Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[DraQ]

The game already has another tag, existing and used in gameplay - not just some theoretical "could've-should've" - that works just as essential tag in terms of protecting NPCs from random deaths, but not from player's agency.
The fact they used the actual essential tag instead indicates that they first and foremost wanted to protect players from themselves.

I thought the Protected Tag didn't work as intended. When is it used in gameplay?

Followers?

But you can't kill your followers for as long as they follow you, you have to make them leave your service first (which they'll do if you hit them in the face a few times). And then anything can kill them (providing they're not essential to begin with).

I certainly had followers dying on me due to insufficiently careful use of AoE attacks so no.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The game already has another tag, existing and used in gameplay - not just some theoretical "could've-should've" - that works just as essential tag in terms of protecting NPCs from random deaths, but not from player's agency.
The fact they used the actual essential tag instead indicates that they first and foremost wanted to protect players from themselves.

I thought the Protected Tag didn't work as intended. When is it used in gameplay?

Whenever you see a NPC kneeling when his health gets to a critical state.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Protected_NPCs

Several NPCs in Skyrim are protected at some point during gameplay. This means, that, when their health depletes (usually down to 10% of its maximum, but this will occur even if the NPC's health would have been reduced to zero), they enter a state called "bleedout", where they fall to their knees and are ignored by all hostile entities until their health regenerates. Unlike the similar essential status, they can still be killed if they are attacked by the player, where they will die as easily as non-protected NPCs.

A permanent follower accompanying the player is set as protected, regardless of whether or not they are normally. This also applies to the player's spouse and anyone recruited into the Blades.

For a list of protected NPCs see Category:Skyrim-Protected NPCs and for a list of protected creatures see Category:Skyrim-Protected Creatures.

Bugs

• A protected NPC may still be killed by other NPCs if they are attacked during bleedout, commonly by area of effect magic, poison or delayed power attacks.
  • This bug is fixed by version Beta 1.9.26.0.8 of the Official Skyrim Patch.

Also, the fact that dragon attacks, vampire raids and whatnot actually kill people is not a fucking flaw. Lack of named NPC generator can be seen as flaw, but not people dying to stuff that is actually supposed to kill them.

It makes sense, but it is still massively annoying to have settlements turned into ghost towns.

 

[AW8]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Protected_NPCs

All right, I was just gonna link to that page and crawl in the dirt before Allmighty DraQ, seeking forgiveness.

I also started up Skyrim, recruited a follower and hacked him to death without him ever leaving my service (I checked with "show playerfollowercount" between swings all the way until the moment of death). Which was weird, as he never even entered the bleedout state. Gonna experiment more by having him fight giants to see if he's got even an ounce of invincibilty in him.

EDIT:
Yup, the giants spent 5 minutes lowering Golldir's health bar until he entered bleedout and they left him alone, unable to kill him. I however could deliver a killing stroke when he was in the bleedout state.

Also, the fact that dragon attacks, vampire raids and whatnot actually kill people is not a fucking flaw. Lack of named NPC generator can be seen as flaw, but not people dying to stuff that is actually supposed to kill them.

It makes sense, but it is still massively annoying to have settlements turned into ghost towns.

The most challenging aspect of Skyrim is to keep named NPC's alive with all the dragon/vampire attacks in the cities. On one hand the idea isn't that dumb since it makes the threat seem more threatening and dangerous, on the other hand it's fucking annoying and bad design to kill off the local shopkeeper and beggar in a random vampire attack.

 

[DraQ]

Also, the fact that dragon attacks, vampire raids and whatnot actually kill people is not a fucking flaw. Lack of named NPC generator can be seen as flaw, but not people dying to stuff that is actually supposed to kill them.

It makes sense, but it is still massively annoying to have settlements turned into ghost towns.

True, that's why the game could benefit from NPC generator, it's just it might be difficult to implement with all the hidden factions, like families, daily routines and so on.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Even back in Morrowind there were mods that put unnamed, "atmosphere" NPCs into towns, who aren't related to any person or quest. Problem is, you don't really notice (or care) when Peasant #125 is killed in a dragon attack. They're mostly useful for making settlements seem more active and being targets for thief PCs.

So yeah, there's not much to do here. Either you have events kill important NPCs whose presence you'd miss (which is interesting in paper, but annoying in practice) or you kill unimportant NPCs you don't care about (which is interesting in paper, but irrelevant in practice)

 

[DraQ]

Even back in Morrowind there were mods that put unnamed, "atmosphere" NPCs into towns, who aren't related to any person or quest.

They were shit though, and those NPCs didn't really have their place in the gameworld anyway.

