Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

[Deleted member 7219]

Game isn't doing too hot for HBS apparently, sales wise...

Added to the fact that it's a clear step backwards into biowarian story retardation and game design, when compared to Dragonfall...

Will we get any more shadowrun games or will the series go out with a whimper?

I don't know what your evidence is for this, but every single fucking gaming site out there except for Rock Paper Shotgun ignoring it probably didn't help.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's okay. Not as engaging as DF IMO, and very much more of the same, but it's fine. Still a bit buggy though, just won the first actually challenging fight I hit, and then couldn't exit the level because the lighting went all wonky -- sometimes I can't even see myself -- and the "Leave" hotspot won't accept clicks. Sure it'll be patched out soon enough...

 

[gestalt11]

Gotta agree that the new matrix is a load of fucking shit. I don't understand that mini game either. I just force my way through the door things and put up with the extra spawns that happen as a result.

Matrix was better in SRR and Dragonfall.

The mingame works like this. The simon says gives you more time on the next part with the matching. So you are supposed to balance out how much time you need with how much simon says. So hit start do two simon says real fast then hit next and you should get like 40 seconds, which for me is plenty of times to get the match game right. I can generally do even max difficulty with this approach. The last two simon says are a bit too long and since they are on a keypad that is not visually differentiated I find them more trouble than they are worth. I believe if you guess wrong on the match you can do another set of simon says to get more time and then do a rematch, but I generally don't bother with that.

The lack of turn based stuff is somewhat whacky, but at the same time you need to realize that turn based causes time to pass and non-turn based DOES NOT TAKE TIME. So during a run like the kidnap rooster mission (which has obligatory fight in the matrix) if you do only the fighting parts you take considerably less time in meatspace, probably half the turns. And on some things (like the whistleblower double cross) you can make special events happen in essentially no time if you are undetected.

There is a trick to doing things in non-turn based mode but once you get it down its not that hard, but it can take patience and time which I am sure will bug some people.

Further some areas have extremely low Trace (like 50 or 40) and you will basically summon many extra things to kill if you don't get through things in non-tuned based mode. Also keep in mind you can boost non-turn based movement speed.

The new matrix is VERY poorly exlained. As in not explained at all. However once you isolate out the actual behavior and consequences it does start to make some sense. I am sure it can be improved. And they could serious write a 5 page tutorial that would make things a lot more clear.

Its perfectly possible to play the current matrix like the old matrix. Just bust out the trace to max and you can just do the whole thing turn based and fight stuff just like old matrix. The new wrinkle of "Invisible Inc. style stealth" but in real time, is probably not going to be for everyeone. At the same time I don't think a lot of people are quite realizing that some key mechanics go along with doing things in a stealthy manner.

A poster here has already said they just run after detection. Well on some maps, since detection is 20 trace and you only get 50, you will definitely get to max trace. You will be running through multiple turn based encounter and will have to finish a fight probably near whatever hack packet you want and you won't be able to disconnect without a penalty. And doing things this way will take like 5 times the turns in meatspace.

You can brute force your way through an entire matrix if you want. All these people whining about it with hand wringing hyperbole are pretty silly. Just brute force it if its not your cup of tea. Get a really good combat decker and a good combat team to defend them and voila. If you want more finesse then be fast and clever and you barely need to fight and barely need to defend your decker in meatspace either. Go one way or the other. Or a bit of a mix if you want.

All this bitching about the new matrix seems pretty silly to me. Yeah its not as good as Invisible Inc. because that is entire fucking game made around it. The stealth play is fine its just not that hugely complex or robust. It works fine its penalties and interactions with brute force play are fine. You can still do the matrix like the brute force old style and at least this gives a spectrum of ways to play it out and that there are actual consequences to it. You don't like the stealthy setup? Then just brute force it and be a "get a bigger hammer" sort of person. The stealthy setup is fine. Could it be better and more intricate? Of course it could you could make an entire fucking separate game from it. But its doable, it has its challenges and doing things in a stealthy way has a clear benefit. And for the most part the interaction between stealth and brute force allows for a decent set of "gray area" play.

 

[Alfons]

Yeah, adding a TB toggle to the matrix would make things WAY better.

This should be improved in meatspace as well. There are some combat scenarios where you can't just attack while in other situations which are practically identical they don't allow you.

I don't remember a single fun hacking mini game in any game ever. Maybe Chaos Theory's was close to not being shit.

