Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[Cadmus]

Hahaha I remember those videos but I ain't gonna watch them again after having finally completed my chemotherapy.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Codex is known for its harsh language and insults flying left and right so you should visit Site Feedback and request "Safe Space" tag from the moderators. That way everyone knows that you should be left alone.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Yeah I'm new here and I've been "skeptical" about using sites like this for various reasons. NMA and duck and cover are the same way. I have nothing against the sites or their members, it's just that I've found that a lot of the members come across as rude at times and a lot of their "complaints", are a bit exaggerated to say the least.



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Hyperbole on the internet? GARSH! This whole thread is facetious, the Codex vastly prefers Skyrim to Oblivion, that alone puts a nail in your shitty nostalgia argument.
You come off as a typical reddit/surface internet user that thinks pointing out how the community is perceived as toxic is enough to make up for your lack of substantive argument. "You guys exaggerate" is an empty defense, people who drop by NMA or the Codex to criticize their negativity usually fail to actually produce counterargument, and then end up being naysayers in their own sycophantic circlejerks where their shit arguments only need upboats to stay afloat.

Granted there are some scummy luddites that take issue with the dumbest shit. I mean, quest markers?? Compass? Give me a fucking break. You however, are painting yourself as the direct antithesis to the worst Codex/NMA edgelords, by dismissing legitimate criticism against complete irredeemable shit with only garbage youtube videos to back you up, you definitely fail at distinguishing yourself from the one track and biased haters, you just come in shill flavor instead.
I mean, yes, quest markers are fine, and there's nothing wrong with being able to join every guild. I would understand if the guilds were warring factions, but they aren't. The problem with Skyrim's guilds is how they require no effort or skill to join, you could be a worthless PoS non-mage with no skills and then be made leader at then end of it. That's moronic, what it should have is genuine hurdles related to the craft you're actually attempting to advance.
And defending level scaling? If ever there was a boring, lazy and shit tier design decision, it's the horribly linear and bland system of level scaling, every piece of loot, every encounter, every bit of armor or weapon you run into is predetermined to be completely catered to your current level, no sense of real danger, no variation in encounters, locations are never truly unique, just boring artificial progression that destroys immersion and the feeling of accomplishment you get in real RPGs.
As for essential NPCs, it's boring, stupid, gives you no freedom, takes away from Muh Immurshun and the impact of your actions, basically, you can't play what you want, but instead, a cookie cutter hero that kills generic bandits for the immortal townsfolk, if you're a thief and get caught, don't expect to be able to fight your way out, because immortal NPCs, they have a dark brotherhood guild, but you can't murder for Sithis unless your quest tells you to, if you can't see why this feature is stupid yet, there's no helping you, I'm sure there's an Elder Scrolls Facebook club that'd be happy to have you.

Ultimately, I'd give Skyrim a 6/10 or something, it's a decent game, with my collection of 9 billion mods it's more than just playable, but even fans don't argue that it isn't mindless. If it actually made you think or provided some sort of mental stimulation then you must be deficient, there isn't anything in Skyrim that could have that effect, doesn't bother me, but I think you're pretty bad at picking your fights; Skyrim is a derp game.

 

[CrawlingDead]

Yah. This totally legit non-troll not-jcd-alt should also stop by in the Fallout 4 thread and explain it was streamlined because the technology made writing and stats obsolete "and that's a good thing"
The problem with making retarded sounding accounts like "xxPwner98PL" is that when I wanted to make an account like this elsewhere I realized I need my pretend age to be in the 2000s in order to be a stupid teen and that's a hard nick to make without looking suspicious.

I'm not intending to come across as trollish. Also, there is a reason behind my account name, you don't have to make fun of it.


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Look, you're on the Codex. Nobody gives a fuck here, we insult and berate each other even over the classic titles. It's just the atmosphere here. If you like Oblivion and Skyrim -- defend your point of view. Don't attempt to vilify anyone just because they hate a game you like, and you need to grow some thicker skin if you're going to be here. If I say you're acting like a bitch, you have every right to say the same thing to me, and I might even brofist your stupid ass.

Try actually defending your arguments, make them well-reasoned, debate them. This isn't a place to say you like a game and then say that everyone is just a simple hater, when these people are actually defending their arguments with semi-thought out points.

Also, NMA is a great forum, that's nothing like here, at all. In fact, there are a ton of people who like Skyrim and Fallout 4 over there.

 

[xkilljoy98]

Hyperbole on the internet? GARSH! This whole thread is facetious, the Codex vastly prefers Skyrim to Oblivion, that alone puts a nail in your shitty nostalgia argument.
You come off as a typical reddit/surface internet user that thinks pointing out how the community is perceived as toxic is enough to make up for your lack of substantive argument. "You guys exaggerate" is an empty defense, people who drop by NMA or the Codex to criticize their negativity usually fail to actually produce counterargument, and then end up being naysayers in their own sycophantic circlejerks where their shit arguments only need upboats to stay afloat.