So yeah, there's not much to do here. Either you have events kill important NPCs whose presence you'd miss (which is interesting in paper, but annoying in practice) or you kill unimportant NPCs you don't care about (which is interesting in paper, but irrelevant in practice)

Actually I still consider it more cool than annoying that a character I helped can get stabbed in the face while jumping to my defense, nommed by a dragon or whatever.

Anyway, I don't really think of it as a dichotomy. For example you could have dynamically generated NPC families and groups settling into vacant property. Depending on disposition system it could still make the loss meaningful and it might still change the distribution of services.

The problem with ghost-towns isn't that NPCs are killed which is annoying, but lack of impact of that deaths.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Bugs

• A protected NPC may still be killed by other NPCs if they are attacked during bleedout, commonly by area of effect magic, poison or delayed power attacks.
  • This bug is fixed by version Beta 1.9.26.0.8 of the Official Skyrim Patch.

[/quote]

1.9.26.0.8 of the Official Skyrim Patch

 

[DraQ]

1.9.26.0.8 of the Official Skyrim Patch

As long as they aren't making aircraft...

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

So yeah, there's not much to do here. Either you have events kill important NPCs whose presence you'd miss (which is interesting in paper, but annoying in practice) or you kill unimportant NPCs you don't care about (which is interesting in paper, but irrelevant in practice)

Actually I still consider it more cool than annoying that a character I helped can get stabbed in the face while jumping to my defense, nommed by a dragon or whatever.

Except there is nothing resembling such roleplaying in fundamental mechanics, and instead the vanilla of this game is rather perceived as: one OP bugged NPC kills 5 npcs, which is easily half of the town's population, while everyone else doesn't care the slightest, and instead makes jokes about sweetrolls and Cloud District, and finally gets stupidly killed while game's physics catapult him when getting glitched in the nearby building or whatever.

The main problem with such idea of "city/NPC attack" is in the city/community aspect of a given province represented in-game itself. Skyrim is an improvement over Oblivion in a lot of ways, but not cities.

To sum up:

1) Morrowind(Daggerfall's philosophy doesn't count; haven't played Arena) had Vivec City (the *capital*), three *cities* like Sadrith Mora, a few *towns* like Suran, and finally small *villages* like Hla Oad.

2) Oblivion had Imperial City (the *capital*), which consisted of ~9 districts like Vivec City, it didn't really have any *towns* and was more defragmentated, but recompensated it with nine bigger *cities* like Skingrad, and had *villages* like Hackdirt.

3) In the meanwhile Skyrim has no *capital*; but still has 9 *cities* to make up for it - not a huge loss, isn't it? Except it is, because only 5 are *cities*, and the remaining ones aren't even *towns*; Winterhold is easily a *village* format, so it's a double cheat compared to Oblivion. Let alone Morrowind. (Let alone Daggerfall)

Mods fixed a lot of things, but expanding shitty towns/communities isn't one of them, and you can't just enlarge that, not with this engine. When I did this for New Vegas, half of the Nexus told me I broke their savegames.

But even if it had Morrowind-sized the total of cities, the design philosophy doesn't support such "city attack" mechanics. Because it would have to revert back to Daggerfall format of the worldspace to make such NPC attacks plausible on this scale.

 

[RK47]

On the return trip from Eldergleam - I ran across 2 black robed dudes firebolting a random deer.
Probably just mages, let's snipe these fuckers.
Nope. They were vampires.
When they got close enough to be identified, I started running away, popping heal and stamina pot - leaving my companion behind as a decoy.

Once I followed the river towards Windhelm, I felt confident enough that I was safe and stopped sprinting.
Seeing an empty cabin up ahead, I decided to take a look for any loose treasures to offset the lost companion - she was carrying most of the loot too.
Only to run into Mr. Bear.
Hell, at least it's not a vampire-bear. I ran up a cliff, fired a few arrows and jumped off when he got close. Got in a few swipes, but at least I didn't get any disease.
Bear's dead, I walk into the abandoned cabin, locked chest. Meh. I turned around and jumped when I noticed a person right behind me!

Turns out it's my companion who somehow survived two vampires.
She kindly picked the lock for me and we walked back to Windhelm after hot sex in the cabin.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

"Oh god, being left behind to die makes me sooooo hot, ungf"

 

[RK47]

Celebratory sex, man.
And since I was in sneak mode, she never made a noise when she entered the cabin. That freaked me out.

 

[Dreaad]

Sounds like the sims with combat.

 

[RK47]

I really want to own a house, but the price is too high. So I just live at Ysolda's house anyway, since I charmed her enough to travel with me. She didn't mind using her place as the stolen loot storage place. We hardly moved from Whiterun until we have topped our loot weight cap. I recall the early days of running around Whiterun clad in stolen fine clothes, charming the shopkeepers with blowjobs so we could pick some cheap 'sample' products from their counters.

 

[Surf Solar]

Emergent gaming at its finest.

