Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

True but its to little, expecially in BG2. I might be wrong but I seem to recall rest random encounters were far more dangerous/annoying in the first game.

 

[roshan]

What VD said. Also, when you reload after a botched fight, it doesn't mean that your party somehow managed to magicall turn back time. There's no ingame explanation because safe/reload isn't an ingame mechanic.

On the other hand, if your party rest for 8 hours, this is what is literally happening in the gameworld. The IE games basically said "yeah it doesn't matter if your party decides to take regular naps in a monster infested dungeon, you can spend weeks or even years of game time there, who gives a shit"

Oh wow, so that optional mechanic broke your IMMERSHAN, but characters magically resurrecting after battle, quickly regenerating, and regaining all special powers, just like the T-1000 in Terminator 2 did not???

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

 

[Raapys]

Imposing artificial limits on resting in BG would have undesired side-effects. One of the most fun ways to play BG2 is soloing it with a spellcaster. Depending on the implementation of the resting limitation, it could very well make that approach impossible. Thus, by fixing that 'cheesy approach', you've suddenly removed a part that added a great deal of fun to the game.

 

[Bubbles]

Imposing artificial limits on resting in BG would have undesired side-effects. One of the most fun ways to play BG2 is soloing it with a spellcaster.

Undesired for whom is the question. I wonder how the BG2 devs actually envisioned their ideal player to behave during gameplay; I'm not sure if they expected people to do solo runs and massively handicap themselves to derive enjoyment from the game.

 

[Athelas]

I'm pretty sure the BG2 devs expected you to frequently rest, if only to progress the companion romances.

 

[Delterius]

No, not poorly designed, just openly designed. You are free to set the parameters of your own gameplay experience.

Roshan, the truth is at the end of the tunnel.

Spoiler

Now begins your journey to enlightment.

Spoiler

Keep going.

Spoiler

You are almost there.

Spoiler

Can you even imagine what awaits you?

Spoiler

Not much longer now.

Spoiler

~Here. We. Go

Spoiler

 

[Raapys]

Imposing artificial limits on resting in BG would have undesired side-effects. One of the most fun ways to play BG2 is soloing it with a spellcaster.

Undesired for whom is the question. I wonder how the BG2 devs actually envisioned their ideal player to behave during gameplay; I'm not sure if they expected people to do solo runs and massively handicap themselves to derive enjoyment from the game.

That's just it though. Solo-play was almost certainly not in their vision at all; probably not even a consideration at any point in development. Yet due to sheer chance, the combined result of their design decisions ended up making it not only possible but actually a perfectly viable and fun way to play the game. That coincidence has ended up at least doubling the amount of time I would otherwise have spent with BG2, since the majority of my (partial)playthroughs have been with a solo char.

And that's the point I'm making. Overdesigned games tend to ruin these opportunities because they're designed to be played in exactly one, two or three ways, with no leeway. This is true for pretty much all modern high-budget games. But in ye olden games, opportunities emerged due to developer oversight, lack of budget/talent or whatever, and thus opened up many fun avenues to explore.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Roshan, the truth is at the end of the tunnel.

Spoiler

Now begins your journey to enlightment.

Spoiler

Keep going.

Spoiler

You are almost there.

Spoiler

Can you even imagine what awaits you?

Spoiler

Not much longer now.

Spoiler

~Here. We. Go

Spoiler

No, actually:

On the other hand, if your party rest for 8 hours, this is what is literally happening in the gameworld. The IE games basically said "yeah it doesn't matter if your party decides to take regular naps in a monster infested dungeon, you can spend weeks or even years of game time there, who gives a shit"

Spoiler

My immershun iz borkan.

 

[Delterius]

Roshan, the truth is at the end of the tunnel.

Spoiler

Now begins your journey to enlightment.

Spoiler

Keep going.

Spoiler

You are almost there.

Spoiler

Can you even imagine what awaits you?

Spoiler

Not much longer now.

Spoiler

~Here. We. Go

Spoiler

No, actually:

On the other hand, if your party rest for 8 hours, this is what is literally happening in the gameworld. The IE games basically said "yeah it doesn't matter if your party decides to take regular naps in a monster infested dungeon, you can spend weeks or even years of game time there, who gives a shit"

Spoiler

My immershun iz borkan.

This isn't about immersion. This is about pretending that something external to the game, such as playstyle, is part of the game. This is about larping.

I didn't play any of the IE games while rest spamming. Limiting your own resting is something that I recommend to every single person I know can quickly pick up the rules system of BG and IWD. It just makes the games that much more interesting. But I'm not going to pretend that this is part of some fringe brilliance of the game's design.

