Indie Sonucido: The Mage - A turn-based Dungeon Crawler

[Moaning_Clock]

Made two other female characters - now with long hair.

This is one of them:

I also upgraded my ThinkCentre substantially by changing my one 8 GB RAM stick to two 4 GB ones.

Spoiler

My fiancee had 4 4 GB sticks and I took 2 out and replaced them with the 8 GB stick so she also still has RAM in dual channel.

This makes a giant difference. While standing still in a level I had 44 FPS with the single RAM stick and now I have 65 FPS (1280x720, 4 MSAA, HD 530). Since my dev station doesn't have a graphics card (and doesn't need one to be frank) I use the iGPU of the i5 I'm rocking. I thought that I would get a decent bump like 5-10 FPS but was really surprised when I got +21 FPS. Some other tasks also feel snappier!

 

[Moaning_Clock]

My fiancee is working on new incident screens! Had a couple of new ideas for different incidents in the game. I still really like the system and think it's a great addition to the game.

If you didn't read the whole thread, the tl;dr: Incidents are small choose-your-own-adventure screens. This greatly expands the RPG elements in this Dungeon Crawler since it's a great way to have more skill-checks.

Here's an example:

Spoiler

In a few days another person will playtest the game, I'm really looking forward to that.

The game will still take some time and I'm unhappy that it is delayed so much from the initial release date - but it benefits greatly from the additional time.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I finally bothered myself with fixing the icon of Sonucido: The Mage. To change it in all places (like taskmanager, the taskbar, etc.) you need to use an external program called rcedit (at least for windows). I dunno why - it's just a quirk of Godot.

That's how the game looked in the taskmanager before.

And now.

Spoiler

The windows version is btw. 32 bit since the game supports a lot of older hardware so it should also support old OSes (for everyone who still uses a 32 bit copy of Win 7 for example) and it uses not even a gig of RAM. The Linux version is 64 bit.

In the last couple of weeks I fixed a lot of minor bugs, quirks and improved many small things (more sounds, minor UI improvements, etc.). Focusing a lot on details so everything feels polished.
The next thing I need to fix are the doors. I finally introduced a sound while opening the door and made it possible to open it without a weapon in hand (it's mundane and should have been introduced way before). The problem is: You can trigger the open sound multiple times atm.

 

[Zizka]

Are you going to mix pixel art and NPA like what your girlfriend drew?

Regarding the pixel art, I think you should hire someone. I know a few good pixel artists who could work for you. At the moment the screen your girlfriend has drawn is much better than the rest of the art of the game and it’s very jarring. The styles clash really badly.

An artist could also help you with your wall textures instead of using black jagged lines.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Are you going to mix pixel art and NPA like what your girlfriend drew?

The stuff my fiancee draws is used in special scenes - cutscenes and choose-your-own-adventure incidents (like shown in the spoiler tag three posts before) but not in the normal gameplay.

Regarding the pixel art, I think you should hire someone.

I'm not interested in working with an artist, I like to do the stuff mostly myself. Some people like the style, some people really hate it and many don't care. I like to do small improvements to it every now and then but it's not a priority.

 

[Zizka]

I'm not interested in working with an artist, I like to do the stuff mostly myself. Some people like the style, some people really hate it and many don't care. I like to do small improvements to it every now and then but it's not a priority.

That’s unfortunate. The indie market now isn’t what it used to be 10 years ago. It’s flooded with games now and the competition is fierce. Granted, some people might overlook your art, most won’t unfortunately. You might think people will be forgiving about it but they won’t.

Interest for the game is low which is 90% likely because of the way it looks (a few people have a commented about it already in the thread). In comparison with:

There’s a major difference here. It’s not because Wormwood are better than you, it’s because they focus on their strength. An artist does the art and it shows.

Very, very, very few people can tackle everything in a game for good reason: the amount of skill required is massive. Eric Barone does (StarDew Valley). His pixel art isn’t stellar but it’s good enough that it doesn’t stick out as a sore thumb.