Granted there are some scummy luddites that take issue with the dumbest shit. I mean, quest markers?? Compass? Give me a fucking break. You however, are painting yourself as the direct antithesis to the worst Codex/NMA edgelords, by dismissing legitimate criticism against complete irredeemable shit with only garbage youtube videos to back you up, you definitely fail at distinguishing yourself from the one track and biased haters, you just come in shill flavor instead.
I mean, yes, quest markers are fine, and there's nothing wrong with being able to join every guild. I would understand if the guilds were warring factions, but they aren't. The problem with Skyrim's guilds is how they require no effort or skill to join, you could be a worthless PoS non-mage with no skills and then be made leader at then end of it. That's moronic, what it should have is genuine hurdles related to the craft you're actually attempting to advance.
And defending level scaling? If ever there was a boring, lazy and shit tier design decision, it's the horribly linear and bland system of level scaling, every piece of loot, every encounter, every bit of armor or weapon you run into is predetermined to be completely catered to your current level, no sense of real danger, no variation in encounters, locations are never truly unique, just boring artificial progression that destroys immersion and the feeling of accomplishment you get in real RPGs.
As for essential NPCs, it's boring, stupid, gives you no freedom, takes away from Muh Immurshun and the impact of your actions, basically, you can't play what you want, but instead, a cookie cutter hero that kills generic bandits for the immortal townsfolk, if you're a thief and get caught, don't expect to be able to fight your way out, because immortal NPCs, they have a dark brotherhood guild, but you can't murder for Sithis unless your quest tells you to, if you can't see why this feature is stupid yet, there's no helping you, I'm sure there's an Elder Scrolls Facebook club that'd be happy to have you.

Ultimately, I'd give Skyrim a 6/10 or something, it's a decent game, with my collection of 9 billion mods it's more than just playable, but even fans don't argue that it isn't mindless. If it actually made you think or provided some sort of mental stimulation then you must be deficient, there isn't anything in Skyrim that could have that effect, doesn't bother me, but I think you're pretty bad at picking your fights; Skyrim is a derp game.

I specifically told you that I didn't feel like typing a lot since it was late. I stand by that a lot of people here have exaggerated and pointless complaints, you need not look further than this thread to see that, but if those things/your points bother(s) you that much, fine I don't care.


Just forgot I said I said anything, I'll leave.


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[xkilljoy98]

Look, you're on the Codex. Nobody gives a fuck here, we insult and berate each other even over the classic titles. It's just the atmosphere here. If you like Oblivion and Skyrim -- defend your point of view. Don't attempt to vilify anyone just because they hate a game you like, and you need to grow some thicker skin if you're going to be here. If I say you're acting like a bitch, you have every right to say the same thing to me, and I might even brofist your stupid ass.

Try actually defending your arguments, make them well-reasoned, debate them. This isn't a place to say you like a game and then say that everyone is just a simple hater, when these people are actually defending their arguments with semi-thought out points.

Also, NMA is a great forum, that's nothing like here, at all. In fact, there are a ton of people who like Skyrim and Fallout 4 over there.

I specifically told you that I didn't feel like typing a lot since it was late. I stand by that a lot of people here have exaggerated and pointless complaints, you need not look further than this thread to see that, but if those things/your points bother(s) you that much, fine I don't care.


Just forgot I said I said anything, I'll leave.






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[xkilljoy98]

This will be my final argument (probably).


Level scaling isn't that bad in fact it can be seen as a good thing. When enemies level with you that means that you will always be provided with somewhat of a challenge, now sure you don't encounter the situations where you have to level up more and the come back, but depending on your perspective level scaling works just as well in certain ways.


The lack of freedom isn't that much of an argument, because if anything they give you more freedom. By removing the restrictions for guilds they give more freedom to do what ever you want, if you want to join every guild, do it, if you don't, don't. As far as kill able npcs go, well not everyone goes on murder sprees. Even then there is a reason they did it. If a character is traveling and they get killed by a bandit on the way there then that means that the quest involved would be inaccessible to the player for unfair reasons.


As far as leveling, there were certain skills that came across as pointless to have, and thus by having the skills you have in the newer elder scrolls games it is easier to see how you want to level up your character, because the skills are divided up into three sections, warrior, stealth, and mage.


If you had given me time I would have given my points like I said. Again I specifically told you that it was late and I didn't feel like typing that much, and that I might get to it sometime later.


That is my argument, I could talk about more and go more in depth, but I don't have the time right now.


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[Hirato]

This will be my final argument (probably).

And they're not very strong either.

Level scaling isn't that bad in fact it can be seen as a good thing. When enemies level with you that means that you will always be provided with somewhat of a challenge, now sure you don't encounter the situations where you have to level up more and the come back, but depending on your perspective level scaling works just as well in certain ways

Except with how Bethesda does it, you don't get stronger than your enemies unless you focus excessively on combat based skills.
Level scaling isn't always bad, for example Wizardry 8 increased the amount and variety of monsters up to a point in each area.

Bethesda's approach has given the practice a very bad name.
They scale enemies, so you'll generally need to stay somewhat cautious or just cheese your way though enemies by sniping them; you'll never be able to just steam roll your former nemesis using reckless strategies that would've gotten you killed instantly earlier.
They also scale the loot, so you'll find a magical super powerful weapon in a cave somewhere, only for its abilities to be eclipsed by a standard glass sword 5 levels later; though if you had waited 5 levels before grabbing said weapon, you'd find a version that's more powerful than the glass sword - this is why 'unleveled leveled loot list' mods are so popular.

The lack of freedom isn't that much of an argument, because if anything they give you more freedom. By removing the restrictions for guilds they give more freedom to do what ever you want, if you want to join every guild, do it, if you don't, don't. As far as kill able npcs go, well not everyone goes on murder sprees. Even then there is a reason they did it. If a character is traveling and they get killed by a bandit on the way there then that means that the quest involved would be inaccessible to the player for unfair reasons.

It's not about freedom, it's about verisimilitude, and Pete Hines has basically stated on twitter that their position on this stuff is "lol, who cares".
Meatheads who can't cast spells should not be the leader of a mage guild, they probably shouldn't even be in said guild in the first place.
People who indiscriminately murder with many witnesses and otherwise attracting far too much negative attention has very little place in the dark brotherhood.
Squishy mages and rogues who can't take a few blows aren't fit to lead the fighters guild, and probably aren't fit to be part of it either.