 

[Sensuki]

I'd probably experiment with a combination of location based and resource based resting if I was to design a game like this. Camping supplies just isn't going far enough IMO, it is a cheap, shitty solution to the 'problem' that doesn't even really work.

Something like you can only rest at this campsite a limited number of times and only if you have resting resources of which you can only carry a limited supply of and you'll need to search the dungeon for them after you rest.

That would seriously piss off noobs, but I couldn't remotely give a damn.

I do like 5E's "short rest" idea though, so I'd probably go with that instead of per-encounters. Some of your abilities would refresh after a short rest (which would be like 1-2x per day) and the rest are per full rest.

Currently in Pillars of Eternity by the time you actually need a new camping supply (on Hard+) you've already found like 3-4 of them, so you just rest at the location of the last one, and pick it up.

 

[Lhynn]

Delterius using the oblivion card should be a bannable offense.

 

[Jasede]

The easiest thing to do is to make resting only possible when characters are tired; there could be a timer and you can only rest if at least, say, 14 hours have passed in-game. This should, of course, be optional, so that the apparently many bad players on the Codex can rest spam to their heart's content. Or run solo mages, which is fun. (Though I must add I ran solo mages for both BG games without resting much at all, using consumables instead.)

 

[Athelas]

Are you guys forgetting that one of the IE games did implement resting restrictions within dungeons/areas with hostiles?

Of course, you were also immortal in said game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ah, fuck off.

I'm sorry I shattered your fantasy that BG games had some kinda resource management thing going. Please don't kill yourself.

 

[Lhynn]

Ah, fuck off.

I'm sorry I shattered your fantasy that BG games had some kinda resource management thing going. Please don't kill yourself.

Nah, i think you got it wrong, Jasede told you you are full of shit.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Reloading and resting aren't the same thing. Hint: one's an in-game mechanic, the other isn't.

Bullshit. That's a completely arbitrary distinction between two different but essentially similar in purpose "reset buttons" and you know it.

Reloading is about trying to something again after you failed miserably. It's not and never was a game mechanic. Resting IS a game mechanic, designed to help you recover health and spells. It has some restrictions like no resting on the streets or no resting next to a group of monsters but they are easy to bypass (go to an inn or move away from the monsters).

Reloading is just as much as gameplay mechanic as resting, otherwise, games like Banner Saga would not restrict reloads as part of their basic gameplay principles.

You've heard it here first, folks. Reloading is a game mechanic!

Ah, fuck off.

I'm sorry I shattered your fantasy that BG games had some kinda resource management thing going. Please don't kill yourself.

Nah, i think you got it wrong, Jasede told you you are full of shit.

You mean I can't rest in the IE games almost anywhere? Because if I can, my point stands and it's Jasede who is full of shit and sweet childhood memories. Nice of you to whiteknight though.

 

[Copper]

I'd do it Bioshock 2 style, with a dose of Predator.

IN-dungeon resting is done in fixed 'defensive' locations, such as ruins, high ground, caves, etc, and consumes some resources as well. It's also a big 'come at me bro' sign, so the enemy forces will launch attack waves at you trying to root you out, but maybe you can lure them into your prepared traps, etc and waltz to the quest objective over their broken bodies in the morning.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why reinvent the wheel? Realms of Arkania had a fantastic camping system that was hard to abuse. You could rest anywhere but there was a real risk and a cost. Several unsuccessful attempts to rest could easily drain your resources instead of replenishing them and leave you in a worse shape.

 

[Lhynn]

You mean I can't rest in the IE games almost anywhere? Because if I can, my point stands and it's Jasede who is full of shit and sweet childhood memories. Nice of you to whiteknight though.

Resting and per day abilities arent the only resources in the game. You should know this.

 

[Suicidal]

You must be retarded. In PoE all my spells I need come back after I fight a mob, therefore draining no resources. In BG 2 I need to be careful with casting spells because I won't have them afterwards.

Mage and priest spells don't come back, so I try to limit their use and use only my cipher and chanter skills in small battles, I use one or two mage/priest spells in larger battles (usually I use Essential Phantasm because it damages enemies for the entire duration of the fight) and I use everything only if the upcoming fight is the area/quest boss and I know I will be leaving the dungeon after that.

Unless I'm one of you braindead fucking morons that can't decide for themselves that, just maybe, it wasn't intended for you to have your team -SLEEP EIGHT HOURS- after every fight. God, you guys are fucking stupid. Self-imposed, my ass.