This is an example of what pro pixel art looks like (which looks even better than Stardew Valley):

-by zeedouble

You don’t need graphics which look that good, but you do need a Stardew valley bare minimum where people are willing to overlook the graphics.

There is such a thing as aesthetics.

If you’re lacking artistic skills, you can design around that:

I don’t think that’s good enough but at least they’re trying to use their limitations design wise.

I don’t think you’ll take anything I’ve written in consideration (you’ve decided that is a minor thing and it’s just a matter of taste) but I still wanted to explain my point of view. Having the humility to recognise areas where other people are more skilled is part of designing a good game.

Right now you’ve designed the game in such a way where you need certain assets but you lack the manpower to make those assets. What you’re doing requires a lot of assets if you don’t want everything to look samey.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I don’t think you’ll take anything I’ve written in consideration (you’ve decided that is a minor thing and it’s just a matter of taste) but I still wanted to explain my point of view. Having the humility to recognise areas where other people are more skilled is part of designing a good game.

I know that there are people that are more skilled than I am. If I wouldn't think that, my fiancee wouldn't do the box- and cutscene-art lol
It has nothing to do with being humble or arrogant - it's just not a priority for me.

That’s unfortunate. The indie market now isn’t what it used to be 10 years ago. It’s flooded with games now and the competition is fierce. Granted, some people might overlook your art, most won’t unfortunately. You might think people will be forgiving about it but they won’t.

I didn't want to get more in-depth but since you put effort in your post, I will answer it.
I don't know how you got your opinion but it's pretty much the state-of-the-art on sites where gamedev is commonly discussed, so I just assume that you didn't release something yet. Generally speaking: Everything is doom and gloom since the floodgates opened, it's so hard to make money but here is your silver bullet: Great graphics.

But I never understood, if this is true: Why is Stephen Sausage Roll successful (200k$+)? Why is Jeff Vogel still in business? Why has Gary Grigsby's War in the West likely made over 50k$? Why do people like Brigand: Oaxaca?
All these games are commonly called ugly.

I don't think my game will buy me a yacht. But I also don't think it would if the graphics were 10 times better.

The impact of graphics is largely overstated, the problem why games fail is: shit game, no marketing or almost no marketing, broken at launch + Indie (brutal combo). Would all these games sell better if the graphics were great? Absolutely. Would the investement be always worth it? I doubt it.

Spoiler

Everything is regarding to the Indie space, not AA, AAA or III games or whatever. 1-3 people making a game. If you have a big release, there are certainly other rules.

My goal is 1000 wishlists before launch, rn I'm at 942. I'm making a Dungeon Crawler, something that I wanted to do in years. I'm having fun, learning a fuck-ton, the game will make me a bit of money on the side.
I'm satisfied with that

 

[Zizka]

I don't know how you got your opinion but it's pretty much the state-of-the-art on sites where gamedev is commonly discussed, so I just assume that you didn't release something yet.

Take yourself out of the equation for a minute. See this from a perspective about game design.

I don’t understand the sentence or me having released something or not has anything to do with what we’re discussing. Edit: [I had listed my experience in game development but removed it because it’s irrelevant]. Be careful not to fall in the logical fallacy of: “only those who have done what I’ve done have valid opinions about game development”. It has no bearing whatsoever. Most people who look at your game and judge it aren’t dev.

It’s not about being part of a modern trend. Humans like things which look good. Talk about a truism! It always has been. As I’ve said, indie development is focusing on your strengths. If art isn’t your string suit, go for a simple representation (or a symbolic one) to avoid comparisons. I’m mentioning this for the sake of the conversation. I’m well aware you won’t scrap all of your art and start over. I mean, you’re still in early development art wise (or at least seem to) so maybe it could be done.

it's so hard to make money but here is your silver bullet: Great graphics.

No. That’s not the point being made and not what I’ve said. Here’s what I said:

You don’t need graphics which look that good, but you do need a Stardew valley bare minimum where people are willing to overlook the graphics.

Do you see the difference between:

a. Your game needs stellar graphics to sell.
b. Your game needs a minimum so that it’s graphics don’t hold your game back.

?

Those two sentences don’t have the same meaning.