Bioshock 2 has the best hacking minigame. It's quick and it doesn't get in the way.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I don't know what your evidence is for this, but every single fucking gaming site out there except for Rock Paper Shotgun ignoring it probably didn't help.

Well, steam spy numbers, as subjective as they are, point to rather drastic diminishing returns for the franchise, from 800k plus to 400k to release number for SR Hong Kong of 60k.

That's not a good trend for any series, but then again it's KS backed, so as long as HBS keeps getting funded by crowd sourcing they could keep churning out games for years. But we will see little evolution to the gameplay due to smallish budgets and small sales numbers.

The engine for example needs massive upgrades if they intend to progress into more robust rpg systems.

 

[JarlFrank]

So, I guess I found the Codex reference. Some hivemind in the Matrix that mostly criticizes new software in BSS threads.

 

[Echo Mirage]

Do the runs you complete effect what items are unlocked to buy in Heoi? Or is it set to unlock items depending on the number of runs you complete?

 

[gestalt11]

This should be improved in meatspace as well. There are some combat scenarios where you can't just attack while in other situations which are practically identical they don't allow you.

Bioshock 2 has the best hacking minigame. It's quick and it doesn't get in the way.

They also need to explain and possible include a sight cone for initiated turn based stealth. The Whistleblower mission first map can be done completely stealthy via user iniated turned based mode (and is utterly impossible outside of turn based as stealth because your followers are completely un predicatable in how they will move.) I didn't even realize there was a yellow gun icon for undetected and I still don't quite know what kind of angle an actor has for seeing your guys. I mean I have an idea and I know its front facing.

So there are undocumented non obvious features and there is a lack of interface to show how things would work for that. Seems weird since they have the sight cone in matrix but NOT in meatspace. But they have a meatspace missions that needs it.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Do the runs you complete effect what items are unlocked to buy in Heoi? Or is it set to unlock items depending on the number of runs you complete?

It's based on the number of runs I think, haven't seen anything different being unlocked due to missions, except the laser sniper rifle and that's given to you after a mission.

 

[Alfons]

A poster here has already said they just run after detection. Well on some maps, since detection is 20 trace and you only get 50, you will definitely get to max trace. You will be running through multiple turn based encounter and will have to finish a fight probably near whatever hack packet you want and you won't be able to disconnect without a penalty. And doing things this way will take like 5 times the turns in meatspace.

You can brute force your way through an entire matrix if you want. All these people whining about it with hand wringing hyperbole are pretty silly. Just brute force it if its not your cup of tea. Get a really good combat decker and a good combat team to defend them and voila. If you want more finesse then be fast and clever and you barely need to fight and barely need to defend your decker in meatspace either. Go one way or the other. Or a bit of a mix if you want.

You just need to use your head. If you have 60 trace for the entire systems the bump and run tactic doesn't really work.

Brute forcing isn't always an option. Since the matrix only counts turns when you are in TB mode if you introduce a time limit brute force isn't an option.

It's based on the number of runs I think, haven't seen anything different being unlocked due to missions, except the laser sniper rifle and that's given to you after a mission.

I ran through the game to the +1AP point twice and it is based on the number of runs, that's it.

So there are undocumented non obvious features and there is a lack of interface to show how things would work for that. Seems weird since they have the sight cone in matrix but NOT in meatspace. But they have a meatspace missions that needs it.

The game doesn't explain shit. One example is that cover gives added defense to AP damage, on the first turn enemies have more than 2 AP, it seems like non GL AOE weapons require a certain distance away from the target to actually do AOE damage, full auto knocks people out of cover, but not with the minigun. Since the game is riddled with bugs I'm not even sure some of these are unexplained or just bugs.

 

[imweasel]

it's a clear step backwards into biowarian story retardation and game design, when compared to Dragonfall...

Their fondness for the style of writing and character design that Bioware also uses was already quite obvious in Dragonfall TBH. Just minus the romance bits.

The engine for example needs massive upgrades if they intend to progress into more robust rpg systems.

Yep.

 

[Crooked Bee]

This is the first HBS Shadowrun game I more or less like. Racter is cool, and so is a lot of the writing. I didn't enjoy Dragonfall or SRR; this one is decent though, if still extremely simplistic. Some memorable missions and even decisions for one, of which there wasn't a single one in SRR or DF. The way you can shape your background through conversation options is nice, too. At the same time, combat is still crap, which makes me extremely wary about expecting BattleTech's "tactical combat" to be any good.