 

[RK47]

Yes, I'm inspired by Felicia Day getting free dessert in her local diner.

 

[DalekFlay]

I think the core point on the essential mod thing is if you want every NPC to be killable you have to design the game for that from the ground up, like New Vegas did. Skyrim didn't do that.

 

[RK47]

I think the core point is if you want every NPC to be killable you have to design the game for that from the ground up, like New Vegas did. Skyrim didn't do that.

Too many random encounters. I don't own Dawnguard, but seeing that Frost Atronach wiping out a whole bandit fort and Riften gate - only to be stopped by a lone horsecart is pretty much what convinced me you just gotta turn a blind eye on this.

Though stopping the war by killing Jarl Ulfric / General Tulius should've been possible. Just give Ulfric dragonshout and good high level (30?) + elite guards around him. I find it ridiculous a lone adventurer can even get an audience with Ulfric / Tulius less than a day after Helgen. Baby steps, I guess.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

The guys who follow you during the tutorial are personal assistants of their respective bosses, so I guess they vouch for you. Yes, it's a contrived explanation, but meh. It's not like the plot is complex to begin with. You just woke up, not knowing where you are or what's your name. Your only possesion is a note that says: "Kill Strelok Alduin".

Just remembered that when your follower asks you what's your plan, at the gates of Helgen, one of the options is "I have a score to settle with that dragon". What the fuck? He saved your life, retard

I think the core point on the essential mod thing is if you want every NPC to be killable you have to design the game for that from the ground up, like New Vegas did. Skyrim didn't do that.

Why? Killing an NPC will just prevent you from completing quests where he's needed, and since the game is completely open world it should flow just fine with every NPC being Protected instead of Essential. If you kill an important Thieves Guild member, that faction is lost to you since you won't be able to finish their questlines, but you have others to choose from.

While the Essential tag was somewhat useful in Oblivion (protecting wandering NPCs from being mauled by mountain lions), the new Protected tag renders it obsolete. It's now really just a crutch to pretect dumbass players from killing someone to loot their hat and then complaining they can't do a quest that requires that person to be alive.

 

[DalekFlay]

Why? Killing an NPC will just prevent you from completing quests where he's needed, and since the game is completely open world it should flow just fine with every NPC being Protected instead of Essential. If you kill an important Thieves Guild member, that faction is lost to you since you won't be able to finish their questlines, but you have others to choose from.

Argument aside about whether the protected tag works or not, the fundamental design difference is pretty obvious. For example in New Vegas Yes Man is the backup for players who are kill-happy to finish the game anyway. Skyrim has no such backup for any questline, nor does it have the UI warning that Morrowind had. So you could be randomly thieving around town, get caught by a seemingly pointless homeowner, kill them, then find out 40 game hours later that homeowner was essential to completing one of the core questlines.

You (and perhaps even I) might be fine with that, shrug it off and say "I'll do that guild or main quest next game," but I don't think that mindset applies to everyone, not at all. And from what Josh Sawyer has said, Yes Man ended up being the most popular way to finish New Vegas by a large margin, due to this exact issue.

 

[RK47]

Going on killing spree on Riverwood would fuck up the main quest as well. Despite how insignificant the village seems - you'd think it's just a tutorial zone - but nope, not really.

 

[abnaxus]

I find it ridiculous a lone adventurer can even get an audience with Ulfric / Tulius less than a day after Helgen. Baby steps, I guess.

Or the reverse, if you wait to meet Ulfric until you finished main quest and are level 50+ you are still treated like a random nobody who needs to go on some shitty errand to prove you're worthy.

Same problem with Thieves guild and Dark brotherhood. Logically speaking you shouldn't even be able to join them once your character is a celebrity.

 

[RK47]

Ran around picking herbs around Whiterun, trying out alchemical solutions for cash and training.
Using speechcraft to get better prices perks plus amulet of haggling another +15%. Slowly getting up to 5k and blow all of it in Archery training.
Decided I need more money, goes on a thieving spree - the Jarl's palace, any home, shops. I walk in and grab what I could and stuff it into a barrel behind the market.

Whenever I do this, the citizens of Whiterun would say 'What a poor girl, sifting through trash...'

Haha, if only they knew what's inside. Around twenty silver jugs worth 50 coins each. Over a 50 stones-heavy herbs ready for mixture, some pieces of jewelry worth more than 1000 gold altogether, pouch full of gems, and a few dozens of fine clothings,shoes and hats looted from the nobles' wardrobes fetching between 40-60 gold pieces in the retail market. I probably need an assistant, carrying the gold coins alone would weight me down. Ysolda was willing to join in after I handed her a Mammoth Tusk. She wanted to be a merchant, this is the perfect opportunity to learn from practice.

