So, World of Tanks, I play it, here's some criticism.

[Ulminati]

Ulminati, on the plus side, StuG III is going to earn 2xcredit from Friday till Tuesday.

I thought it was PzIV that got a credit boost this time around.

Of course, since my StuGIII is already completely blinged out and I've just about given up acquiring further tanks if WGNs official stance (as cited by a dev) is "Drive russian or die" there's nothing I need the extra credits for.

 

[Zdzisiu]

PzIV got a 10% credit boost for the whole June.

You need the extra credits for the russian vehicles, silly!

 

[Ulminati]

NEVER! : x

But the absurdly OP french TD tree looks alluring.

 

[trais]

Get Tiger (P), it's extremely fun and since it's not that popular it probably won't be hit by the nerfbat any time soon.

 

[Ulminati]

Get Tiger (P), it's extremely fun and since it's not that popular it probably won't be hit by the nerfbat any time soon.

Highest I got at the moment is VK3601(P). That leads into PsKpfw VI Tiger. Is the Tiger (P) noticably better compared to regular Tiger enough to warrant going through the VK3001(P) upgraded from PzKpfw IV? (I'd need about 20k xp on my PzIV to get that).

I'm also trying to grind past the Grille. I think the official wiki says it all.

• Below average hit points
• Below average engine power and traverse speed
• Below average armour
• Below average damage and rate of fire
• Below average accuracy, aim time, gun traverse speed, and gun arc
• Below average ammo capacity
• Below average signal range

 

[Zdzisiu]

Get Tiger (P), it's extremely fun and since it's not that popular it probably won't be hit by the nerfbat any time soon.

Highest I got at the moment is VK3601(P). That leads into PsKpfw VI Tiger. Is the Tiger (P) noticably better compared to regular Tiger enough to warrant going through the VK3001(P) upgraded from PzKpfw IV? (I'd need about 20k xp on my PzIV to get that).

I'm also trying to grind past the Grille. I think the official wiki says it all.

• Below average hit points
• Below average engine power and traverse speed
• Below average armour
• Below average damage and rate of fire
• Below average accuracy, aim time, gun traverse speed, and gun arc
• Below average ammo capacity
• Below average signal range

Wiki is quite bullshit about the cons of Grille. Lets see:
- Below average hit points: Grille 240, M7 240, SU-5 230
- Below average engine power and traverse speed: Grille 200hp at around 11t, M7 460hp at around 23t, SU-5 130hp at around 10.5t and traverse speed are: 22/20/30
- Below average armor: Grille 15/15/10, M7 12.7/12.7/12.7, SU-5 7/15/13
- Below average damage and rate of fire: Grille top gun 680dmgx3.5rpm=2380dpm, M7 top gun 410dmgx6.48rpm=2656.8dpm, SU-5 top gun 330dmgx6.56rpm=2164.8dpm
- Below average ammo capacity: Grille 18, M7 69, SU-5 14
- Below average signal range: Grille 710, M7 745, SU-5 615
I skiped the below average accuracy, aim time, gun traverse and gun arc but you can check them and they are similar and correspond to the trend of M7 being somewhat better but not much.
I'm not saying its super awesome, but it is definitly not below average compared to other tier IV artys.

 

[trais]

Ulminati
200mm frontal hull and 120 mm turret armor with tiny weakspots, armed with long 88. With proper angling your front is practically immune to anything your tier and below. Higher tier guns (105 mm and up) can quite reliably pen your turret (your hull is still quite bouncy-bouncy), but your frontal silhouette is smaller than Tiger's (H), so it's better in that regard too. On the cons side, it's slower than the other Tiger and you're more vulnerable from side attacks. You'll get best results when platooning with a friend who will be covering your ass, but even playing alone you'll get plenty of steel walls in this tank.

 

[Ulminati]

Wiki is quite bullshit about the cons of Grille. Lets see:
- Below average hit points: Grille 240, M7 240, SU-5 230

So average.

- Below average engine power and traverse speed: Grille 200hp at around 11t, M7 460hp at around 23t, SU-5 130hp at around 10.5t and traverse speed are: 22/20/30

Average traverse = 24deg/s. Grille = 22. Engine/weight ratio: Grille 18hp/t, M7 20 hp/t, SU5 13 hp/t. Avg: 17 hp/t

- Below average armor: Grille 15/15/10, M7 12.7/12.7/12.7, SU-5 7/15/13

Grille wins. Of course, since arty is usually one of the lowest tiers in a game, every shot will penetrate all of those values regardless. Also, SU front armor is weaker than side AND rear?

