Serious Business - Is Dishonored better than Thief?

[DalekFlay]

Thief and Thief 2 are surprisingly not clunky at all. You go back and play Tomb Raider 2 and... I'm sorry fans... it feels like a nightmare to play in some aspects. Thief and Thief 2 though still play great and smoothly, even better than some modern games with their checkpoint save bullshit and console focused menu design. So Dishonored surprisingly has very little "ease of use" style advantages. This means it's really about core gameplay and style. I love the style in both series. Separate but equal, as my grandpa would want, in my opinion. Gameplay... it's really about Thief's better objectives and stealth versus Dishonored's more fun powers and enemy interaction, I think. They're quite different experiences, at least to me. In Thief I'm trying to avoid guards and get away with the loot, and it nails that feeling, and in Dishonored I feel more like a predator, stalking people with my magic hands, and it nails that feeling.

In short they both excel at what they're trying to do and I love both. I voted equal.

 

[Tigranes]

I tried Dishonoured once. I climbed some scaffolding, and stood on a wooden beam directly above a couple of guards. I chucked some flammable thing right down at them, setting one of them on fire. The other guard proceeded to stare calmly at his buddy on fire, and neither of them looked up, even when I started jumping on the beam.

Then I uninstalled.

When I played Thief, during one mission I messed up, got spotted by a guard, and while running away got spotted by more guards. I ended up climbing on a bathtub where they couldn't reach me with their swords and they just stood there waving at me angrily while I killed them all with arrows.

Should I have uninstalled then?

I mean, at least the guards spotted you, so you got farther than I ever did in Dishonoured.

 

[smaug]

Depends, is being dishonorable worse than being a theif?

 

[AwesomeButton]

I'd say they're about equal for me. Thief is of course a timeless classic, I love it to bits, and the fan mission community keeps churning out top notch content. Dishonored is also great, though, and the level design of Dishonored 2 is some of the best level design I've seen in a commercial release ever. So when it comes to level design, the two series are about equal - Clockwork Manor, Grand Palace, etc, are amazing levels, but so are Bonehoard and The Sword.

When we go down to the systems, it comes down to preference I guess. Thief is the purer stealth game, and it's mechanically more solid in its stealth. You have great sound propagation, different surfaces have a different footstep loudness, light and shadow play a huge role in how easy you are to detect and the light gem always unmistakably tells you how obvious or hidden you are.
Dishonored has worse sound propagation, surfaces play less of a role in determining your footstep sounds, there are no major light and shadow mechanics, stealth is mostly line of sight based and you evade guards by hiding somewhere vertical rather than hiding in shadows.
As for the exploration, Thief has rope arrows for vertical movement while Dishonored has blink. Both have plenty of vertical exploration.
If you play without powers, Dishonored is actually harder to stealth than Thief. Guards tend to be a bit more aware and able to turn their heads, while in Thief guards can be cheesed quite easily. Knockouts are quicker in Thief than in Dishonored: the blackjack is instant, choking out takes a few seconds. Some guard patrols in Dishonored, especially Dishonored 2, are designed to require powers or sleep darts to take out. Most guard patrols in the original Thief games can be KO'd one by one with the blackjack. Dishonored also has dynamic patrol routes I think - in the flooded district level in Dishonored 1, I remember that a different guy took over a patrol route after I knocked out the original guard.

Overall, the Dishonored games aren't and don't want to be pure stealth games. Thief is better at that, but yes, the AI isn't up to par with newer games anymore.

I like them both about equally. Though Thief still has the edge simply because of the modding scene. If Dishonored had a map editor, it could surpass Thief at some point. But it doesn't, so it won't.

I was pretty disappointed with how easy Dishonored was, and Dishonored 2 didn't look much better? Would you say it deserves a try?

 

[JarlFrank]

I'd say they're about equal for me. Thief is of course a timeless classic, I love it to bits, and the fan mission community keeps churning out top notch content. Dishonored is also great, though, and the level design of Dishonored 2 is some of the best level design I've seen in a commercial release ever. So when it comes to level design, the two series are about equal - Clockwork Manor, Grand Palace, etc, are amazing levels, but so are Bonehoard and The Sword.

