Review RPG Codex Review: The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

[made]

No

Joined: Jan 28, 2011

Son, you were still scribbling Ultima fanfiction when Codex scholars were nodding their heads in solemn agreement that Witcher 1 featured some of the most profound writing in RPG history. At least the Polish-speaking ones; apparently it took Anglotards another decade to realize it.

 

[Infinitron]

Reposting my opinions on Witcher 1 writing:

No, the writing in Witcher 1 is just not good. Individual lines that are kind of cool? Yes. A few entire conversations that are cool, even? Yeah, I guess.

But it just doesn't come together. It's poorly paced. In the end, you barely have any idea what exactly happened. Take the game's third act, for instance, when you gain access to the Trade Quarter. That's supposed to be a cool part of the game full of conspiracies, political intrigues and stuff. But it's so poorly done that it just feels like a sequence of random events. I may have gotten more genuine Game of Thrones-esque political intrigue thrills from that single conversation you have with Triss and Zoltan at the bar upon arriving at Flotsam in Witcher 2 than in the entire third act of Witcher 1.

It's not just the politics stuff, though.

Take the second chapter of Witcher 1. Geralt is for some reason shocked, SHOCKED at having been ambushed by Salamandra agents in the sewers, despite the fact that they've been hounding him for the entire game prior to that and that the entire Temple Quarter swarms with Salamandra thugs at night (which in itself is incredibly silly). So he decides he needs to go to the trouble of hiring the services of a detective to uncover this mystery, and this somehow leads to a quest where he becomes convinced that somebody in town is evil or something, and sidequests entitled "Suspect: X" begin mysteriously appearing and disappearing from your journal for reasons that aren't entirely clear. OK, so none of this makes much sense, but at least there's some cool C&C at the end of it all, right? Except in the end you discover none of this is even the point of the chapter. Instead you're collecting stones to unlock some tower in the swamp, because...because...uh, something.

Like MasPingon said, you can tell they had lots of cool ideas and "set piece" concepts in mind when they made the game ("We want to have politics!", "We want to have a detective mystery!"), but they didn't really know quite how to put them together.

P.S. I agree that Witcher 2's third act feels weird, Angthoron. It feels incomplete, like there was supposed to be more exposition (about Foltest's kids who are suddenly kidnapped, etc), dialogue and reactivity there. I've always assumed it was unfinished. The EE tried to address this but it didn't quite do the job.

 

[Excidium II]

I piss on your juvenile scorn

P.S. I agree that Witcher 2's third act feels weird, Angthoron. It feels incomplete, like there was supposed to more exposition (about Foltest's kids who are suddenly kidnapped, etc), dialogue and reactivity there. I've always assumed it was unfinished. The EE tried to address this but it didn't quite do the job.

I think it was mostly because of how the game branches completely on ACT 2. It was kinda ambitious for an AAA

 

[Angthoron]

P.S. I agree that Witcher 2's third act feels weird, Angthoron. It feels incomplete, like there was supposed to more exposition (about Foltest's kids who are suddenly kidnapped, etc), dialogue and reactivity there. I've always assumed it was unfinished. The EE tried to address this but it didn't quite do the job.

Yet to play the EE, apparently there's now a nice combat mod to go with it, so once I replay W3, I might take it for a spin.

The problems the way I saw them were basically the very many sidequests, some of which had nice pay-off, and some didn't have any at all, which basically led to a situation of "Eh why did I do this, and why should I do the next one", for me at least. It had too much real filler. There's also what you mention, but the real killer for me is Act 2 end filler and Act 3 start filler. I want to do it because I want to see the pay-off, and at the same time I loathe doing it because it's so much busywork and some of it will be pay-off-less, like that goddamned "Kill a million harpies" quest. There's also too many loose subplots going on that are kinda hard to keep track of. What's my main objective? Find/save Triss? Find the killer of Foltest? Thwart the conspiracy? Oh and suddenly there's all this new cast of characters in A3 to meet, too, again, more diffusion.

Say what you will about the "Find Ciri" goal of W3, at least it's concise. Just find Ciri. Yeah, you'll do a fuckton of other stuff on the way, but your goal is clear anyway. W1 goal was pretty clear too, in the end of the day - stop the crazies. W2, no clear goal for the endgame, not really.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I'd also say it's a bit silly to point out how the most important stat by far is Geralt's level, character development is lacklustre, and combined with the way enemy levels work you're essentially staring at one and one number all the time as if it were some super-pretty Progress Quest... and then call it a 'minor flaw'.