The impact of graphics is largely overstated

What are you basing this assumption on? Your own personal wishes or hard evidence?

But I never understood, if this is true: Why is Stephen Sausage Roll successful (200k$+)? Why is Jeff Vogel still in business? Why has Gary Grigsby's War in the West likely made over 50k$? Why do people like Brigand: Oaxaca?

I looked up the games you’ve mentioned:
*Stephen Sausage Roll: coherent visually. Certainly meet the bare minimum.
*Vogel: game tailored to the resource limitations. Also coherent visually. Instead of trying to pull a realistic looking dragon, use a low-res representation.
*Brigand: Oaxaca: Quake style graphics. Devs made the most of the style they were going for. Low poly art used coherently.
*War in the West: simple art style. I’d say this one is really borderline but also people don’t play this game for the graphics.

I'm making a Dungeon Crawler, something that I wanted to do in years. I'm having fun, learning a fuck-ton, the game will make me a bit of money on the side.

That’s beside the point. We’re not discussing wether you’re enjoying making your game, I’m telling you that you should have someone to help you meet an (arbitrary) visual minimum for your game either by practicing your pixel skills or hiring someone who has the skills.

It’s weird to me that you don’t mind your fiancée providing art for your game but you’re not interested in working with an artist?

Anyway, I’ve said my piece which you disagree with. That’s your right.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

“only those who have done what I’ve done have valid opinions about game development”

Certainly not. But if it's the current state of discussions without much added, I think that you never looked deeper into it.

Most people who look at your game and judge it aren’t dev.

Exactly. But this is a business and personal preference decision in the game making progress. The process would be worse to me, it would be more costly, take longer (or the game would be worse if I stick to the same time-frame). Would this translate into so many more sales so that it would be worth it?

Humans like things which look good.

Obviously, I never denied that my game would sell better if it looked a lot better. The only thing that matters is the ratio.

What are you basing this assumption on?

I looked at a lot of counter examples. A lot of games which are called ugly, very ugly or horrendous still make decent money.

I looked up the games you’ve mentioned:

I used examples which are called ugly commonly. I don't think these are ugly either. But it will be hard to find an example that you specifically also think is ugly but proofs my point, since I don't know your measurement/taste, so I took games that gamers commonly call ugly.

It’s weird to me that you don’t mind your fiancée providing art for your game but you’re not interested in working with an artist?

I avoid working in teams as much as possible. That's another common idea, that Indie Devs need teams which I disagree with. Since it's my fiancee we have another dynamic.

a. Your game needs stellar graphics to sell.
b. Your game needs a minimum so that it’s graphics don’t hold your game back.

I have summed up the discussion. I don't think that my game would sell ten times more if the graphics were ten times as good. And I don't think that it would sell double the amount if the graphics quality was doubled (w/e that means). Or times 5 if it meets a treshhold. The point is the same either way: Make it look better then it will sell more. And that's true. But I don't think the ratio is worth it in many cases.
I meet my goals, that's what matters to me, so nothing is holding me back. Is it holding back in a sense that everything holds you back in a way if it's not better, sure. But is it worth it? I doubt it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

you should chain your fiancee to the desk and force her to draw sprites for the entire game

 

[bionicman]

When it comes to graphics, Moaning_Clock, I suggest you try and make some low-poly models in Blender, they don't need to have textures even, it could look okay. There's a trick in Blender (and any other 3d modelling software) to place a 2d image on one of the axis and then you can "draw" over it with the 3d tools to have a 3d model. Some sort of abstract 3d models of goblins, beholders, etc. could work nicely.

But ultimately, I don't believe graphics are a big problem for this game, one can always overlook the graphics like I did when I tried the demo. The bigger problem with this game is/was(?) the combat gameplay, but I already wrote about this in my previous post in this thread.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

you should chain your fiancee to the desk and force her to draw sprites for the entire game

She does great work but it takes a long time usually.