Come on, Jasede, you're better than this. Read my post:

even though when playing IE games I did try to limit resting simply because resting in some dungeons carried the risk of having enemies ambush you

As I said, I didn't rest after every fight in BG2. In fact, I played it quite similarly to how I play PoE - I tried to limit myself to a few spells per encounter when it made no sense to go overkill and only went all out during boss fights or particularly annoying mobs. So for me both systems are literally the same shit. The only difference is that BG2 was more fun combat-wise because of its boss fights and unique enemies, but never did I feel that my resources were being drained by its waves of vomit-inducing trash mobs.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You mean I can't rest in the IE games almost anywhere? Because if I can, my point stands and it's Jasede who is full of shit and sweet childhood memories. Nice of you to whiteknight though.

Resting and per day abilities arent the only resources in the game. You should know this.

But what if I don't know that?



Anyway, Jasede said:

"In PoE all my spells I need come back after I fight a mob, therefore draining no resources. In BG 2 I need to be careful with casting spells because I won't have them afterwards."

Which was bullshit because you can rest immediately after a fight.

Now you wish to move the goalposts. Fine. Go ahead and tell us what other resources were in the game. Potions? Scrolls? I had chests full of the ones I found and never used, not to mention the ones you could buy. Anything else?

 

[Vault Dweller]

As I said, I didn't rest after every fight in BG2. In fact, I played it quite similarly to how I play PoE - I tried to limit myself to a few spells per encounter when it made no sense to go overkill and only went all out during boss fights or particularly annoying mobs. So for me both systems are literally the same shit. The only difference is that BG2 was more fun combat-wise because of its boss fights and unique enemies, but never did I feel that my resources were being drained by its waves of vomit-inducing trash mobs.

That I completely agree with. BG2 had a better encounter design (not that anyone's arguing) but you never felt that your resources were drained. You didn't have to rest after every fight as overall the game wasn't that hard (some exceptions apply), but you knew that the option was there and there was no real need to preserve spells. Use all you have until you run out, then rest.

 

[almondblight]

Nobody ever said trash encounters in PoE are great. They're worthless. Garbage

Yeah, trash combat sucks. Que surprise. Maybe if people like you didn't defend it so much, we wouldn't have that kind of garbage in so many games.

Make your own fucking decisions you little twerp.

Well, when people make their "own fucking decisions", you pull a Tim Schafer and tell them they're just playing the game wrong.

"People shouldn't be playing it like that, they're playing it wrong."
"OK, how should the game be played?"
"Make your own fucking decisions."

Airtight argument right there.

Look, I am tired of arguing about this. You just play your games and keep asking on forums "how often is enough".

Yes, and the fact that you think it's obvious how much you should rest yet are unable to actually give the number speaks volumes. "As often as is reasonable" is a pretty meaningless statement. Someone who rests once in a dungeon is going to be playing a very different game than someone who rested three of four times. People on the Codex have told me that the first fight of IWD is impossible without getting equipment first or that some fights in the AoD combat demo were impossible to win without relying on the RNG; pretty sure people like that are going to have an "as often as is needed" number a lot higher than mine.

At least the Oblivion larper could actually tell us the rules of his larp. What you're saying is "trash combat is good because it uses up spells, but whenever you feel like it's appropriate to get them all back push the button to get them back." Case in point...

resting only after running out of all (or almost all) spells

Trash encounters are to use up your spells. Then once they're used up, hit rest to get them all back.

 

[Lhynn]

You mean I can't rest in the IE games almost anywhere? Because if I can, my point stands and it's Jasede who is full of shit and sweet childhood memories. Nice of you to whiteknight though.

Resting and per day abilities arent the only resources in the game. You should know this.

But what if I don't know that?



Anyway, Jasede said:

"In PoE all my spells I need come back after I fight a mob, therefore draining no resources. In BG 2 I need to be careful with casting spells because I won't have them afterwards."

Which was bullshit because you can rest immediately after a fight.

Now you wish to move the goalposts. Fine. Go ahead and tell us what other resources were in the game. Potions? Scrolls? I had chests full of the ones I found and never used, not to mention the ones you could buy. Anything else?

Ops, misinterpreted. Yeah, theres no actual per day abilities resource management in most places in the game if you rest after fighting every spawn of kobolds and are fairly good at the game. If you arent very good, got few party members and a tough fight ahead, then yeah, resource management in the middle of the fight can be a reality.

To illustrate, i remember fighting abazigal and having to manage my immunity to lighting spells, as i had more members than castings of it.