This extends to all the other retarded shit you can do in Bethesda games, like give 10 bottles of water to a beggar to have the karma offset your murder spree from earlier.
And NPC death isn't an issue, particularly in Skyrim; Bethesda's solution to it is actually quite ingenuous; For an NPC to be killed, they must die in a scripted event, or the player must have stuck the finishing blow.

But generally speaking, Bethesda can't design quests with a logical, natural flow worth shit.
They suck at offering alternative solutions to problems and designing quests with multiple cascading fail states.
They'll often end quests prematurely if you kill a related NPC who no longer has any role left in the quest, and their goto solution for this problem - you guessed it - is to make said NPCs unkillable.

As far as leveling, there were certain skills that came across as pointless to have, and thus by having the skills you have in the newer elder scrolls games it is easier to see how you want to level up your character, because the skills are divided up into three sections, warrior, stealth, and mage.

I do think the skill system is overall a huge step up from Oblivion, but many of its choices are questionable.
My biggest gripes with it are the removal of stats, the removal of the mysticism school (and its very useful utilities), and its hardcoded nature that prevents modders from creating new ones leveraging the same systems.

And it's not like it'd ever been hard to pick the skills you want to focus on.
To my knowledge, it's only ever been a trap in Oblivion, where you'd want your least used skills to be your major skills, so that the level scaling doesn't present you with healthsponges in daedric armour, while you're still trying to get your bearings in your prison rags.

 

[typical user]

This will be my final argument (probably).


Level scaling isn't that bad in fact it can be seen as a good thing. When enemies level with you that means that you will always be provided with somewhat of a challenge, now sure you don't encounter the situations where you have to level up more and the come back, but depending on your perspective level scaling works just as well in certain ways.

The problem with Skyrim's level scaling is you meet some draugr zombies at level 1, you kill them no problem. 20 levels later you meet again draugr zombies but now you need to bash them 20 times because they are "murder-boss deathkings". Your enemies get stronger because you've been leveling lockpicking, smithing and other non-combat skills and you struggle against beefed up enemies. But it's just a tip of a problem. Your enemies don't change, their stats change. You will fight draugr, bandits, falmer and other crap all the time. Your dragons will just change skin color and behave same. When you are playing game that has no level-scaled enemies you feel progression. If you play dragon-slayer you expect to kill petty bandits by spitting in their direction and that typical trash mobs would run in terror away from you while you struggle with mythical creatures now but nope, you just have bandit chief in glass armor now. Level scaling isn't bad mechanic but more often than not it is poorly executed like in Skyrim.

The lack of freedom isn't that much of an argument, because if anything they give you more freedom. By removing the restrictions for guilds they give more freedom to do what ever you want, if you want to join every guild, do it, if you don't, don't. As far as kill able npcs go, well not everyone goes on murder sprees. Even then there is a reason they did it. If a character is traveling and they get killed by a bandit on the way there then that means that the quest involved would be inaccessible to the player for unfair reasons.

Where is replayability in this? I joined all factions at once and never bothered to try Skyrim again. Oh wait, I tried but I got bored to the point I gave up this game because I knew I don't need to min-max my character, I don't need to make choices. I tried to LARP and abstain from joining mages and companions but you can do that so long before giving up. The other problem with this "RPG" is that you can throw roleplaying aspect out of window and you are left just with game. If I join thieves guild and progress in ranks I would expect to be expelled from mages or anything like it. It is immersion-breaking to be leader of assassin guild, archmage, master thief, hero of companions etc. In other words it is stupid. The only freedom is that I don't need to start new game.

As far as leveling, there were certain skills that came across as pointless to have, and thus by having the skills you have in the newer elder scrolls games it is easier to see how you want to level up your character, because the skills are divided up into three sections, warrior, stealth, and mage.

I tried playing as a mage and I was running with conjured sword all the time. Playing mage in unmodded Skyrim is IMPOSSIBLE. Your spells don't do shit to level 40 draugrs, you quickly run out of mana and your enemies bum-rush you so if you go squishy you will die in seconds. As a thief when you reach level 60 sneak you become invisible to your enemies but level design is atrocious so you can't sneak by, you have to assassinate them pretty much every time.

And if there are useless skills then this system is far from perfect. You can level up lockpick and speechcraft by just playing the darn thing. What's the point of training these abilities when you could use your time and develop skills you will have hard time to increase? When you get to 100 lockpick, you can open every chest without trouble so why put perk points there? Same for speechcraft, you only use it to sell things at better prices and sometimes to persuade someone but the game is generous and you can punch them in their face and get what you wanted anyway.

I like to play games which offer challenge and require thinking. Skyrim is shit as I got bored in first two hours. I didn't play Oblivion and I won't because I know those games offer pretty much same gameplay.

 

[xkilljoy98]

The problem with Skyrim's level scaling is you meet some draugr zombies at level 1, you kill them no problem. 20 levels later you meet again draugr zombies but now you need to bash them 20 times because they are "murder-boss deathkings". Your enemies get stronger because you've been leveling lockpicking, smithing and other non-combat skills and you struggle against beefed up enemies. But it's just a tip of a problem. Your enemies don't change, their stats change. You will fight draugr, bandits, falmer and other crap all the time. Your dragons will just change skin color and behave same. When you are playing game that has no level-scaled enemies you feel progression. If you play dragon-slayer you expect to kill petty bandits by spitting in their direction and that typical trash mobs would run in terror away from you while you struggle with mythical creatures now but nope, you just have bandit chief in glass armor now. Level scaling isn't bad mechanic but more often than not it is poorly executed like in Skyrim.