- Below average damage and rate of fire: Grille top gun 680dmgx3.5rpm=2380dpm, M7 top gun 410dmgx6.48rpm=2656.8dpm, SU-5 top gun 330dmgx6.56rpm=2164.8dpm

Average: 2400

- Below average ammo capacity: Grille 18, M7 69, SU-5 14

Average: 33.6

- Below average signal range: Grille 710, M7 745, SU-5 615

Average: 690

I skiped the below average accuracy, aim time, gun traverse and gun arc but you can check them

I probably should, since those are the factors that determine if you actually hit anything. That is, the most goddamn important stats for arty after damage/shell. Especially when the Grille DPM comes from high damage and long reload time, so missing/time repnt acquiring a target hurts its DPM more than its USA/USSR counterparts.

Accuracy: Grille: 0.55m M7: 0.56m SU-5: 0.49m Average: 0.53m
Aim time: Grille: 5.14s M7: 5.15s SU-5: 4.57s Average: 4.95s
Gun traverse speed: Grille: 17mm M7: 18mm SU-5: 18mm Average: 17,67mm
Gun arc: Grille: +/-5deg M7: +/-23deg SU-5: +/-10deg Average: +/-12.7deg

I'm not saying its super awesome, but it is definitly not below average compared to other tier IV artys.

From the above it is:
Average hp - ok decent. May mean the difference between neededin 2 or 3 shots to kill in some circumstances
Below average turning speed - important when finding a target
Above average cruising speed - but arty is mostly static
Above average armor, but every tank that spots it is likely to penetrate any tier IV arty regardless of where it shoots.
Below average DPM. Way, way below average reloading time. Way above average damage per shot assuming you hit.
Below average ammo capacity.
Slightly above average signal range.
Below average accuracy.
Below average aim time.
Below average gun traverse speed.
Way, way below average gun arc.

From this we can decide that:
1) The grille is slightly more durable than its counterparts. This will in a best case scenario let it survive 1 shot more if spotted, 2 shots in extreme scenarios. But it will most likely get one-shotted by anything tier 5 or above if seen. It also has the largest profile of the 3 artillery pieces so it is easiest to hit.
2) If shooting at a completely static target for the entire match, the grille will do slightly more damage than a SU-5 but somewhat less than a M7. (Actually way, way less since the M7 will have tons of ammo left over once the Grill and SU-5 run out)
3) The traverse speeds and aiming speeds means the grille will take far longer to acquire a target - especially because the longer reload time means missing is more costly so you'll want to be absolutely certain. This is critical since smart tankers won't remain visible for long if they can avoid it.
4) The tiny, tiny gun arc is an absolute killer, since it means the Grille has to move its hull far more frequently. This resets the aiming timer to a far larger degree than simply rotating the gun.

In conclusion:
The grille is inferior to its US/USSR counterparts in every category that is relevant for a SPG. It will have a harder time acquiring a target. It will have to take more chances with incomplete aim since it has to aim longer and more frequently. Missing your shots - which is more likely because of aforementioned aiming issues - is twice as costly in damage dealt as for its counterparts. It is unquestionably the worst Tier IV artillery.

[edit]
The M7 and in paticular the SU-5 also fire in higher ballistic arcs than the Grille, meaning they will have an easier time shooting past terrain obstacles.

German tank worse in all aspects? In Soviet WoT?

trais
Ah, I hadn't noticed the difference in frontal armor. That is indeed very, very sweet. I'm tempted to grind for it but worried it will get nerfed once SerB notices that Superior Russian Weaponry cannot penetrate frontal armor using autoaim. He is then likely to "correct" this issue by fabricating discovering historical evidence that the germans turned to aluminium armor plating instead of steel to combat weight issues. A bit like how he arbitrarily decided that the E-type series should have a (highly combustible) frontal transmission, even though a rear transmission were one of the stated design objectives for the E-series, the hulls used in the E-series had no room for a transmission behind the lower front plate, the surviving blueprints for the design depicting a rear transmission and engine transmissions generally being made entirely out of metal and thus not flammable at all.

 

[trais]

Ulminati
Well, the original design had only 100mm front plate, with additional 100mm bolted later or. While every but one Tiger (P) was repurposed as Ferdinand/Elefant TD, the one which was in service had this additional armor. You can see in on a photo in this thread http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/84534-tiger-p-and-the-armor/
Although I don't know how close to the Berlin that photo was taken, so it still might turn out that it wasn't a steel plate, but 100mm thick coat of paint made to look like steel plate. Or whatever.

