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Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

Heroic Liberator

Heroic Liberator

Arcane
Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Oct 2, 2018
Messages
19,467
Martyr

Martyr

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Messages
1,180
Location
Bavaria
Temple of Elemental Evil
Ultima 6
Darklands
Wizardry 7
Daggerfall

I don't care about bugs and rough edges, as long as the game can be played and finished without too much of a hassle. that's why ToEE and Daggerfall are included. I've also never understood why ToEE is seen as a pure combat simulation with nothing else going on, there are more than enough good sidequests and also skill checks everywhere. plus the different beginnings based on your party's alignment. plenty of replay value because of that.
 
Vlajdermen

Vlajdermen

Arcane
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Messages
2,192
Location
Catholic Serbia
Lilura said:
Note how it says "a work". In other words, it isn't enough for an RPG to have great this or great that, but fail elsewhere. When taken as a whole, the RPG must equate to a masterpiece. Thus, Troika games are out despite my undying love for them.
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A game should be judged as a whole experience, not as a sum of individual elements. If Arcanum can end up leaving as much of a positive impression as Fallout, despite having unbalanced builds, it should be eligible as a masterpiece.
 
buffalo bill

buffalo bill

Arcane
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
1,054
BING XI LAO said:
Lilura said:
The RPG is not even complete.
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Also, thoughts on King of Dragon Pass? It's not a standard RPG, but worth considering, and very polished.
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I love KoDP, but definitely wouldn't call it a masterpiece (if being a masterpiece requires that the game be near-flawless, as the OP seems to think). For one thing, as far as I can tell, there is really only one viable way to play the game and win: be crazy generous all the time, don't pillage too often, and don't ever piss off the non-human enemies (e.g. trolls). There are other issues, like many of the seemingly-innocuous early-game decisions making the game completely impossible later on (e.g. your initial choice of an ancestral enemy), and it being kinda random whether you succeed at hero quests. Still, despite this stuff, it's a great game.

To OP: Deus Ex and Diablo? Seriously? I liked these when I was a kid, but they are pretty lame compared to any truly great game. Diablo has nice atmosphere, but everything else about it is total shit. Deus Ex lets you approach maps in various ways and has some reactivity, but at the end of the day it's a popamole first-person shooter.

To the list I'd add ADOM, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands , and (maybe) Pools of Darkness (other Goldbox games would fit also). Also maybe Caves of Qud, but the game isn't finished yet, so maybe they will end up fucking it up somehow. And Infra Arcana, the best game of the last ten years (well, AoD maybe).
 
biggestboss

biggestboss

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 16, 2017
Messages
528
"What is a masterpiece?" is the new "What is an RPG?"

For what it's worth, I agree with Lilura that a masterpiece has to have great craftsmanship/production value (objective qualities) in addition to being a fun (subjective) and well designed (objective) game.
 
Lemming42

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Lilura said:
it isn't enough for an RPG to have great this or great that, but fail elsewhere. When taken as a whole, the RPG must equate to a masterpiece.
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I don't think anything you listed fits this criteria. Deus Ex is pretty much the definition of "great this/that but fails elsewhere".

Same for M&B: Warband, it's one of my favourite games of all time but I don't see how it's got no failings when taken as a whole. It's a sandbox constructed of failings. Like Deus Ex, it's far greater than the sum of its parts. Should probably say here that I'm not really clear on the definition of masterpiece we're using.

Also not sure why you're so quick to write New Vegas off when it's very comparable to Deus Ex, both in strengths and failures. I think Deus Ex is the more impressive work overall but I'm not sure why Deus Ex is a certified masterpiece while New Vegas is a glorified mod.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
biggestboss said:
"What is a masterpiece?" is the new "What is an RPG?"

For what it's worth, I agree with Lilura that a masterpiece has to have great craftsmanship/production value (objective qualities) in addition to being a fun (subjective) and well designed (objective) game.
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Indeed, masterpiece is differentiated from classics, flawed diamonds and "my favorites". We are trying to look at RPGs that approach flawless victories here. That I don't have Baldur's Gate or Troika's trio in there should have been a dead giveaway, since I hold them in high esteem and have vested interests in overrating them.
 
V_K

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
Wizardry 7.
Quest for Glory 1 (I like some of the aspects of 4 better, but combat is a huge miss in 4).
Legend of Grimrock 2 (for those who don't find RT blobber combat automatically disqualifying).
Daggerfall, by way of sheer ambition.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Martyr said:
I've also never understood why ToEE is seen as a pure combat simulation with nothing else going on, there are more than enough good sidequests and also skill checks everywhere. plus the different beginnings based on your party's alignment. plenty of replay value because of that.
Click to expand...

Opening vignettes add almost nothing concrete to the game, and the sidequests/dialogue are rubbish as a rule of thumb. The true replayability of ToEE stems from its combat unit building, party creation and party composition concerns.

Repeat after me: "ToEE is a masterpiece."

Cue uproarious laughter. It's a cult classic, nothing more.

Holds true for Vampire Bloodlines, too.

No one laughs when we say Arcanum, which makes it a genuine borderline contender. But it is too deeply flawed and it's a clear decline on Fallout in respect to masterpiece status.
 
axedice

axedice

Cipher
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
483
Location
Mersin
If Torment, KotOR2 and MotB can't be on a list, then fuck that list. So fuck masterpieces. Who cares if some obscure 50 year old game was perfect for some saggy assed old shitlord back on their ancient times? I certainly don't.

:edgy:


Seriously though, diablo? Wasteland? Fucking Dungeon Master on motherfucking atari? I find the lack of storyfaggotrism on this thread disturbing..
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Maxie said:
a masterpiece is what lilura wrote a blog post about its really not that long a list
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There are 10 RPGs listed in the OP. Of those, I have covered 2. I have posted 130 write-ups on Baldur's Gate and yet didn't list it in the OP as a masterpiece.
 
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