Review RPG Codex Review: Darth Roxor on Disappointment, thy name is Pillars of Eternity

[Bubbles]

There's hardly anything worse you can tell about a game than it being "boring" or a "pain to finish".
It means it has failed at even having a reason to exist (for the user, I mean)

And yet it won Codex GOTY last year.

 

[mastroego]

Denial is a powerful force.
But time wins.

 

[Grinning Reaper]

Also, according to SteamSpy PoE only sold about 50K Steam copies in the last 4 weeks, although the game was released about 6 weeks ago. So I seriously doubt that PoE will sell anywhere near as good as D:OS. BTW, D:OS was #1 on Steam for 4 weeks and in the top ten for many weeks/months after that - PoE is already struggling just to stay in the top 20.

Well I guess reality is starting to sink in.
Infinitron, raving reviews and backers still in denial phase can only do so much.

Yes, I think the number of sales of a game is a very good indicator of quality. That's a great point right there.

Denial is a powerful force.

Indeed.

There's hardly anything worse you can tell about a game than it being "boring" or a "pain to finish".
It means it has failed at even having a reason to exist (for the user, I mean)

So, people who dislike a game saying they struggled to finish it proves that it's bad? Shit, half of the obsessive D:OS lovers here at the Codex admit that they struggled to play past Cyseal (or whatever the fuck it's called), if they managed to do so at all. And if only PS:T were on Steam, we could see how many people who own it actually made it through to the end.

After all, total number of sales + total number of morons who actually finished the game = gr8 gaim!!

 

[Ninjerk]

Also, according to SteamSpy PoE only sold about 50K Steam copies in the last 4 weeks, although the game was released about 6 weeks ago. So I seriously doubt that PoE will sell anywhere near as good as D:OS. BTW, D:OS was #1 on Steam for 4 weeks and in the top ten for many weeks/months after that - PoE is already struggling just to stay in the top 20.

Well I guess reality is starting to sink in.
Infinitron, raving reviews and backers still in denial phase can only do so much.

There's hardly anything worse you can tell about a game than it being "boring" or a "pain to finish".
It means it has failed at even having a reason to exist (for the user, I mean)
Sure, there are still players who are like "ehi, all in all, it was not so bad, I kind of enjoyed it for what it was", but the reality is that when it's PoE2 time they'll think twice about buying it since, at the end of the day, they'll have no lively, pulsating memory of the first one and they'll see things more clearly by then.

What's relevant is that a good portion of the Codex's user base knew exactly how this game was going to turn out months in advance

D:OS was a pain to finish, too, to be fair.

 

[Kz3r0]

We shouldn't want it to sell more, they might make more of these instead of something great.

Until now is The Obsidian game that sold the least, let's hope it'll remain that way.

 

[hemtae]

Until now is The Obsidian game that sold the least, let's hope it'll remain that way.

What are the latest figures we have for Neverwinter Nights 2? Steamspy says 197,807 ± 11,470 but it has some availability issues on Steam so I imagine GoG would have a higher percentage than normal.

 

[Hegel]

No chance in hell. Don't worry pal!

 

[Sensuki]

The steamspy numbers jumped like 40K today to over 400K

 

[hemtae]

There was a ~10% increase in about every game in steamspy. No idea what caused it.

 

[ROARRR]

D:OS was a pain to finish, too, to be fair.

Yeah the bloodstones were/are pain in the ass!

Denial is a powerful force.
But time wins.

Maybe it was just hope. I am sure people will have the same hope for PoE2....even more if Obsidian fixes a lot of stuff in PoE

 

[Mareus]

..a good portion of the Codex's user base knew exactly how this game was going to turn out months in advance

A good portion of the Codex's user base are morons or people who are so traumatized and brainwashed by the 10 year RPG drought that they forgot how to enjoy these types of games. When Dungeon Siege 3 is getting more praise from the Codex's reviewer than PoE, it is a sad day for the Codex.

 

[Darth Roxor]

When Dungeon Siege 3 is getting more praise from the Codex's reviewer than PoE, it is a sad day for the Codex.

Another one to add to the collection.

 

[Jasede]

Ah but Mareus, they're completely different genres of RPGs. There's no harm in saying, for example, "This game executed this sub genre A better than this other game executed sub genre B."
Didn't PoE frustrate you and feel you wanting? What's the point fighting identical encounters and going through a town that feels clinical and dead? What's the point deciding on your stats when they give you 3% extra damage, whoopee? Where's the joy of exploration when the game doesn't even have a cache to load areas reasonably quickly? And if I was going to explore a generic setting I'd rather take the Forgotten Realms, again.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Ah but Mareus, they're completely different genres of RPGs. There's no harm in saying, for example, "This game executed this sub genre A better than this other game executed sub genre B."

We must be fair ,DS3 is shitty ARPG too.Every important pillar of the genre sucked hard-itemization,skills,controls,progression.Only decent thing was the plot with somewhat ok-ish writing and some C&C.

 

[Israfael]

If you don't like PoE, you can just look at it as an engine tech-demo - same as NWN1 and NWN2 OC to some extent. Hopefully addons would have expand on reactivity and combat. The biggest problem is that they try to balance a single player RPG, which is a stupid thing to do, in my opinion. That's usually the source of the "un-fun", at least it is how it goes in the MMOs.

 

[Jasede]

Ah but Mareus, they're completely different genres of RPGs. There's no harm in saying, for example, "This game executed this sub genre A better than this other game executed sub genre B."

We must be fair ,DS3 is shitty ARPG too.Every important pillar of the genre sucked hard-itemization,skills,controls,progression.Only decent thing was the plot with somewhat ok-ish writing and some C&C.