I suggest you try and make some low-poly models in Blender, they don't need to have textures even, it could look okay

I used blender a few years ago and really liked it. For this game I wanted to have the sprites in 3D spaces look, that was one of the intentions from the very beginning. I saw it in another game (Russia Battlegrounds lol, never even played it, inspiration is weird) and wanted to have it in a Dungeon Crawler.

But ultimately, I don't believe graphics are a big problem for this game, one can always overlook the graphics like I did when I tried the demo.

I took a second look at the colours (after your comment a couple of months ago) and reduced the variety a bit - it's not a big change but an improvement. My fiancee also advised me to change the dirt and water colour which look way better now I think. I also avoid "pure" colours now (0, 255, 0 etc., dunno what the artist term is) which also improved the visuals.

The bigger problem with this game is/was(?) the combat gameplay, but I already wrote about this in my previous post in this thread.

Since you played it, I made a few changes to the combat. It's now a tad longer than it was (instead of extremely short just very short), I added wounded versions of all enemies after a certain threshold and reduced the RNG. It's still very simple, I like it this way for this project. I see the appeal of more complex combat systems (I love Dungeon Rats, A Legionary's Life) but also like very simple ones (Myth Bearer) and decided ultimately for a simple (and a tad experimental) style for this game.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I wanted to do this for quite some time and now I finally made mouse movement available. Right now you can activate and deactivate by hitting enter.

Here without the "inventory/player"-screen

Here with the "inventory/player"-screen

After hunting down a bug for an hour or something and starting to work on a stupid hack, I finally found an extremely easy fix.



It's not fully implemented yet (it needs to be deactivated in dialogue for example) but for most of the gameplay it's working. I would certainly recommend to use the hotkeys nonetheless but this makes the game more accessible for those who won't (or can't) read the manual.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

That was way easier than I expected. It will be now deactivated in dialogue and some other areas. Still need to do a full run with it but it should be fine. I call this fully implemented!
The only thing that's missing is a way to notify the player how he can activate/deactivate it. I think this will be the introductory message and replace the text how the player can access the manual since most players should stumble upon the manual quite soon.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Had still a case were the mouse movement wasn't removed but should be and implemented that.

Made the numpad usable for playing since some people like to use it (lefthanded guys apparently). I had the option to change the weapon through the numpad to a specific one (1-5 for the weapon slots) but needed to disable that to make room for the movement, etc.

Spoiler

8564 for walking, 9 to wield/unwield, 7 to interact/attack, * for throwing bombs, 1 and 2 for potions and dialogue, + to change weapon, - to switch between the different menus

rn I have 9732 lines of code in the main script (albeit many lines are outcommented code or are almost duplicates) and will hit the 10k soon!

Also there is now a key which hides/unhides the upper UI if someone wants to take screenshots without the UI. It's the Pause-Key, it isn't listed in the in-game manual like F1-F8 etc.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I decided that I will make a manual, for machines that are under the threshold I call bare minimum (which is a Celeron G3900), so mostly old ThinkPads, think X220 etc.

Spoiler

There are several options to make the game perform better, some of them are hidden (would just clutter the game otherwise) and I want to write a guide for all the low-spec needs. Graphics wise it should be possible for the player to reduce the quality so much that it is even playable on very old hardware as long as it supports Open GL 2.1 (which is like everything in the last 15 years afaik) but I don't have an 15 year old GPU to verify that. On the CPU side the point of entry is low but I don't know how low exactly (but at least 10 years, since it works on a ThinkPad X220) since I don't have an instruction set or something which determines the minimum.

The game is currently in testing and I have the first half already! It's great to get some feedback from players since you tend to get a tunnel vision as a dev.

I redesigned the left and right rotate mouse movement keys, my fiancee said it would look better if they were more like the forward/backward key.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Got the recordings of the playthrough back! If you are developing a game, having access to recorded footage of playtesters is such a great tool.

Fixed a stupid crashbug which was introduced through an oversight but very easy to fix. There is another bug which I need to track down or have already (I couldn't reproduce it but the player - so I changed a lot of stuff but it's still poking in the darkness, we'll see). The playthrough took a little over 2 hours overall.
There's a puzzle which is a bit harder (until you get it). Thinking about how to improve that experience without dumbing it down too much or at all. Aside of that, it was fun overall and the player is looking forward to the next playthrough. I want to conduct a big playtest when the game is almost ready but this will still take some time.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

There is another bug which I need to track down or have already (I couldn't reproduce it but the player - so I changed a lot of stuff but it's still poking in the darkness, we'll see).