Where is replayability in this? I joined all factions at once and never bothered to try Skyrim again. Oh wait, I tried but I got bored to the point I gave up this game because I knew I don't need to min-max my character, I don't need to make choices. I tried to LARP and abstain from joining mages and companions but you can do that so long before giving up. The other problem with this "RPG" is that you can throw roleplaying aspect out of window and you are left just with game. If I join thieves guild and progress in ranks I would expect to be expelled from mages or anything like it. It is immersion-breaking to be leader of assassin guild, archmage, master thief, hero of companions etc. In other words it is stupid. The only freedom is that I don't need to start new game.



I tried playing as a mage and I was running with conjured sword all the time. Playing mage in unmodded Skyrim is IMPOSSIBLE. Your spells don't do shit to level 40 draugrs, you quickly run out of mana and your enemies bum-rush you so if you go squishy you will die in seconds. As a thief when you reach level 60 sneak you become invisible to your enemies but level design is atrocious so you can't sneak by, you have to assassinate them pretty much every time.

And if there are useless skills then this system is far from perfect. You can level up lockpick and speechcraft by just playing the darn thing. What's the point of training these abilities when you could use your time and develop skills you will have hard time to increase? When you get to 100 lockpick, you can open every chest without trouble so why put perk points there? Same for speechcraft, you only use it to sell things at better prices and sometimes to persuade someone but the game is generous and you can punch them in their face and get what you wanted anyway.

I like to play games which offer challenge and require thinking. Skyrim is shit as I got bored in first two hours. I didn't play Oblivion and I won't because I know those games offer pretty much same gameplay.

And they're not very strong either.



Except with how Bethesda does it, you don't get stronger than your enemies unless you focus excessively on combat based skills.
Level scaling isn't always bad, for example Wizardry 8 increased the amount and variety of monsters up to a point in each area.

Bethesda's approach has given the practice a very bad name.
They scale enemies, so you'll generally need to stay somewhat cautious or just cheese your way though enemies by sniping them; you'll never be able to just steam roll your former nemesis using reckless strategies that would've gotten you killed instantly earlier.
They also scale the loot, so you'll find a magical super powerful weapon in a cave somewhere, only for its abilities to be eclipsed by a standard glass sword 5 levels later; though if you had waited 5 levels before grabbing said weapon, you'd find a version that's more powerful than the glass sword - this is why 'unleveled leveled loot list' mods are so popular.




It's not about freedom, it's about verisimilitude, and Pete Hines has basically stated on twitter that their position on this stuff is "lol, who cares".
Meatheads who can't cast spells should not be the leader of a mage guild, they probably shouldn't even be in said guild in the first place.
People who indiscriminately murder with many witnesses and otherwise attracting far too much negative attention has very little place in the dark brotherhood.
Squishy mages and rogues who can't take a few blows aren't fit to lead the fighters guild, and probably aren't fit to be part of it either.

This extends to all the other retarded shit you can do in Bethesda games, like give 10 bottles of water to a beggar to have the karma offset your murder spree from earlier.
And NPC death isn't an issue, particularly in Skyrim; Bethesda's solution to it is actually quite ingenuous; For an NPC to be killed, they must die in a scripted event, or the player must have stuck the finishing blow.

But generally speaking, Bethesda can't design quests with a logical, natural flow worth shit.
They suck at offering alternative solutions to problems and designing quests with multiple cascading fail states.
They'll often end quests prematurely if you kill a related NPC who no longer has any role left in the quest, and their goto solution for this problem - you guessed it - is to make said NPCs unkillable.



I do think the skill system is overall a huge step up from Oblivion, but many of its choices are questionable.
My biggest gripes with it are the removal of stats, the removal of the mysticism school (and its very useful utilities), and its hardcoded nature that prevents modders from creating new ones leveraging the same systems.

And it's not like it'd ever been hard to pick the skills you want to focus on.
To my knowledge, it's only ever been a trap in Oblivion, where you'd want your least used skills to be your major skills, so that the level scaling doesn't present you with healthsponges in daedric armour, while you're still trying to get your bearings in your prison rags.

(This is a reply to both of you)

I gave you want you wanted, an argument, and yet you complain that it's not a very good one.


I guess we must be playing different games, because by the end of the game, I find it easier to fight enemies at a higher level while still being provided with a challenge. If you level up your skills in combat it helps. I also didn't find playing as a mage that hard.


I was referring to skills in oblivion and morrowind, not Skyrim. Also, leveling up skills while playing is more realistic than just increasing them. You said that you wanted more realism yet you complain about this, you just contradicted your self.



Not every game has to be realistic, it's meant for entertainment, not 100% realism. Again, you don't have to join every guild/faction if you don't want to. In fact there are times such as the civil war and dawnguard where you have to choose a side. As far as replayability goes, there are times when there is choice involved, such as daedric quests, dark brotherhood, etc. I also didn't find it immersion breaking.




Just because the karma system can be exploited does not mean that it is a bad system (at least in principle).



You mentioned that you like games with challenge and thinking, perhaps you would enjoy more puzzle based games, or games that are heavily philosophical or scientific.


If you don't mind, could we please end this conversation? It is going nowhere.







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[Miner Arobar]

Level scaling in Oblivion and Skyrim are not entirely the same thing, though. I've yet to encounter bandits dressed in daedric or glass armour in Skyrim. And the main quest design in Oblivion meant that if you were to play as you're directed, you'd be saving Kvatch from an invasion of puny stunted scamps. In Skyrim things still go way too fast (levelling also - last time I played vanilla I gained five or so levels in Bleak Falls Barrow) but it's a lot better - there's some bottlenecks like the frost troll on the mountain path, some points where you can put off the next step for a while like finding the horn for the greybeards, you're not rushed ahead all the time like in Oblivion. Loot scaling in Skyrim is very annoying, though. But in the end, the difference between the two is that Skyrim can become really good if you install a descaling mod like Requiem or Unleashed, whereas with Oblivion, you're still faced with awful world design, etc.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

This will be my final argument (probably).