The new matrix is okay, even though the real-time stealth can be irritating. I really enjoy that number sequence hacking thing, but maybe it's because I'm good at it so it feels satisfying.

Am I supposed to just sleepwalk through all fights on Hard, though? (Rhetorical question.) I haven't even used a Trauma Kit a single time, and I think my stash consists of, like, 20 unused medkits. It is a shame, since this isn't the kind of game I see myself replaying, so having proper difficulty from the get-go would be a plus. I'm playing a Shaman for the record, and I've only summoned a spirit a couple of times so far; just using conjuring spells is powerful enough, given that everything is basically easy-mode even on Hard.

Still, this one's a bit better than the previous Shadowrun games writing- and plot-wise. Unfortunately, however, it's still the same thing combat-wise.

 

[fastjack]

I was really looking forward to this game and had fooled myself into thinking that at worst it would be another Dragonfall, while still hoping it would be another big improvement. I am about halfway through the game I reckon, and having read the last 10 pages of this thread it looks like most of us agree that the game is too wordy and generally less interesting than Dragonfall. As a huge Shadowrun fan I still appreciate all of the setting references and I'm able to geek out over some of the details they have included but the game's ratio of storytelling to gameplay is so unbalanced that I find myself wanting to put it down to play a game. At this point I feel zero agency at all as the player. They even tell me what my character is/was like in the Duncan conversations. Someone further upthread mentioned that it was a product of the advent of railroady rpg adventures and that is exactly how it feels, like playing with a gm who is telling you his story rather than letting you make yours in a world you don't control.

When it comes to the matrix I really wish they had taken cues from the Sega Shadowrun game, especially for the matrix. I felt that the Sega game's straight adaptation of 2nd ed. matrix rules was fun as hell and allowed you to stealth as well as brute force (to a point, like in pnp). Count me among those who are disappointed with the matrix 'upgrade' anyhow.

I am still enjoying the story and some of the writing, but I think that the game is way too verbose, has too little gameplay, and is generally less well crafted than Dragonfall which I think took the more-adventure-game-than-rpg SRR and somehow used the same engine/tools to make a really good rpg experience. Point being that someone needs to make a poll about whether Hong Kong is a crpg, an adventure game, or a visual novel so that I can properly vent my frustrations at getting wat is so far 90% visual novel when I was looking forward to an rpg.

 

[Ivan]

I made the rounds around the hub once you become one of the boys. Reading everyone's initial HELLO dialogues put me to sleep.

I forgot how finicky it is to click on characters for dialogue. I forgot how anemic the combat feels. did THE DIG run. Not being able to get Duncan to strength check the bookcase is retarded.

 

[CptMace]

I was really looking forward to this game and had fooled myself into thinking that at worst it would be another Dragonfall, while still hoping it would be another big improvement. I am about halfway through the game I reckon, and having read the last 10 pages of this thread it looks like most of us agree that the game is too wordy and generally less interesting than Dragonfall. As a huge Shadowrun fan I still appreciate all of the setting references and I'm able to geek out over some of the details they have included but the game's ratio of storytelling to gameplay is so unbalanced that I find myself wanting to put it down to play a game. At this point I feel zero agency at all as the player. They even tell me what my character is/was like in the Duncan conversations. Someone further upthread mentioned that it was a product of the advent of railroady rpg adventures and that is exactly how it feels, like playing with a gm who is telling you his story rather than letting you make yours in a world you don't control.

When it comes to the matrix I really wish they had taken cues from the Sega Shadowrun game, especially for the matrix. I felt that the Sega game's straight adaptation of 2nd ed. matrix rules was fun as hell and allowed you to stealth as well as brute force (to a point, like in pnp). Count me among those who are disappointed with the matrix 'upgrade' anyhow.

I am still enjoying the story and some of the writing, but I think that the game is way too verbose, has too little gameplay, and is generally less well crafted than Dragonfall which I think took the more-adventure-game-than-rpg SRR and somehow used the same engine/tools to make a really good rpg experience. Point being that someone needs to make a poll about whether Hong Kong is a crpg, an adventure game, or a visual novel so that I can properly vent my frustrations at getting wat is so far 90% visual novel when I was looking forward to an rpg.