Finally, I could reproduce this bug. It was a copy paste error lol and the level didn't load properly. Instead of res://level_name.tscn I wrote res://res:/level_name.tscn. That doesn't need to make sense to you, since it doesn't make sense and couldn't be executed. The reason why it happened was that I always use the interact/attack button to go through doors and the player used the forward key and two different code things are executed - it's duplicated but this time I made an error and didn't copy paste properly. It's the first time my hesitation to write more functions actually produced a bug.

Two days ago I worked most of the day on Sonucido and tackled an area that seemed very hard to do but it wasn't as tedious as I imagined - quite the contrary. Still stuff to do but it's one of the biggest areas of the game and it's great to make some progress there!

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Worked a lot on a bigger area. I started building it quite a while ago and worked on it time and time again but now put longer stretches of work into it. It's not ready yet but if I would really need to I could finish a rough version of it in about an hour which is a good sign. Still want to put some attention to details into it etc. Wrote a lot of dialogue for it (by Dungeon Crawler standards).

I should record a new video - the last one was released on the 15th of February. I'm only 50 wishlists away from my goal of 1000. I didn't do a lot of marketing so it takes very long to get new wishlists rn.

After repairing/putting together an old PC for someone, I tested Sonucido on it and can conform that the game runs well on a i7-920 + Quadro 2000 machine! The oldest tech I have around is 10-11 years old and seeing that Sonucido runs well on a 14 year old processor and a 12 year old graphics card was pretty reassuring - 60 FPS with 1280x720, MSAA 4 - had only an old 4:3 monitor hooked up to it, so I didn't test it with higher res. Had a little bit fear that some instruction sets were missing which would be needed for Godot or something like that - but it works like a charme!

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Contagium]

Wishlisted. I'll buy this on release as long as it's not some ridiculous Pierre $44.99 or in that ballpark.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Wishlisted. I'll buy this on release as long as it's not some ridiculous Pierre $44.99 or in that ballpark.

Thanks!
I thought of a price range is between 9.99$ and 12.99$ depending on how long it is in the end.

 

[Tyranicon]

Wishlisted. I'll buy this on release as long as it's not some ridiculous Pierre $44.99 or in that ballpark.

Thanks!
I thought of a price range is between 9.99$ and 12.99$ depending on how long it is in the end.

Gamedevs undervalue their games in general. My rule of thumb is to take what you think is a fair price and increase it by 25%.

Pricing a RPG of any length (unless it's sub two hours) under $10 may lead potential customers to think it's a low effort product.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

Pricing a RPG of any length (unless it's sub two hours) under $10 may lead potential customers to think it's a low effort product.

Do you think 9.99$ is perceived as under 10$?

Gamedevs undervalue their games in general. My rule of thumb is to take what you think is a fair price and increase it by 25%.

You are right. It's funny because I'm of the same opinion and many games are sold way under there value even at full price (Legionary's Life for example, Dungeon Rats before and especially after the price drop, countless other examples.) GameDev and author colleagues always heard from me that their prices should be higher.
The reason for the price is that the game isn't incredible long. It will be 3-4 hours for the first playthrough. A second playthrough makes sense to see most of the game and adds maybe 2-3 hours more. But if somebody is dissatisfied with the game because it isn't 10+ hours long, he will also be grumpy about that if he paid 1-2 bucks less for it.

Thanks! I need to contemplate about this.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I had the sonucido dot com domain for a while now but didn't use it. My fiancee created a single page for Sonucido which was stylisticly seperate from the rest of SmokeSomeFrogs. Now we put that page on sonucido dot com.

In the process we also updated the texts a little and put new screenshots on that website since some of the UI changed and I wanted to show more of the variety Sonucido has to offer.

Take a look!

https://sonucido.com