the Chalice 2 has specialization. KoTC1 doesn't. KoTC2 has way more spells and cool abilities.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Specialist mages in CRPGs are usually just game designers trying to excuse a half-assed magic system without any spell variety.

Knights of the Chalice 2 has specialization. KoTC1 doesn't. KoTC2 has way more spells and cool abilities.

I disagree here. That's a false equivalence. KoTC2 benefits from KoTC1 development in the same way BG2 did from BG1. The presence of specialization is a strawman.

I agree with Maxwell's Demon. Specialization in games is most often class based, which is an excuse to make one-off abilities rather than develop a coherent magic system. Weeabo games are a great example of this. That poison has reached the west. PoE was a horrific example of what Maxwell is addressing.

 

[Cryomancer]

, which is an excuse to make one-off abilities rather than develop a coherent magic system. Weeabo games are a great example of this. That poison has reached the west. PoE was a horrific example of what Maxwell is addressing.

Pillars of Eternity 2 is the WORST example of specialization. For a pure Wiz, there is no reason to pick anything but Evoker. And watershaper which is the unique really interesting specialization(for druid, not wiz) is for a companion only.

My point is that most games with hundreds of spells producing hundreds of different effects often allow specialization. The D&D games which allow specialization tends to have way more spell variety than those who don't allow. M&M VI~VIII, BG1/2/ToB, Gothic 2 + Returning, Two Worlds 1, all of this games has a lot of different spells and specializations. Arcanum doesn't have classes per say, but you will end up only maximizing one or two magic schools.

Can you give examples of games which gives a specialization only to have a "one off ability" and very limited spell selection?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

, which is an excuse to make one-off abilities rather than develop a coherent magic system. Weeabo games are a great example of this. That poison has reached the west. PoE was a horrific example of what Maxwell is addressing.

Can you give examples of games which gives a specialization only to have a "one off ability" and very limited spell selection?

• Any final fantasy
• Dungeon Siege 2
• Arcanum
• Tower of Time
• Diablo 2
• Dragon Age

Diablo 2 might be technically untrue. A player could conceivably put one point in everything, they'd all just suck. The system compels you to specialize. Arcanum doesn't have the breadth of all spells available to a caster. Their spell selection is a completely limited by their character level, and how they choose to advance. Final Fantasy has a white mage that heals and summons, and a black mage that blasts. There is no coherent system that they share, they're just different classes. Their spells are class abilities in all but name. Tower of Time exemplifies this. This is very distinct from D&D, where spell casters have a wide breadth of spells from all manner styles (schools) that extend beyond a specific class.

 

[Cryomancer]

r. Their spell selection is a completely limited by their character level, and how they choose to advance.

And what is the problem? I don't wanna lv 1 characters able to cast teleport and disintegrate.

There is no coherent system that they share, they're just different classes. Their spells are class abilities in all but name.

But that is not a problem of having specialized casters.; Is that casting is lackluster in general. If you could only play FF1 as a Red Mage, how the game would be better? As for Diablo, Diablo 3 got rid of character specialization. Now you are what you wear and spells makes no sense. As a necromancer, I could use siphon blood spell in a skeleton. And the amount of blood siphoned is proportional to the size and sharpness of my axe which dimaterialize in the casting animation. Everyone now is a clone. Sacred 3 and Dungeon Siege 3 also got rid of specializations

IF you look to Gothic 2 - Returning mod, a lot of people criticize the difficulty, feature creep and some fanfic writing. I never saw anyone complaining cuz they can't learn how to summon demons in Innos monastery.