I also don't think that's true at all?
I mean, the level system is pointless, I already pointed I would get rid of it entirely, but to claim that it is the one and only meaningful number in the game is just silly.
In fact, levels don't even play a particularly relevant role beside including a bullshit MMO-esque mechanic determining what range of enemies you can reasonably face and what not.
Apart from that, levels don't even tell much about how dangerous an enemy can be. Once you are in the middle range where you can face both, a level 13 gargoyle or golem/elemental/Ifrit is a far more relevant threat than a level 15-18 drowner or wolf could ever be, for instance.

 

[Infinitron]

P.S. I agree that Witcher 2's third act feels weird, Angthoron. It feels incomplete, like there was supposed to more exposition (about Foltest's kids who are suddenly kidnapped, etc), dialogue and reactivity there. I've always assumed it was unfinished. The EE tried to address this but it didn't quite do the job.

Yet to play the EE, apparently there's now a nice combat mod to go with it, so once I replay W3, I might take it for a spin.

The problems the way I saw them were basically the very many sidequests, some of which had nice pay-off, and some didn't have any at all, which basically led to a situation of "Eh why did I do this, and why should I do the next one", for me at least. It had too much real filler. There's also what you mention, but the real killer for me is Act 2 end filler and Act 3 start filler. I want to do it because I want to see the pay-off, and at the same time I loathe doing it because it's so much busywork and some of it will be pay-off-less, like that goddamned "Kill a million harpies" quest. There's also too many loose subplots going on that are kinda hard to keep track of. What's my main objective? Find/save Triss? Find the killer of Foltest? Thwart the conspiracy? Oh and suddenly there's all this new cast of characters in A3 to meet, too, again, more diffusion.

Say what you will about the "Find Ciri" goal of W3, at least it's concise. Just find Ciri. Yeah, you'll do a fuckton of other stuff on the way, but your goal is clear anyway. W1 goal was pretty clear too, in the end of the day - stop the crazies. W2, no clear goal for the endgame, not really.

I didn't mind the Harpies, other than the fact that their crap fills up your inventory and makes you walk slowly, and like an idiot I didn't install the unlimited inventory mod

I don't recall Act 3 having much filler either, unless you go around looking for it (wandering around outside Loc Muinne, or investigating some of the ruined bits inside it). IIRC you can pretty much go straight for the endgame.

The multiple concurrent plots stuff I found immensely cool and ambitious, they just needed more dialogue in the third act to settle you in. The first time I entered Loc Muinne after meeting Siegfried outside, I actually thought the game had bugged out because from the way characters talked it felt like I had already talked to people I'd never met.

 

[Carrion]

What's my main objective? Find/save Triss? Find the killer of Foltest? Thwart the conspiracy?

Depending on your choices it can be any one of those, the kingslayer probably being the most likely one. The right answer, though, is that you do it all FOR TEMERIA!

TW2's third act is massively improved by the EE, especially Roche's path that gets one of the best side quests in the game that both fleshes out the main quest and helps slow down the pace a bit. Iorveth's path isn't that much improved in terms of the main quest, but the new side quest is still really good and the storyline's straightforward enough to work as it is. The act still feels somewhat rushed in places, like a blend between an "actual" quest hub and a more straightforward endgame area, but the way it manages to build up intensity before the climax is great. TW2 is my least favorite Witcher game overall, but forming a two-man army with Roche, delivering some bloody justice and fucking up the plans of monarchs and nobles might be the highlight of the entire series for me.

 

[Tigranes]

I do find it hard to agree with your claim that it has fantastic pacing and has little to no filler. This is definitely true in the first half of the story, but things start to get very stretched after a while. Why did Novigrad have to basically be a wild goose chase? Why does Novigrad section start off with a fantastically ominous meeting with Menge, but he ends up being reduced to having basically no role in the main plot, and only a passive peripheral one in Triss'? Why does the war in the underworld thing, which is how Novigrad is defined in many ways for the player, come to nothing besides getting Dijkstra as a questgiver?

As side-stories, these are internally paced well each on their own. They may not fit well into the pacing of the main plot, but that part was never my claim - open world games will always drop pacing the moment you decide to stop following MQ, pretty much. Menge plot resolution comes rather abrupt though, yes. Dijkstra though... You're not supposed to solve everyone's problems, so to me, it works. He only needs your help with a certain task, you do it for him, each goes on the merry way. What was there to expect, exactly? Besides, you do get to choose a rather major thing involving him down the road.