 

[Ulminati]

Indeed. the wisdom of Comrade SerB dictates that the amount of truth decreases the closer you move to Berlin.

God I wish I was making this up. He actually said that.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Just had a draw with both sides capturing 100% at the same second, daym.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Ulminati, I do not disagree that German tanks are fucked by the devs in many aspects, I drive mostly German tanks, with the exception of Russian T 50 so I know exactly what you are talking about. It just not that much of a problem (If a problem at all) for tier IV arty.

You need to remember that alpha damage is probably the most important stat for arty as you are usually going to get one shot at your target before it hides behind a building or a rock seeing that it is targeted. And here Grille has a clear advantage.

As for the accuracy I would say that is a second in importance, right there with aim time and those are very similar for all tier IV arty, the difference of 0.06m or 0.57s is insignificant. Remember that the aim time difference is 0.57s only between Grille and SU-5 and SU-5 still has lower DPM and not even half of the alpha damage of Grille.

I do agree that the very small gun arc is a problem for Grille, I was really suprised when I moved from GW Panther which has -26/+26deg and is really great because of that. Even Hummel has like -15/+15deg.

As for the higher ballistic art of M7 and SU-5, it also means that a round takes longer to get to its destination and it is a factor while trying to hit a moving target.

The ammo issue, from my own experience, in not much of issue at all. You hardly ever manage to use all of the 18 rounds, at least I did it only a few times. But I do wonder where the hell does M7 put all those 69 of 105mm shells.

Finally, there is a reason why Grille is nearly the only IV arty you can see on medium tank companies. You simply need a big bang with your every hit as nobody will stay in one place to let you make use of your superior RoF.

But as I said, I agree that German tanks are screwed in many places, being it penetration and the super magical way WG recalculated the German penetration tests to compare them with Russian tests. Or the fact that King Tiger is way bigger in game that it was in reality, and only Russian IS-es gets reduced in size due to historical accuracy. Or the fact that most maps are rather small and the ever mentioned superior accuracy of German guns simply have no place to shine. The longest shot you probably can take with a tank is something arround 600m - 700m in game and in reality German tanks were able to hit and damage Russian tanks at distances up to twice that. Or the fact that penetration is dropping with distance so we are in a paradox where accurate German guns suffer even more because they start with lower penetration than Russian and then its lowered even more when you use your gun in the only way that makes sens for an accurate gun, namely sniping from affair.

See, I know of all those problems and I suffer because of them too, I just dont think any of the tier IV artys present a clear advantage, and if pressed I would have to say that in my opinion Grille is the best tier IV arty, but not by far.

 

[Ulminati]

I'm going to argue that the doubled load time combined with the abysmal gun arc means you're going to spend far, far more time trying to acquire a target. Not just switching between targets. The mere act of tracking a moving target while waiting for aim/reload will frequently nudge your hull, forcing the aim ing circle to reset. Unless you have a very good scout to acquire spotting information for you (unlikely in random games, especially low-tier random games where the Grille will be placed) the grille is fatally crippled when it comes to actually hitting things. The inability to reliably acquire a target before it moves/vision is lost wrecks havoc on your alpha damage since you'll be doing 0 damage to several targets that a Soviet Power Gun™ would be able to shoot at.
I also regularly run out of ammunition with my Grille in normal games.

The M7 by comparison has a faster loading time, faster aim (due to the absurd gun arc) and basically just carpet-bombs an area since it literally won't run out of ammunition if it fires continuously as fast as it can reload for the entire match.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Well, I never played M7 so I cant give you any reliable information about it but I never saw an M7 being feared as an arty or exceptionaly well in a battle. But thats just my biased opinion as I fear the boom of Grille way more than the gentle smack of M7.

Admitedly, I dont have that much experience in Grille, Im more of a Hummel and GW Panther player as I went from Panzer III/IV to Hummel skipping low tier arty nearly completly at first.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

Why even play a game which has been tainted by dev bias? Or perhaps you enjoy breathing in the vodka-addled breath of Ivan each and every day as he explains just why GLORIOUS CCCP IS BEST TANK CREATOR IN ENTIRE WORLD

ALSO KARL MARX HAD A HUGE PENIS AND STALIN WRESTLED HITLER TO DEATH TRUST ME COMRADE MINISTRY OF TRUTH TOLD ME CORRECT VERSION OF HISTORY

 

[Ulminati]

SV, it's time for your pills again.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I can't hear you over the sound of Ivan's cock in your mouth.

 

[Ulminati]

Since the M10 is on sale I decided I'd grind amerikwanzanian tank destroyers. I'm currently up to the T40. My thoughts now that the T40 is fully upgraded -- HOLY SHIT!