"Too wordy/verbose" is not sufficient to explain how S:HK writing falls flat imo. I think the game seems too wordy because it fails at setting a clear hierarchy of priorities/character importance/info relevance. You'll get as much text when you ask Duncan about Raymond (which is supposedly the very subject of the plot) than when you ask that shaman merc, in the nightclub, about his hobbies and story (then you'll never see him again unless you hire him, which I doubt many players would do). It gives me the impression they could have used the same amount of writing to deliver a better balanced narration, with a thicker plot and more npcs implied in it, and therefore more interesting to talk to (than random folks in the hub and side-missions that is).

Problem isn't that the writing is bad in itself, it's not, but it poorly supports the design of the game as a linear story-driven experience in fine. Hence the impression I got too of it being too wordy (though it's not entirely false, some description bits are really unnecessary). It really feels like they wrote all these lengthy dialog answers out of some sort of "little game syndrome". Didn't play Dragonfall but I liked it better in SRR.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I was really looking forward to this game and had fooled myself into thinking that at worst it would be another Dragonfall, while still hoping it would be another big improvement. I am about halfway through the game I reckon, and having read the last 10 pages of this thread it looks like most of us agree that the game is too wordy and generally less interesting than Dragonfall.

The people who think the wordiness in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is too much will have a fit when they play Torment: Tides of Numenera.

Seriously though, I am very disappointed with the Codex right now. Since when did we criticise a game for having too much text?

I'm not far from the end now - I think I have completed all companion missions and runs (although it looks like the Isobel and Rachter achievements didn't unlock). I'm sitting on 14 hours. Unless the Plastic Faced Man mission takes 6 hours I just don't get how people are getting 20 hour playthroughs of this.

I guess that is my only gripe with the game so far - lack of content. I'd love these guys to make a longer game.

Everything else is great. Combat is just as tactical as it was in Dragonfall: Director's Cut, perhaps more so. Some fights are easy, some fights are hard, probably the way it should be.

Story is great, characters are interesting - especially Gaichu, Rachter, Gobbet and Auntie Cheng. Artwork is nice, just like it was in previous games.

Soundtrack is gorgeous and is something I will come back to for years to come.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

The people who think the wordiness in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is too much will have a fit when they play Torment: Tides of Numenera.

Seriously though, I am very disappointed with the Codex right now. Since when did we criticise a game for having too much text?

Storyfaggotry is dying. FINALLY!

 

[Mortmal]

The people who think the wordiness in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is too much will have a fit when they play Torment: Tides of Numenera.

Seriously though, I am very disappointed with the Codex right now. Since when did we criticise a game for having too much text?

Exactly my opinion too and was just chatting on shoutbox about it . Really astonished to read that kind of criticism on the dex. I knew the site was getting mainstream but even being pessimistic i never expected the corruption to be so strong.The steam board discussions are getting better than this... Hope the devs wont listen to that kind of criticism. They already made the combat even easier than in dragonfall cause of the whining.

 

[Darkzone]

Question on the Serial Killer Mission:

Spoiler

Is there any chance to convince Potter or what ever his name is that the Elders screwed up and hired Gaichuu to kill Maypai? And what did i miss to do it?

 

[Rake]

Exactly my opinion too and was just chatting on shoutbox about it . Really astonished to read that kind of criticism on the dex. I knew the site was getting mainstream but even being pessimistic i never expected the corruption to be so strong.The steam board discussions are getting better than this... Hope the devs wont listen to that kind of criticism. They already made the combat even easier than in dragonfall cause of the whining.

Well, it depends. While i am a storyfag and i wouldn't have a problem with an RPG completely devoid of combat, and it being completely linear and scripted on top of that for extra Codex Buthurt Points, it seems to me the critisism is that the quality/relevance of the text is all over the place.
And having walls of text while half of them are badly writen,boring, irrelevant to the plot is a problem. It's like a combat focused game where half the combat is filler trash. The amound of text isn't a good/bad thing by itself, the quality of text is what matters. It's a problem PoE also shared.

So while i'm taking all this 'too much text" critisism with a grain of salt, it doesn't means it's not valid

 

[Gord]

Am I supposed to just sleepwalk through all fights on Hard, though? (Rhetorical question.) I haven't even used a Trauma Kit a single time, and I think my stash consists of, like, 20 unused medkits. It is a shame, since this isn't the kind of game I see myself replaying, so having proper difficulty from the get-go would be a plus. I'm playing a Shaman for the record, and I've only summoned a spirit a couple of times so far; just using conjuring spells is powerful enough, given that everything is basically easy-mode even on Hard.