I agree with all that. What I mean is the pacing in the sense of how various themes and characters come together. If you arrive in Novigrad and look up Triss, you are introduced to two major themes that govern the city: Menge's antihuman crusade, and the underworld of the Four Kings. These are both excellent themes, because they speak to (1) the 'point of no return' theme implicit all over TW3, including the decline of the Witchers; (2) the geopolitical situation, and the turmoils in Novigrad even as it stands as a bastion of neutrality. Sadly, both of them end up becoming pretty peripheral. Cleaver is someone you meet if you want some thugs while finding Whoreson Junior... and if you want to race horses. Whoreson Junior is a striking character and well done, but doesn't contribute to the themes I just described. Menge disappears and is basically a placeholder in every story.

The result is that when nonhumans start getting hung and butchered all over Novigrad, you don't feel a sense of dread, violence and hate that you did when things started to go to shit in Vizima. It all gets watered down.

They have done Bioware better than Bioware ever could

I get what you're saying but that's like, not exactly a compliment of any sort.

It's not anymore. But the Bioware of even the KOTOR/Jade/DAO era, I feel, filled an important part of the RPG industry. Pretty popamole but not insufferably so, competently epic without being fullblown porn retarded, a good romp when you wanted a simple break from more demanding real RPGs. Sadly, since then Bioware has not created a single game worth playing for more than 10 minutes. I like the fact that The Witcher has filled this 'AAA' gap - it's a role that Obsidian was unlikely to ever play for various reasons, and the same goes for inXile, Larian, Piranha Bytes, etc.

I'd also say it's a bit silly to point out how the most important stat by far is Geralt's level, character development is lacklustre, and combined with the way enemy levels work you're essentially staring at one and one number all the time as if it were some super-pretty Progress Quest... and then call it a 'minor flaw'.

That was sarcasm. I know some people don't read it well, but considering I just went over said features with hot iron, I'd expect people to pick up on it.

Fair enough, I skimmed the bits before it so maybe I'm just being an idiot about it.

 

[Paul_cz]

CDP and Obsidian have the best writers in the industry yes.
Although Obsidian is much weaker now without Avellone.
I am looking forward to see how well will Cyberpunk be written.

 

[Angthoron]

I am looking forward to see how well will Cyberpunk be written.

I'm looking forward to Cyberpunk as well. Will be interesting to see if CDP can keep up the writing quality and improve on gameplay all at the same time.

One thing they have for them so far is that their writers haven't gotten a prima donna treatment, which means that for a while they might still produce decent stuff.

 

[hivemind]

Cyberpunk will be a huge test in terms of game narrative design imo.
As of right now CDPR have written Geralt story which is fairly enjoyable but very different from a game narrative where you play a character that YOU create as opposed to a character from previously existing literature.

 

[MoonlitKnight]

I'm only 20 hours in but I'm rather disappointed that basically all choices so far were binary, and also that dialogue option were rendered down to 3 at best

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

How can you not even mention that game has the most fucked up leveling structure ever made in history of human race?

There's no way not to completely overlevel the main plot in this game, while being barely half into the game. Even if you strictly follow the intended llevels for locations, by the time you go to Skelige the main plot has 11-12 quests ,while you're 16. Combine that with level being the most important stat, and MMO-style mobs with levels, and the whole thing becomes a movie. The entire second half of the game combat becomes so trivial, I could press attack with my left foot toe, while juggling medieval axes that are on fire, and I would still smoothly win most of the fights.

They really shot themselves in the foot having completely open-world with no level scaling of any sort. They should've story-block the access to Skelige and Nowigrad and upsacle the everything once upon entry, based on your level.

And don't get me started about itemization, either. Why have hundreds of items, when the only things worth using are witcher-sets?

I like Witcher 3 overall, but the whole thing is carried by superior world-building and decent writing, and the rest of it is painfully average.

 

[Bubbles]

How can you not even mention that game has the most fucked up leveling structure ever made in history of human race?

Doesn't sound so different from PoE to me.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Pretty sure he covered the leveling system and its flaws tho...

Edit:
Neutral-positive review ftw

The problem with the leveling is Not the open world - it is the whole idea of advancing in so many levels so quickly.

There is no need for 70 levels of scaling. There aren't even enough unique enemies for it to even work without level scaling the drowners like they did.

Still, best game to come out in a while.

 

[Atchodas]

TLDR : Good Story + Good Setting ( Thanx to the book ) + Nice Graphix( which has been downgraded :D ) and rest is pure consoletardation = 1010goty

 

[Angthoron]

How can you not even mention that game has the most fucked up leveling structure ever made in history of human race?