Level scaling isn't that bad in fact it can be seen as a good thing. When enemies level with you that means that you will always be provided with somewhat of a challenge, now sure you don't encounter the situations where you have to level up more and the come back, but depending on your perspective level scaling works just as well in certain ways.

No, it can't, because level scaling isn't restricted only to enemies in Skyrim, it affects almost everything, sapping the fun from finding new enemies and gear, hell, even unique weapons have their stats scaled to your level, how fucking stupid is that. I found the legendary chillrend, but I was level 5 so it's about as good as a steel sword, Woow!. Granted, Oblivion's scaling is miles worse, but the scaling in Skyrim is still bad. What is the point of improving your character when everything in the world will always be neither too hard nor too easy? Look at Fallout: New Vegas, the game had little level scaling in the core experience, yet there was always lots of challenge to be had, because the encounters weren't shit, to me it's just good game design vs bad, level scaling is a lazy crutch imo, to compensate for shitty world design and poor balance. It cheapens the experience of almost everything, from finding gear to each dungeon crawl, it's a crappy feature, and it's clear by examples from better games that it isn't required to have challenging content throughout.

The lack of freedom isn't that much of an argument, because if anything they give you more freedom. By removing the restrictions for guilds they give more freedom to do what ever you want, if you want to join every guild, do it, if you don't, don't.

The lack of freedom in regards to guilds isn't much of an argument because nobody made it, you hold your strawman, bub. By removing any restrictions to guilds they make guilds feel worthless, and progressing is the real issue, if you can become leader of a guild without actually having the skills associated with it then there's a big problem. It makes the game and it's world seem stupid,it's clear that it's made for fuckwits who want immediate gratification, like Fallout's Power Armor, minigun and Deathclaw in the first few minutes, it's boring, nothing feels like an accomplishment in Skyrim.

As far as kill able npcs go, well not everyone goes on murder sprees. Even then there is a reason they did it. If a character is traveling and they get killed by a bandit on the way there then that means that the quest involved would be inaccessible to the player for unfair reasons.

Yeah, well, some do, durrr, and the game has a dark brotherhood guild, durr, so it's doing exactly what I said, limiting you to a cookie cutter bandit fighting hero. What a shit argument, and yes, that is lack of freedom, and again, painting a strawman with your "killing spree" argument. I gave two valid reasons for needing/wanting to kill NPCs that weren't mindless killing sprees, but here's more:
1.The NPC is of an opposing faction, for example, if you're a stormcloak you can't kill imperial generals in the camps that Ulfric himself tells you to raid, and vice versa, they are simply immortal. 2.Annoying as fuck asshole NPCs that a jarl of a hold should be able to get away with killing, Olfrid Battle Born for example. 3.How about: THE FUCKING THIEVES GUILD, or Maven Black Briar. completely evil scumbags that are destroying Riften and fucking over people's lives, who even joins the shitty thieves guild after the first playthrough? Yes, such freedom, an entire guild of evil bad guys that are immortal because reasons. 4.You actually join the shitty thieves guild or the dark Brotherhood, you steal something or kill someone, get hostiles in the area, can't dispatch them in order to get away clean because immortal, that is shit. 5.Playing as a vampire, or werewolf, etc, etc, do you see how many character options are limited by that shitty system?
Nope, your second argument doesn't work either, because followers in the game can only be killed by the player, they are otherwise essential until you specifically strike them. The essential status isn't to protect NPCs from bandits(as the follower style essential status could easily do that), it's to treat the player like a drooling retard.(Maybe they know their audience better than I do.)
Finally, Fallout: New Vegas was a huge Bethesda style game that had no essential NPCs, and it was fucking great, and I never had any of the problems you mentioned happen. Guess bethesda are just incompetent shits with even more incompetent players, can't give them any freedom, they might hurt themselves!

As far as leveling, there were certain skills that came across as pointless to have, and thus by having the skills you have in the newer elder scrolls games it is easier to see how you want to level up your character, because the skills are divided up into three sections, warrior, stealth, and mage.

Don't really know what that means, the skills were always divided like that....

I stand by that a lot of people here have exaggerated and pointless complaints, you need not look further than this thread to see that, but if those things/your points bother(s) you that much, fine I don't care.

Looking at this thread, I see the complete opposite, a lot of Codexers think the game is al'right with mods, I gave it a 6/10, it's been referred to as a fun derp time waster. These seem like mostly reasonable people who don't really care as much as you do, also have better arguments to back up what they say and don't blindly defend every shit feature of the game or completely write it off.
I mean, what's more reasonable than finding flaws, modding them out, and then enjoying the game? I imagine you play on Xbox so modding the game is out of the question.
I am curious though, if none of those things that you've argued for matter at all and are pointless complains, what does matter? For an RPG of course, not an FPS hiking sim, what does matter that Skyrim does right?

 

[typical user]

I guess we must be playing different games, because by the end of the game, I find it easier to fight enemies at a higher level while still being provided with a challenge. If you level up your skills in combat it helps. I also didn't find playing as a mage that hard.