Ok, so it can't hit the broad side of a barn from more than 5 meters away. But the gun traverse arc is nuts when you're used to StuG-III/hetzer, the reload time is pretty decent and who needs aiming for weak spots when your tier IV tank can penetrate frontal armor of tier VII's? Hull down I managed to bounce 6 successive shots. I know I've been whining about germans having it hard but I didn't realize just how disgustingly UP they were until I gave the other nations a whirl. I'm looking at the 18.18 rd/min firing rate of the 76mm M1A2 for the M10 and practically salivating at the thought of how much lead I'll be able to pump into the air once I get a rammer installed and a 100% crew.

I guess Wargaming.net should be applauded for their adherence to historical accuracy. Given that the russian tanks outnumbered the germans, the german tanks being made of thin sheets of flammable magnesium and armed with BB guns and germany still managing to push as far into Russia as they did, german tankers must've been true aryan übermensch compared to the thirdworldian slavic filth of Russia.

 

[trais]

Have fun while it lasts, because both Wolverine and Slugger are pretty shitty. Penetration on 76mm M1A2 is just not enough on it's tier. 90mm gun on Slugger is pretty good, but the armor is meh, mobility is meh and both turret traverse and gun depression is nerfed to the ground compared to their RL performance. T25 AT is incline, but it loses a turret. I'm currently grinding T28 and it's shit so far, maybe the 120mm gun will push it into "good for what it is" territory.

 

[Ulminati]

Eh, I stopped caring about tier 6-10 tanks since it's clear WG.net wants everyone to drive glorious USSR übertanks. Once they get their physics engine implemented, we will finally have historically accurate soviet hovertanks capable of hitting top armor well out of range of pitiful imperialist vertical gun depression!

 

[Ion Prothon II]

Have fun while it lasts, because both Wolverine and Slugger are pretty shitty. Penetration on 76mm M1A2 is just not enough on it's tier. 90mm gun on Slugger is pretty good, but the armor is meh, mobility is meh and both turret traverse and gun depression is nerfed to the ground compared to their RL performance.

That's why I recommend M18. It has the same shitty characteristics, but it's fast. And fast TD is alive TD.

 

[Ulminati]

Have fun while it lasts, because both Wolverine and Slugger are pretty shitty. Penetration on 76mm M1A2 is just not enough on it's tier. 90mm gun on Slugger is pretty good, but the armor is meh, mobility is meh and both turret traverse and gun depression is nerfed to the ground compared to their RL performance.

That's why I recommend M18. It has the same shitty characteristics, but it's fast. And fast TD is alive TD.

My plan was to get the M10->M18 then keep an elite M18 and T40 in my garage alongside my elite StuG III, elite PzKpfw IV, elite PzKpfw III, fully upgraded Grille and fully upgraded VK3601(H).
After that, my grinding goals will be Grille->hummel, then american arty up to priest, then PzKpfW IV -> VK3001(P) -> Tiger(P).
If I'm still playing at that point, I'll look into turning my AMX 12t into a Lorraine or Bat Shat. But maybe I'll just end up going LOLOLOLOLOLO CROISSANT and picking up the WTFBROKEN ARL V39 if it keeps it's 200+mm penetration on standard shells going live.

 

[trais]

Yeah, at first I was like "French tanks? Pfffffffft", but the more I play against them the more CROISSANT tech tree is tempting me. Especially that AMX 13 90. It's like M18 Hellokitty (90mm gun, fast, no armor) except with autoloader.

 

[Ulminati]

ALORS! IL Y A UN GRAND CHEVAL BLEU! FROMAGE DU MERDE!

...Oh, hey. Your entire team just exploded to my autoloading trollgun.

If you go frogfucker before the patch, you need to save up some free xp to skip AMX 38 and AMX 40. The AMX 40 "bathtub" in paticular is torture to play through. The AMX 12t is barely passable. It's got a decent gun but nonexistent armor, traverse, engine power and gun depression. It's best played as a sniper to prevent the hideous aiming time whenever you're moving your hull and to migitate the lack of gun depression somewhat. From AMX 1375 onwards the frenchies become really good.

 

[trais]

Ah shit, no frenchies for me any time soon then. I only played T29 in superbeta and I really want to own it now, so I need free exp to skip as much as it's possible of T1 heavy and M6 which were always cock-blocking me. Researching modules on T1 already cost me a part of my soul and I'll need about 30k free exp to get 90mm gun on M6 when I'll finally get it.