Combine that with level being the most important stat, and MMO-style mobs with levels, and the whole thing becomes a movie. The entire second half of the game combat becomes so trivial, I could press attack with my left foot toe, while juggling medieval axes that are on fire, and I would still smoothly win most of the fights

Mentioned. To the point people are complaining I paid too much attention to it over the char-building. Which they're right about.

And don't get me started about itemization, either. Why have hundreds of items, when the only things worth using are witcher-sets?

Also mentioned.

How can you not even mention that game has the most fucked up leveling structure ever made in history of human race?

Doesn't sound so different from PoE to me.

Also mentioned

I'm only 20 hours in but I'm rather disappointed that basically all choices so far were binary, and also that dialogue option were rendered down to 3 at best

Some quests will have more than binary choices, but overall it's a lot of binary choices along one branch instead of few multi-choice solutions. I'm 'k with that, but there are times I wished for more options, too.

 

[Perkel]

Am I the only one who noticed already after Witcher 2 that CDPR probably had the best writers in the RPG industry?

Their only flaw (and you might consider it a big one) is that they're wedded to a particular setting, so it's unclear how well they'd do if more imagination was required.

I disagree.

If you look at TW1 it is as consistent in its writing as TW3 and even more so than TW2.
Difference here is that TW2 version didn't have shitty translation and VA. Even "fixed" translation is wooden compared to polish one.
What TW3 did is that they finally reached level where both Polish and Eng version are at more or less the same level.

As for second. Imagine this. Cyberpunk RPG.
How many of us want from Obsidian cyberpunk RPG focused on story ?

 

[Eyestabber]

Say what you will about the "Find Ciri" goal of W3, at least it's concise. Just find Ciri. Yeah, you'll do a fuckton of other stuff on the way, but your goal is clear anyway. W1 goal was pretty clear too, in the end of the day - stop the crazies. W2, no clear goal for the endgame, not really.

Catch the Kingslayer, clear your name. That's TW2 endgame, man. You end up dabbling on some conspiracy stuff along the way, but finding Foltest's killer has ALWAYS been Geralt's objective from day one. Unlike PoE (this is becoming a case of ), Witcher 2 manages to pull the whole "victim of circumstance" thing perfectly. Letho Killed him, he had no intention of fucking you over, but he did and people believe Geralt killed the king because (a) he was the last person seen with Foltest prior to his death and (b) he is a mutant scum and mutants are evil assholes (read "Monstrum, a Portrayal of Witchers").

TW2 puts you in the middle of several political plots and conspiracies, but make no mistake: your GOAL is to find the kingslayer, it's NOT about saving Temeria, it's NOT about preserving the La Vallete dynasty to have some bro chat with Aryan in act 3 and it's definitely NOT about nailing as many womyn as possible (though the last one is quite popular, for some reason ). Feel free to ignore every single one of TW2 subplots, because that's kinda what CDPR did .

Spoiler

Where is Anais, you faggots!

 

[Atchodas]

Am I the only one who noticed already after Witcher 2 that CDPR probably had the best writers in the RPG industry?

not a hard thing to do when you got whole story and characters written in fuckin TWO BOOKS , all they have to do is not to go full HBO(raping GOT story) and they will have better stuff than any "game writer pseudo artist" can ever come up with

 

[Angthoron]

Am I the only one who noticed already after Witcher 2 that CDPR probably had the best writers in the RPG industry?

Their only flaw (and you might consider it a big one) is that they're wedded to a particular setting, so it's unclear how well they'd do if more imagination was required.

I disagree.

If you look at TW1 it is as consistent in its writing as TW3 and even more so than TW2.

Well, I agree with Infinitron regarding the pacing drop when you reach the Trade District. After the build-up in the previous act, I expected a bit more, but it kinda mellows out for a bit. Then again, I kinda appreciate that, too - the story did need to give the player a break so they could do side-story stuff and learn more about the setting and the players. Plus the Striga quest. I really rather liked it. And whatever the flaws W1 has, I'm ready to forgive a ton to it just for the endgame. I loved it. Can't say there's more than a handful of games that kept me awake from 2 to 4AM pushing on to see what the end will be.

 

[Angthoron]

Say what you will about the "Find Ciri" goal of W3, at least it's concise. Just find Ciri. Yeah, you'll do a fuckton of other stuff on the way, but your goal is clear anyway. W1 goal was pretty clear too, in the end of the day - stop the crazies. W2, no clear goal for the endgame, not really.