When we go down to the systems, it comes down to preference I guess. Thief is the purer stealth game, and it's mechanically more solid in its stealth. You have great sound propagation, different surfaces have a different footstep loudness, light and shadow play a huge role in how easy you are to detect and the light gem always unmistakably tells you how obvious or hidden you are.
Dishonored has worse sound propagation, surfaces play less of a role in determining your footstep sounds, there are no major light and shadow mechanics, stealth is mostly line of sight based and you evade guards by hiding somewhere vertical rather than hiding in shadows.
As for the exploration, Thief has rope arrows for vertical movement while Dishonored has blink. Both have plenty of vertical exploration.
If you play without powers, Dishonored is actually harder to stealth than Thief. Guards tend to be a bit more aware and able to turn their heads, while in Thief guards can be cheesed quite easily. Knockouts are quicker in Thief than in Dishonored: the blackjack is instant, choking out takes a few seconds. Some guard patrols in Dishonored, especially Dishonored 2, are designed to require powers or sleep darts to take out. Most guard patrols in the original Thief games can be KO'd one by one with the blackjack. Dishonored also has dynamic patrol routes I think - in the flooded district level in Dishonored 1, I remember that a different guy took over a patrol route after I knocked out the original guard.

Overall, the Dishonored games aren't and don't want to be pure stealth games. Thief is better at that, but yes, the AI isn't up to par with newer games anymore.

I like them both about equally. Though Thief still has the edge simply because of the modding scene. If Dishonored had a map editor, it could surpass Thief at some point. But it doesn't, so it won't.

I was pretty disappointed with how easy Dishonored was, and Dishonored 2 didn't look much better? Would you say it deserves a try?

I found it slightly harder but I play on full no-kill no-spot ghost mode. It's often harder to get non-lethal unspotted knockouts than in D1, and you can completely reject the outsider powers including blink. If you go with the combat approach it's still as easy as D1 I'd say.

The level design is absolutely amazing though, so it's worth it just for that.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Is this a joke question? Putting the equal sign between Thief and Dishonored? They have nothing in common.

 

[Serious_Business]

No

This should have been discussed before ; the problem with Dishonored is that it doesn't make the player feel vulnerable. This is a key component of stealth games ; if you don't have that, it doesn't make any sense, you remove all possibility of tension. It's not that the stealth gameplay is "not refined enough", but that it's entirely optional.

 

[Child of Malkav]

No

This should have been discussed before ; the problem with Dishonored is that it doesn't make the player feel vulnerable. This is a key component of stealth games ; if you don't have that, it doesn't make any sense, you remove all possibility of tension. It's not that the stealth gameplay is "not refined enough", but that it's entirely optional.

You also don't have the depth of the stealth system of Thief or Splinter Cell. No sound propagation. No multiple surfaces, nothing. But above all, it doesn't allow you to gather Information. You can't hide in shadows, leaning leads to detection, don't have access to cameras or drones or an equivalent of these in order to obtain Intel about enemies, number of them, level layout, plan routes, leading to trial and error. In Thief/Splinter Cell you can hide in shadows, have a scouting orb (Thief 2)/sticky camera (SC 1-4)/drone (SCB), sound propagation system (T1-2), 3rd person camera (SC), all of these allowing you to gather info. In D1/2 you have powers like Dark Vision and in Doto you have Foresight (a much superior power IMO) both of which allow you to gather information about enemies and places. But what if you do a no powers run? What are you left with then? Spyglass. Well, good luck using that because it's much more efficient to use when you're on a vantage point. But to get there you have to on the ground and leaning, spyglassing around corners is, to put mildly, a bitch. Trial and error galore. F5/F8 or 9 or whatever. They weren't designed to be played without powers. Sure, it's possible but they didn't think things through.
On your point of the player not being weak, I completely agree. In D1/2/Doto you slaughter enemies with extreme ease. That's not the sign of a stealth game. Stealth needs to be forced. Stealth is the antithesis of combat. You sneak and hide and manipulate enemies are environments because you can't succeed otherwise. Combat shouldn't be an option or if it is, it should be very tough to pull off.
Philosophically speaking, someone said stealth games are games about war of information. You need to gather as much info on your opponents as possible. Then you can plan and execute. Games that portray themselves as stealth games and don't give you means of gathering information can't be considered stealth games. Gathering information is such an overlooked aspect of the genre, you do it subconsciously, don't realise it but it's crucial and many games overlook it. In Styx 1/2 you have 3rd person camera, clone, invisibility, all means of Intel collection. In Aragami, the shadows and 3rd person camera and the shadows you create in order to avoid light. In Dark 2013, 3rd person camera and darkness. In Hitman, 3rd person camera and disguises, as well as traditional occlusion based stealth system. In Ghost of a tale 3rd person camera and disguises. In Mark of the Ninja, 3rd person camera, light and shadow, level layout and mobility. All of these allow you to gather information, all. Except D1/2/Doto.
Edit: typos.