I don't find it hard but boring. Take in example Fallout. On first level you fight rats, primitives and giant ants. Mid-game you fight bandits with automatic weapons, large band of geckos and molerats. By the end you are facing against giant lizards, people in powered suits wielding advanced energy weapons or mutants that can wield miniguns with one hand and are almost immune to damage. In Skyrim you meet draugr/falmer/bandits/dwemer/dragons with more fancy names. If I were fighting dogs, bears and bandits on levels 1-25, then 25-50 draugr, automatons, falmer and 50-81 daedra, dragons, vampires, werewolfs then I wouldn't complain but this level-scaling is such a lazy job in this game that I am complaining right now. It is common in all Bethesda games, play for first hour to know how 100th hour will look like. I just want opponents that do mean business by just looking at them and with new interesting abilities or combat styles. In Dark Souls if you aproach Black Knight then he will one-shoot you, in Skyrim you can just kite harder opponents or stun-lock them with shield-bashing.

You mentioned that you like games with challenge and thinking, perhaps you would enjoy more puzzle based games, or games that are heavily philosophical or scientific.

Or maybe games that don't handhold me and put solution in front of my face and offer childish story with poorly designed characters? But yes I do enjoy strategy games or any game which punishes button mashing or brute-forcing.

If you don't mind, could we please end this conversation? It is going nowhere.

Why? You entered discussion and now you are trying to back off because your arguments are subjective and I don't agree with them? That's what discussion is about, we share opinions on the subject.

 

[xkilljoy98]

I don't find it hard but boring. Take in example Fallout. On first level you fight rats, primitives and giant ants. Mid-game you fight bandits with automatic weapons, large band of geckos and molerats. By the end you are facing against giant lizards, people in powered suits wielding advanced energy weapons or mutants that can wield miniguns with one hand and are almost immune to damage. In Skyrim you meet draugr/falmer/bandits/dwemer/dragons with more fancy names. If I were fighting dogs, bears and bandits on levels 1-25, then 25-50 draugr, automatons, falmer and 50-81 daedra, dragons, vampires, werewolfs then I wouldn't complain but this level-scaling is such a lazy job in this game that I am complaining right now. It is common in all Bethesda games, play for first hour to now how 100th hour will look like. I just want opponents that do mean business by just looking at them and with new interesting abilities or combat styles. In Dark Souls if you aproach Black Knight then he will one-shoot you, in Skyrim you can just kite harder opponents or stun-lock them with shield-bashing.



Or maybe games that don't handhold me and put solution in front of my face and offer childish story with poorly designed characters? But yes I do enjoy strategy games or any game which punishes button mashing or brute-forcing.



Why? You entered discussion and now you are trying to back off because your arguments are subjective and I don't agree with them? That's what discussion is about, we share opinions on the subject.

So you don't like that you continue to fight certain enemies in later levels that still provide a challenge?


Well no that's not what I was implying, because there is a certain point where I realize an argument is going on for to long and it is pointless to continue.


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[typical user]

I don't find it hard but boring. Take in example Fallout. On first level you fight rats, primitives and giant ants. Mid-game you fight bandits with automatic weapons, large band of geckos and molerats. By the end you are facing against giant lizards, people in powered suits wielding advanced energy weapons or mutants that can wield miniguns with one hand and are almost immune to damage. In Skyrim you meet draugr/falmer/bandits/dwemer/dragons with more fancy names. If I were fighting dogs, bears and bandits on levels 1-25, then 25-50 draugr, automatons, falmer and 50-81 daedra, dragons, vampires, werewolfs then I wouldn't complain but this level-scaling is such a lazy job in this game that I am complaining right now. It is common in all Bethesda games, play for first hour to now how 100th hour will look like. I just want opponents that do mean business by just looking at them and with new interesting abilities or combat styles. In Dark Souls if you aproach Black Knight then he will one-shoot you, in Skyrim you can just kite harder opponents or stun-lock them with shield-bashing.



Or maybe games that don't handhold me and put solution in front of my face and offer childish story with poorly designed characters? But yes I do enjoy strategy games or any game which punishes button mashing or brute-forcing.



Why? You entered discussion and now you are trying to back off because your arguments are subjective and I don't agree with them? That's what discussion is about, we share opinions on the subject.

So you don't like that you continue to fight certain enemies in later levels that still provide a challenge?


Well no that's not what I was implying, because there is a certain point where I realize an argument is going on for to long and it is pointless to continue.


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If they look and behave same? No, I feel cheated. I leveled up my character to face opponent that can withstand even more absurd amount of blows to his head. Where is progression in that? How can I feel as legendary Dragonborn if a typical bandit doesn't care if I wield demonic weapon? Not to mention you can exploit AI in Skyrim in many ways that only draugr archers pose real challenge.

 

[xkilljoy98]

No, it can't, because level scaling isn't restricted only to enemies in Skyrim, it affects almost everything, sapping the fun from finding new enemies and gear, hell, even unique weapons have their stats scaled to your level, how fucking stupid is that. I found the legendary chillrend, but I was level 5 so it's about as good as a steel sword, Woow!. Granted, Oblivion's scaling is miles worse, but the scaling in Skyrim is still bad. What is the point of improving your character when everything in the world will always be neither too hard nor too easy? Look at Fallout: New Vegas, the game had little level scaling in the core experience, yet there was always lots of challenge to be had, because the encounters weren't shit, to me it's just good game design vs bad, level scaling is a lazy crutch imo, to compensate for shitty world design and poor balance. It cheapens the experience of almost everything, from finding gear to each dungeon crawl, it's a crappy feature, and it's clear by examples from better games that it isn't required to have challenging content throughout.



The lack of freedom in regards to guilds isn't much of an argument because nobody made it, you hold your strawman, bub. By removing any restrictions to guilds they make guilds feel worthless, and progressing is the real issue, if you can become leader of a guild without actually having the skills associated with it then there's a big problem. It makes the game and it's world seem stupid,it's clear that it's made for fuckwits who want immediate gratification, like Fallout's Power Armor, minigun and Deathclaw in the first few minutes, it's boring, nothing feels like an accomplishment in Skyrim.