Well, it does seem to have a few harder encounters. Most were pretty easy, but the Soap Opera run had one slightly more difficult one and the Museum run even had me reloading and using 2 or 3 trauma kits. But maybe I just got unlucky with the dice rolls there.

 

[fastjack]

"Too wordy/verbose" is not sufficient to explain how S:HK writing falls flat imo. I think the game seems too wordy because it fails at setting a clear hierarchy of priorities/character importance/info relevance.

Yeah, I was thinking a bit about this and it really felt like 'cargo cult' design to me. I mean why do all of the other runners you can hire show up one at a time in club 88 (at least the 3 or 4 I've met so far)? I think it's because people liked the inclusion of the blonde chick in Dragonfall:DC. Why do all of the characters in the hub have stories to tell you that update after each run? I think it's because people liked characters like Simmy Kim in D:DC. The problem I think is like you point out that they made all of these characters equal. I think of them like the same shape in a new color and so not as interesting the second, third, etc time. Why can't I see one of the runners with a bad attitude out on the street hassling some blue lanterns instead of waiting in the bar to give his life story? Why can't Shang only spill his lifestory to other phys ads or characters with gang etiquette? Why do all of the interactions have to be so damn equal? Personally I think the reason is that on Hong Kong they are just aping what worked in the previous games and the gulf between something more inspired and something more derivative is huge.

The people who think the wordiness in Shadowrun: Hong Kong is too much will have a fit when they play Torment: Tides of Numenera.

Maybe I said wordy too much in my post because really I think my main gripe with the game is that it's too unbalanced, I feel like I spend the better part of an hour reading, then I go on a run which probably involves one or two skill checks walking through a handful of rooms, clicking on a few objects, about half of the one or two fights against a handful of opponents but mostly more reading. In my opinion in order to match the amount of reading in between runs the runs themselves should be at least twice the length with a lot of added decking/combat/exploration to break it up a bit. Am I the only one who has had play sessions of Hong Kong that were NOTHING but reading?

I just thought I'd add my opinion as a storyfag who loves Shadowrun as a setting and thinks that Dragonfall was one of the best crpgs I've played in ages that Hong Kong so far is enjoyable but pretty disappointing (as an game).

 

[Owlish]

It's not that it's wordy PER SE, it's all in the quality of the writing. 300k words about feelings, and how this is "NOT OKAY" and that's "problematic," is quite a chore and less than halfway through I stopped actually reading most of it. The box I clicked on doesn't matter 99% of the time anyway.

I really don't care to read the fanfiction-quality gratuitous word salad of tumblards. If someone of the caliber of Gene Wolfe were the principal writer I don't think very many people would be complaining about the amount of words. But those types write actual novels, and gaymers are stuck with the rejects that typically get their positions based on ideology or nepotism and not merit.

 

[Mortmal]

Well, it depends. While i am a storyfag and i wouldn't have a problem with an RPG completely devoid of combat, and it being completely linear and scripted on top of that for extra Codex Buthurt Points, it seems to me the critisism is that the quality/relevance of the text is all over the place.
And having walls of text while half of them are badly writen,boring, irrelevant to the plot is a problem. It's like a combat focused game where half the combat is filler trash. The amound of text isn't a good/bad thing by itself, the quality of text is what matters. It's a problem PoE also shared.

So while i'm taking all this 'too much text" critisism with a grain of salt, it doesn't means it's not valid

I think the text quality is not a fault in this game, the plot is quite atomized into several small independent runs, but he text is always relevant to the situation. Its like a collection of novels in one big interactive shadowrun book. Every companion has well written backstory, believable and clear motivations, each run has a purpose and a story backing it . Everything is coherent with the shadowrun universe.Really i love it all, i am not bored when reading it.

Its completely different than poe where backstories could have fitted in any generic fantasy game, their universe was jsut plain boring and dull.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

Am I supposed to just sleepwalk through all fights on Hard, though? (Rhetorical question.) I haven't even used a Trauma Kit a single time, and I think my stash consists of, like, 20 unused medkits. It is a shame, since this isn't the kind of game I see myself replaying, so having proper difficulty from the get-go would be a plus. I'm playing a Shaman for the record, and I've only summoned a spirit a couple of times so far; just using conjuring spells is powerful enough, given that everything is basically easy-mode even on Hard.

I think that the problem is that combat is no longer required for a good number of the runs and the fact that you're not fighting endless waves of goons (read: Knight Errant).

Your party is also fairly strong (except for Gobbet's shitty SMG) so combat is naturally easier.