 

[Lemming42]

Thief TDP is the best but Dishonored 1 isn't far behind it. The total lack of stealth systems compared to Thief sucks and the big problem is that the powers render the game a total joke (though they allow for some cool exploration), but if you artificially restrict yourself from using most powers and don't rely on the stupid perma-knockouts - just like in Thief - then Dishonored really is great. Oh, and needless to say, Dishonored needs to be played entirely/almost entirely non-lethally to be any fun because the combat sucks, but again, same exact thing applies to Thief.

The whole set of maps from escaping Daud's lair to re-arriving at the Hound Pits pub is an incredible section of gameplay. Seeing the corpse train dumping plague corpses into the valley below and then looking down to realise you're walking on corpses is 10/10.

Weirdly I couldn't get properly into Dishonored 2. Some of the level design is objectively good and better than Dishonored 1 but something about it just felt sort of dreary compared to the first game. Still finished it as both characters.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Thief 1/2 are much better and it's not even close. However, I did enjoy playing Dishonored 1, it's just a very different game and I think it's way more fun to use your gadgets instead of intentionally crippling yourself. I don't think the levels in D1 are particularly good, certainly way inferior to even the simplest Thief level. They don't account for the fact that Corvo is a superhero and you never have to think outside the box, even if you're larping a gimp stealth run.

I never got into Dishonored 2 much, should go back to it sometime as I've heard from monocled Codexers that the level design is ace. I bought it close to release and got discouraged by how much of a system hog it is on my ancient rig. I played a couple of levels (stopped after the Asylum I think).

 

[AwesomeButton]

Oh, and needless to say, Dishonored needs to be played entirely/almost entirely non-lethally to be any fun because the combat sucks, but again

That's my point - if I need to ignore more than half of the mechanics to make the game fun, then it's a badly designed game.

 

[DalekFlay]

I was pretty disappointed with how easy Dishonored was, and Dishonored 2 didn't look much better? Would you say it deserves a try?

Dishonored was mostly easy because guards didn't see you very easily. In Dishonored 2 they definitely see you more quickly and at higher elevations, at least on the harder modes. Is it a "hard" game in general though? No, not really. It's just harder to ghost/stealth.

 

[Lemming42]

Oh, and needless to say, Dishonored needs to be played entirely/almost entirely non-lethally to be any fun because the combat sucks, but again

That's my point - if I need to ignore more than half of the mechanics to make the game fun, then it's a badly designed game.

I agree with that but IMO you have to more or less ignore the blackjack in Thief and totally ignore combat to avoid the game being totally ridiculous. You definitely have to restrict yourself more in Dishonored to have fun, but it's a similar situation.

 

[JarlFrank]

Oh, and needless to say, Dishonored needs to be played entirely/almost entirely non-lethally to be any fun because the combat sucks, but again

That's my point - if I need to ignore more than half of the mechanics to make the game fun, then it's a badly designed game.

I agree with that but IMO you have to more or less ignore the blackjack in Thief and totally ignore combat to avoid the game being totally ridiculous. You definitely have to restrict yourself more in Dishonored to have fun, but it's a similar situation.

Going the headbop-knockout route in Thief actually makes it way easier than Dishonored once you're familiar enough with the AI quirks.

Thief is a lot more exploitable than Dishonored that way.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I've never wanted to exploit Thief, it couldn't cross my mind. The ambient sounds and listening for footsteps gets me too immersed, and I'm an inch away from shitting my pants all the time. Dishonored just felt like a game made for little children compared to Thief.

 

[Curratum]

I've never wanted to exploit Thief, it couldn't cross my mind. The ambient sounds and listening for footsteps gets me too immersed, and I'm an inch away from shitting my pants all the time. Dishonored just felt like a game made for little children compared to Thief.

So you chose to enjoy and immerse yourself in one game and not the other. Seems balanced to me.