Yeah, well, some do, durrr, and the game has a dark brotherhood guild, durr, so it's doing exactly what I said, limiting you to a cookie cutter bandit fighting hero. What a shit argument, and yes, that is lack of freedom, and again, painting a strawman with your "killing spree" argument. I gave two valid reasons for needing/wanting to kill NPCs that weren't mindless killing sprees, but here's more:
1.The NPC is of an opposing faction, for example, if you're a stormcloak you can't kill imperial generals in the camps that Ulfric himself tells you to raid, and vice versa, they are simply immortal. 2.Annoying as fuck asshole NPCs that a jarl of a hold should be able to get away with killing, Olfrid Battle Born for example. 3.How about: THE FUCKING THIEVES GUILD, or Maven Black Briar. completely evil scumbags that are destroying Riften and fucking over people's lives, who even joins the shitty thieves guild after the first playthrough? Yes, such freedom, an entire guild of evil bad guys that are immortal because reasons. 4.You actually join the shitty thieves guild or the dark Brotherhood, you steal something or kill someone, get hostiles in the area, can't dispatch them in order to get away clean because immortal, that is shit. 5.Playing as a vampire, or werewolf, etc, etc, do you see how many character options are limited by that shitty system?
Nope, your second argument doesn't work either, because followers in the game can only be killed by the player, they are otherwise essential until you specifically strike them. The essential status isn't to protect NPCs from bandits(as the follower style essential status could easily do that), it's to treat the player like a drooling retard.(Maybe they know their audience better than I do.)
Finally, Fallout: New Vegas was a huge Bethesda style game that had no essential NPCs, and it was fucking great, and I never had any of the problems you mentioned happen. Guess bethesda are just incompetent shits with even more incompetent players, can't give them any freedom, they might hurt themselves!


Don't really know what that means, the skills were always divided like that....


Looking at this thread, I see the complete opposite, a lot of Codexers think the game is al'right with mods, I gave it a 6/10, it's been referred to as a fun derp time waster. These seem like mostly reasonable people who don't really care as much as you do, also have better arguments to back up what they say and don't blindly defend every shit feature of the game or completely write it off.
I mean, what's more reasonable than finding flaws, modding them out, and then enjoying the game? I imagine you play on Xbox so modding the game is out of the question.
I am curious though, if none of those things that you've argued for matter at all and are pointless complains, what does matter? For an RPG of course, not an FPS hiking sim, what does matter that Skyrim does right?

Well I suppose it still feels like an accomplishment to some. Personally I wasn't bother by any of that, and the guilds didn't feel worthless. I don't feel like it's fair to restrict the player from completing the questline until they level up skills in a certain area, although it's an interesting idea.

Well I suppose "pointless" complaints depends on if you are bothered by them or not.

Well options are limited by the vamp and were systems because of balancing reasons.

I'm also not blindly defending it, a lot of the complaints listed here honestly don't bother me so to me they come across as pointless.

Yes I play on console and my pc (laptop) probably couldn't run it.




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[xkilljoy98]

If they look and behave same? No, I feel cheated. I leveled up my character to face opponent that can withstand even more absurd amount of blows to his head. Where is progression in that? How can I feel as legendary Dragonborn if a typical bandit doesn't care if I wield demonic weapon? Not to mention you can exploit AI in Skyrim in many ways that only draugr archers pose real challenge.

Well the enemy AI is programmed to attack the player on sight.


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[SquidLord]

People seem to think of freedom now like they think of equality.

Freedom is having the option to choose to do everything just because you are free to do what you want doesn't mean there will be no consequences prerequisites or that everything will be a perfect challenge.

Guilds should have skill restrictions and if they do it in no way impacts player freedom because you can level any skill you want. You want to join the Mage guild just level magic. Don't like magic or don't want to do it? Thats your freedom also it's called a choice and it has a consequence.

 

[xkilljoy98]

No, it can't, because level scaling isn't restricted only to enemies in Skyrim, it affects almost everything, sapping the fun from finding new enemies and gear, hell, even unique weapons have their stats scaled to your level, how fucking stupid is that. I found the legendary chillrend, but I was level 5 so it's about as good as a steel sword, Woow!. Granted, Oblivion's scaling is miles worse, but the scaling in Skyrim is still bad. What is the point of improving your character when everything in the world will always be neither too hard nor too easy? Look at Fallout: New Vegas, the game had little level scaling in the core experience, yet there was always lots of challenge to be had, because the encounters weren't shit, to me it's just good game design vs bad, level scaling is a lazy crutch imo, to compensate for shitty world design and poor balance. It cheapens the experience of almost everything, from finding gear to each dungeon crawl, it's a crappy feature, and it's clear by examples from better games that it isn't required to have challenging content throughout.



The lack of freedom in regards to guilds isn't much of an argument because nobody made it, you hold your strawman, bub. By removing any restrictions to guilds they make guilds feel worthless, and progressing is the real issue, if you can become leader of a guild without actually having the skills associated with it then there's a big problem. It makes the game and it's world seem stupid,it's clear that it's made for fuckwits who want immediate gratification, like Fallout's Power Armor, minigun and Deathclaw in the first few minutes, it's boring, nothing feels like an accomplishment in Skyrim.