Catch the Kingslayer, clear your name. That's TW2 endgame, man. You end up dabbling on some conspiracy stuff along the way, but finding Foltest's killer has ALWAYS been Geralt's objective from day one. Unlike PoE (this is becoming a case of ), Witcher 2 manages to pull the whole "victim of circumstance" thing perfectly. Letho Killed him, he had no intention of fucking you over, but he did and people believe Geralt killed the king because (a) he was the last person seen with Foltest prior to his death and (b) he is a mutant scum and mutants are evil assholes (read "Monstrum, a Portrayal of Witchers").

TW2 puts you in the middle of several political plots and conspiracies, but make no mistake: your GOAL is to find the kingslayer, it's NOT about saving Temeria, it's NOT about preserving the La Vallete dynasty to have some bro chat with Aryan in act 3 and it's definitely NOT about nailing as many womyn as possible (though the last one is quite popular, for some reason ). Feel free to ignore every single one of TW2 subplots, because that's kinda what CDPR did.

Yeah, I know. That was mostly figure of speech - the story becomes very, very diffused at some point, you have lots of characters to keep track of, all of them seemingly important, and then the whole clear the name thing, which actually seems to be rather a non-issue for the whole of Act 2 while you're hanging out with Roche and buds. Everyone kinda drops all the suspicions from you for that whole time and it becomes about CROSSING THAT BATTLEFIELD GODDAMMIT. Though I gotta say, the sequence with flaming arrows was amazing.

Also, I'm kinda butthurt about the Dethmold subplot. He was a very interesting character from my point of view, and the resolution to his story is really abrupt and sort of weak. I mean sure, he had it coming based on his actions just prior to that, but overall, the character was way more complex than the treatment he got.

not a hard thing to do when you got whole story and characters written in fuckin TWO BOOKS , all they have to do is not to go full HBO(raping GOT story) and they will have better stuff than any "game writer pseudo artist" can ever come up with

Eight books, no?

 

[Perkel]

Am I the only one who noticed already after Witcher 2 that CDPR probably had the best writers in the RPG industry?

Their only flaw (and you might consider it a big one) is that they're wedded to a particular setting, so it's unclear how well they'd do if more imagination was required.

I disagree.

If you look at TW1 it is as consistent in its writing as TW3 and even more so than TW2.

Well, I agree with Infinitron regarding the pacing drop when you reach the Trade District. After the build-up in the previous act, I expected a bit more, but it kinda mellows out for a bit. Then again, I kinda appreciate that, too - the story did need to give the player a break so they could do side-story stuff and learn more about the setting and the players. Plus the Striga quest. I really rather liked it. And whatever the flaws W1 has, I'm ready to forgive a ton to it just for the endgame. I loved it. Can't say there's more than a handful of games that kept me awake from 2 to 4AM pushing on to see what the end will be.

I think there is a difference between pacing drop and deliberate pacing drop.

Act3 problem is in the swamps treking not in story or writing part. It is deliberate attempt slow down story under confusion (who is behing all of this) which leads to party which culminates in escaping to Act4.
Act4 does the same thing but doesn't hide it and doesn't have huge swamp area to trek.

Am I the only one who noticed already after Witcher 2 that CDPR probably had the best writers in the RPG industry?

not a hard thing to do when you got whole story and characters written in fuckin TWO BOOKS , all they have to do is not to go full HBO(raping GOT story) and they will have better stuff than any "game writer pseudo artist" can ever come up with

More books.

Partially you are right but CDPR own characters like Thaller or Baron are imo better than 3/4 of all Witcher books characters though they were writen using Sapkowski Principle. Take something you know and put it on head.

 

[Angthoron]

I think there is a difference between pacing drop and deliberate pacing drop.

Act3 problem is in the swamps treking not in story or writing part. It is deliberate attempt slow down story under confusion (who is behing all of this) which leads to party which culminates in escaping to Act4.
Act4 does the same thing but doesn't hide it and doesn't have huge swamp area to trek.

Good point. I do agree that the pacing drop is deliberate, and that it does work for the most part.

Swamp trekking would also not be so much of a problem if the player wouldn't have already gone to the swamp and done most of the stuff to do there. I didn't actually mind the swamp, but I really wished I hadn't done all the stuff there at that point.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Doesn't sound so different from PoE to me.

Well not quite. PoE just simply had some things giving too much XP, which is at least fixable with patches, which they've been doing to an extent with bounty quests. Witcher has it fucked up from the ground up and I don't see it ever getting better.

Mentioned.

You have a passage about leveling and its impact on char building and what not. But the thing that frustrated me the most was the bizzare structure of the main plot. Its ridiculously easy to overlevel even if you're going out of your way not to. And since main plot has the only real set-pieces in the game that means most challenging fights and encounters are automatically trivial.

Also mentioned

Yeah that you did, I just went on a roadside rant there.