 

[DalekFlay]

Dishonored has amazing atmosphere, and yes you have to avoid exploiting both games. Oldfags gonna oldfag though.

 

[Machocruz]

I never saw Dishonored as a stealth game. Did Arkane themselves push Dishonored as one, or merely that it had some Thief influences. It was the review sites and normies I saw calling the game a Thief successor and stealth game. But what it really was was a successor to Dark Messiah, which was no more a true stealth game. Stealth is merely an option and I believe that's how it was intended. Problem is the game is piss easy, like Human Revolution, so neither stealth or combat are satisfying. Further confirmation for me that games not built with challenge mind are a dead end in most cases

 

[Lemming42]

The game is absolutely a stealth game and I recall it being largely marketed as one. The fact that you could go through the game with no kills or "low chaos" (necessitating stealth) was one of the big selling points. The first level of Dishonored is entirely about teaching (and actively encouraging) the player to stay out of sight and avoid conflict, and it forces you to navigate the first couple of rooms with no lethal weapons to make sure you learn how to sneak.

Getting the good ending (which is the canonical, intended ending) of the game requires the player to employ some form of stealth for the majority of the game.

I can't see the Dark Messiah comparison at all. At best you could argue that it's similar to Deus Ex 1 in that it has a huge focus on multiple ways to reach and deal with objectives, your actions have an affect on the plot and game world, and neither the combat systems nor the stealth systems are particularly complex.

 

[JDR13]

Shocking results here at Grognard Central.

They're both good games. Thief is a classic, but why does one have to be better than the other? I'm sorry, but they're not that similar. Dishonored is more of an immersive sim than a pure stealth game.

 

[toro]

The game is absolutely a stealth game and I recall it being largely marketed as one. The fact that you could go through the game with no kills or "low chaos" (necessitating stealth) was one of the big selling points. The first level of Dishonored is entirely about teaching (and actively encouraging) the player to stay out of sight and avoid conflict, and it forces you to navigate the first couple of rooms with no lethal weapons to make sure you learn how to sneak.

It's not a stealth game because Arkane never implemented an illumination system: you can hide behind objects but you can never hide in the shadows.

Marketing is dishonest by nature: they can market poison as the cure for cancer. Basically nobody should care how they marketed the game.

The game's design is schizophrenic: they give you all the special powers to kill shit but the best ending is locked behind a ghosting path!? Now, that's completely retarded.

Dishonored is not even close to Thief's mechanics or atmosphere. It's a shitty game with exceptional level design. A squandered opportunity to create something remarkable.

 

[DalekFlay]

They're both good games. Thief is a classic, but why does one have to be better than the other? I'm sorry, but they're not that similar. Dishonored is more of an immersive sim than a pure stealth game.

Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. You can play Deus Ex as a stealth game too, quite effectively. Even "pure stealth games" like Thief and Splinter Cell can be played as action games if you want. Thief even opens with a dude getting an arrow to the fucking head.

 

[Lemming42]

The game's design is schizophrenic: they give you all the special powers to kill shit but the best ending is locked behind a ghosting path!? Now, that's completely retarded.

Dishonored is not even close to Thief's mechanics or atmosphere. It's a shitty game with exceptional level design. A squandered opportunity to create something remarkable.

Is Deus Ex (1, HR or MD) a stealth game? I know the distinction between immersive sim and stealth game is being drawn in this thread but I always considered Deus Ex a stealth game, regardless of the fact that the stealth sucks and Carter rewards you for ghosting by giving you pistol ammo.

 

[JDR13]

They're both good games. Thief is a classic, but why does one have to be better than the other? I'm sorry, but they're not that similar. Dishonored is more of an immersive sim than a pure stealth game.

Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. You can play Deus Ex as a stealth game too, quite effectively. Even "pure stealth games" like Thief and Splinter Cell can be played as action games if you want. Thief even opens with a dude getting an arrow to the fucking head.

Games like Deus Ex and Dishonored were made so that you can play either way just as effectively. That's the difference.

 

[Lemming42]

That's a fair and consistent definition but it does leave us with almost no stealth games ever created. Thief might be the only one (and that's really only due to the swordplay being bad enough to be unusable), since all the other big names in stealth like Hitman, Splinter Cell, Deus Ex, Commandos and so on can all be played as action/murderfest games.