Yeah, well, some do, durrr, and the game has a dark brotherhood guild, durr, so it's doing exactly what I said, limiting you to a cookie cutter bandit fighting hero. What a shit argument, and yes, that is lack of freedom, and again, painting a strawman with your "killing spree" argument. I gave two valid reasons for needing/wanting to kill NPCs that weren't mindless killing sprees, but here's more:
1.The NPC is of an opposing faction, for example, if you're a stormcloak you can't kill imperial generals in the camps that Ulfric himself tells you to raid, and vice versa, they are simply immortal. 2.Annoying as fuck asshole NPCs that a jarl of a hold should be able to get away with killing, Olfrid Battle Born for example. 3.How about: THE FUCKING THIEVES GUILD, or Maven Black Briar. completely evil scumbags that are destroying Riften and fucking over people's lives, who even joins the shitty thieves guild after the first playthrough? Yes, such freedom, an entire guild of evil bad guys that are immortal because reasons. 4.You actually join the shitty thieves guild or the dark Brotherhood, you steal something or kill someone, get hostiles in the area, can't dispatch them in order to get away clean because immortal, that is shit. 5.Playing as a vampire, or werewolf, etc, etc, do you see how many character options are limited by that shitty system?
Nope, your second argument doesn't work either, because followers in the game can only be killed by the player, they are otherwise essential until you specifically strike them. The essential status isn't to protect NPCs from bandits(as the follower style essential status could easily do that), it's to treat the player like a drooling retard.(Maybe they know their audience better than I do.)
Finally, Fallout: New Vegas was a huge Bethesda style game that had no essential NPCs, and it was fucking great, and I never had any of the problems you mentioned happen. Guess bethesda are just incompetent shits with even more incompetent players, can't give them any freedom, they might hurt themselves!


Don't really know what that means, the skills were always divided like that....


Looking at this thread, I see the complete opposite, a lot of Codexers think the game is al'right with mods, I gave it a 6/10, it's been referred to as a fun derp time waster. These seem like mostly reasonable people who don't really care as much as you do, also have better arguments to back up what they say and don't blindly defend every shit feature of the game or completely write it off.
I mean, what's more reasonable than finding flaws, modding them out, and then enjoying the game? I imagine you play on Xbox so modding the game is out of the question.
I am curious though, if none of those things that you've argued for matter at all and are pointless complains, what does matter? For an RPG of course, not an FPS hiking sim, what does matter that Skyrim does right?

I don't care about the game as a whole as much as you think (though obviously I have a sort of connection to/interest in the game), a lot of these arguments often result from this:


Look almost everyone has some sort of art form that they connect with, and sometimes it is easy to forget where it begins and where it ends. Thus insults towards that form/piece of art can sometimes feel more like insults towards the person, due to that personal connection. The deeper the connecting the greater chance that person will feel insulted, it varies from person to person. I wouldn't necessarily say that's why we are having this conversation but, I have noticed that similar arguments are sometimes caused by this.



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[xkilljoy98]

People seem to think of freedom now like they think of equality.

Freedom is having the option to choose to do everything just because you are free to do what you want doesn't mean there will be no consequences prerequisites or that everything will be a perfect challenge.

Guilds should have skill restrictions and if they do it in no way impacts player freedom because you can level any skill you want. You want to join the Mage guild just level magic. Don't like magic or don't want to do it? Thats your freedom also it's called a choice and it has a consequence.

When you compare newer games to older games, it seems over the years that freedom has been given a slightly different meaning (at least in games).


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[SquidLord]

People seem to think of freedom now like they think of equality.

Freedom is having the option to choose to do everything just because you are free to do what you want doesn't mean there will be no consequences prerequisites or that everything will be a perfect challenge.

Guilds should have skill restrictions and if they do it in no way impacts player freedom because you can level any skill you want. You want to join the Mage guild just level magic. Don't like magic or don't want to do it? Thats your freedom also it's called a choice and it has a consequence.

When you compare newer games to older games, it seems over the years that freedom has been given a slightly different meaning (at least in games).


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I would argue in the world at large but that is a topic somewhat out of this scope.

The redefinition fails because you aren't free if nothing you do matters it becomes a false choice. I'd argue that freedom only exists if there is some choice, oh shit I just went circular didn't I?

 

[xkilljoy98]

I would argue in the world at large but that is a topic somewhat out of this scope.

The redefinition fails because you aren't free if nothing you do matters it becomes a false choice. I'd argue that freedom only exists if there is some choice, oh shit I just went circular didn't I?

It seems as if there are various different types of freedom in games:

1. Do whatever and go wherever you want.

2. Make any choice you want.

3. Build up your character however you want.

Etc.


There are probably more, but those are the most common.


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[Cadmus]

huh guys, killjoy is trying so hard

I don't feel like it's fair to restrict the player from completing the questline until they level up skills in a certain area, although it's an interesting idea.

The lack of freedom isn't that much of an argument, because if anything they give you more freedom

art form

I play on console and my pc (laptop) probably couldn't run it.

and if you're still not convinced:

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let me also join this debate by way of presenting similar arguments

- Skyrim is great because I get immersed.
- It's got the best graphics right now.
- It's basically like Morrowind but with better a combat system.

If you disagree pls write argument I don't have time now. It's subjective because it's art.

 

[MWaser]

It's racist to judge people based on iPod usage

At least you didn't mention the "98" at the end of his nickname
So I could still do it

 

[xkilljoy98]

huh guys, killjoy is trying so hard






and if you're still not convinced:


let me also join this debate by way of presenting similar arguments

- Skyrim is great because I get immersed.
- It's got the best graphics right now.
- It's basically like Morrowind but with better a combat system.

If you disagree pls write argument I don't have time now. It's subjective because it's art.

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[xkilljoy98]

It's racist to judge people based on iPod usage

At least you didn't mention the "98" at the end of his nickname
So I could still do it

*Her


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