As the goods dried up from the citizens of Whiterun, I decided to embark on a trip to Riften to sell off the goods. It was a quirky sight, two women hover around a barrel, deciding which junk to throw into their sack of loot before boarding a carriage to Riften.

Laughing with glee as I disembark from the cart, my laughter was cut short by the sight of three burly men wielding giant warhammers.

"Can we help you gentlemen?" I gave them my most polite smile.
"We're about to teach you a lesson for stealing things." the grumpy one muttered before the three hammers were swung.

Dodged it, barely. Damn, to lose all this shit, when it was so close. I started walking backwards - thinking on what to do. Lose, and I get raped, enslaved - and they probably will take everything. Can't risk pulling out the bow as well. As I continued the dance downhill - suddenly one of the thugs dropped. And another, leaving the last dude alone, crying for mercy.

Conjured a sword and cut the lone prick down. Only then I realized Ysolda had a bow by default. Damn city girl. We stripped the three asssholes, hauling their armors and enchanted warhammers towards the gate of Riften, their dicks blowing in the wind.

That was the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

 

[Codexlurker]

Ran around picking herbs around Whiterun, trying out alchemical solutions for cash and training.
Using speechcraft to get better prices perks plus amulet of haggling another +15%. Slowly getting up to 5k and blow all of it in Archery training.
Decided I need more money, goes on a thieving spree - the Jarl's palace, any home, shops. I walk in and grab what I could and stuff it into a barrel behind the market.

Whenever I do this, the citizens of Whiterun would say 'What a poor girl, sifting through trash...'

Haha, if only they knew what's inside. Around twenty silver jugs worth 50 coins each. Over a 50 stones-heavy herbs ready for mixture, some pieces of jewelry worth more than 1000 gold altogether, pouch full of gems, and a few dozens of fine clothings,shoes and hats looted from the nobles' wardrobes fetching between 40-60 gold pieces in the retail market. I probably need an assistant, carrying the gold coins alone would weight me down. Ysolda was willing to join in after I handed her a Mammoth Tusk. She wanted to be a merchant, this is the perfect opportunity to learn from practice.

As the goods dried up from the citizens of Whiterun, I decided to embark on a trip to Riften to sell off the goods. It was a quirky sight, two women hover around a barrel, deciding which junk to throw into their sack of loot before boarding a carriage to Riften.

Laughing with glee as I disembark from the cart, my laughter was cut short by the sight of three burly men wielding giant warhammers.

"Can we help you gentlemen?" I gave them my most polite smile.
"We're about to teach you a lesson for stealing things." the grumpy one muttered before the three hammers were swung.

Dodged it, barely. Damn, to lose all this shit, when it was so close. I started walking backwards - thinking on what to do. Lose, and I get raped, enslaved - and they probably will take everything. Can't risk pulling out the bow as well. As I continued the dance downhill - suddenly one of the thugs dropped. And another, leaving the last dude alone, crying for mercy.

Conjured a sword and cut the lone prick down. Only then I realized Ysolda had a bow by default. Damn city girl. We stripped the three asssholes, hauling their armors and enchanted warhammers towards the gate of Riften, their dicks blowing in the wind.

That was the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

And the tellings of a most epic cockblock. Any chances of Skyrim going on sale anytime soon?

 

[Carrion]

Why? Killing an NPC will just prevent you from completing quests where he's needed, and since the game is completely open world it should flow just fine with every NPC being Protected instead of Essential.

The thing is, the quest design is not exactly open world stuff. You usually have quite many hoops to jump through, many of them involving talking to seemingly unimportant NPCs with no way to go around it. In comparison Morrowind, Fallout or New Vegas, which allowed you to kill anyone (although in Morrowind you could also fuck your game up a bit too easily by killing a random person), usually had some sort of safeguards in place for those cases when a particular NPC was dead, such as giving the player an alternate way to get ahold of the same information, or just making it possible to skip entire stages of a quest. Sometimes the games might just acknowledge that you already killed some character and that therefore the quest is unsolvable or unnecessary. The games could also be finished with minimal amounts of NPC interaction, and the important plot-related characters were often protected in some way (in Morrowind it was the lame "Game is kind of over now" screen, but you could still finish the game in some other ways; in New Vegas it was Yes Man taking over another securitron after being killed, or Mr. House talking to you via a computer rather than face to face; in Fallout you, uh, had an immortal Overseer but no other essential characters you'd even have to speak to).

Skyrim has none if this, because it's designed with immortal NPCs in mind. You could mod everyone to be killable, but the game wouldn't recognize it or react to it in any way except killing certain quests or questlines permanently. The reason the game has unkillable NPCs is most likely partly because of wanting to protect dumb players, and partly because it saves the devs a ton of trouble when they don't have to come up with contingencies for those cases when the players don't want to play the game their way.