That's true to an extent but I think as an ARPG-lite it was really quite good. It managed to streamline the usual action RPG game into a fast-paced arcade experience.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

No way,exactly because DS3 is ARPG-lite(whatever that means) it's horrible,the thing that redeemed it was the slight reminiscence of RPG dialog and C&C. Driving force to progress was the plot,something I can never say about any good ARPGs.For the storyfaggots it may be ok-ish.If I must compare DS3 to it's others in the genre I will be pissed the same amount as all the good taste codexers that shit on Pillars.

 

[Grinning Reaper]

If you don't like PoE, you can just look at it as an engine tech-demo - same as NWN1 and NWN2 OC to some extent. Hopefully addons would have expand on reactivity and combat. The biggest problem is that they try to balance a single player RPG, which is a stupid thing to do, in my opinion. That's usually the source of the "un-fun", at least it is how it goes in the MMOs.

All single player games are balanced, balancing is a part of the design of single player games. No consideration to balance would mean that every number value in a game's design was simply randomly selected with no regards to the other numbers, swords would do .0000303 damage while clubs would do 99483 damage, and elves would start with 639 strength while orcs would start with -1593.33 strength. Balance is simply the process of relating number values within the game to one another in a way that makes sense. It is, as I said, a part of the design of every single player game you've ever played. It is not a bad word invented by Sawyer.

It's fine if you hate PoE or think it's absolute garbage, but please stop perpetuating this retarded notion, which seems to be quite widespread here on the codex, that balance is a bad word or that it only belongs in MMOs or is unique to PoE. If you want to argue that the game is overly balanced, then feel free to do so (please include some evidence or ideas with your claim though); saying that the problem with a game is that the designers tried to balance it makes no sense.

 

[Mareus]

Ah but Mareus, they're completely different genres of RPGs.

Exactly why its retarded to even compare them. And I am not the one that did the comparison. I just commented on it.

Didn't PoE frustrate you and feel you wanting?

No. Some things it does better than my favorite games. Some things it does worse. All in all, I felt pretty damn satisfied after finishing the game and I will definitely replay it when the expansion comes out.

What's the point fighting identical encounters and going through a town that feels clinical and dead?

I seriously don't know what you are referring to here. The towns felt pretty much the same as in BG2, with the exception of kickstarter characters who just stand there as advertisement board (that shit needs to go Obsidian! Or make them act like normal people ffs!!).

Encounter design while it could have been better was decent and nothing worth crying about. I mean, combat in Arcanum and Fallout was atrocious, and yet these games are in my top 5 list.

What's the point deciding on your stats when they give you 3% extra damage, whoopee?

By that logic, whats the point in deciding on your stats in any game. In BG strength gives you +6 on damage when maxed out at 18/00. And btw, just as Roxor you are using hyperbole to make the game sound worse than it is. For example, I assume you are referring to might here since it is the only damage modifier. Might does not influence only damage. It influences also fortitude. The same can be said about every attribute and while 3% is not much, when you max it out, it can go well over 30% which is considerable.

Where's the joy of exploration when the game doesn't even have a cache to load areas reasonably quickly?

My areas loaded very fast. Don't know what computer you have, but it could be connected with that.

And if I was going to explore a generic setting.

The PoE setting is anything but generic.

 

[Jasede]

Well, I don't have time to address all your points right now, though some are okay.

But I need to point out that +6 damage in D&D is massive, 3% is tiny. You're even admitting they only really do something noticeable if you min-max. In BG, 1 point of damage is worth a lot more than that; and so is a reduction of 1 on our THAC0.

 

[Jasede]

No way,exactly because DS3 is ARPG-lite(whatever that means) it's horrible,the thing that redeemed it was the slight reminiscence of RPG dialog and C&C. Driving force to progress was the plot,something I can never say about any good ARPGs.For the storyfaggots it may be ok-ish.If I must compare DS3 to it's others in the genre I will be pissed the same amount as all the good taste codexers that shit on Pillars.

I don't know. See, you're viewing DS 3 in comparison with games like Diablo or something. Yes, it can't compete with that. It's downright terrible when you expect that. But what if you think of the game as a consoley action games with some RPG elements? I found the combat pretty satisfying viewed that way, especially the boss fights. Your mileage might vary.

 

[Israfael]

All single player games are balanced, balancing is a part of the design of single player games. No consideration to balance would mean that every number value in a game's design was simply randomly selected with no regards to the other numbers, swords would do .0000303 damage while clubs would do 99483 damage

Balance is not limited to the numbers - it's also means that all classes /builds / races etc have to be equal or close to equal in executing all kinds of tasks. For example, before Blizzard set on a crusade to balance everything (tm), very limited number of classes in WoW had an interrupt and/or stun ability in pre-Cata environment, and there were clear specialists that excelled in one role /function and were plainly bad / mediocre in others. That brought variety and allowed at least some kind of roleplay, as well as it allowed mediocre players to have a place in raids if they couldnt perform well enough on 'generalist' classes.

In Cataclysm, they attempted to fix the problem by homogenizing everything and giving all and everyone the toolkit to do the things they werent capable of executing before. The result was that the game became somewhat bland and all raid meta was basically constructed around the single variable - how much damage (tanks, dps) or healing you can pump out in a fight. I'd even say that move, although i'm in for a more dynamic gameplay, cost blizzard 2M+ subscribers. I had the same feeling while i was playing PoE (and i dont hate it - it's miles better than any popamole AAA has to offer) - i had no distinct feeling that i was playing a mage and i didnt feel that stats had purpose or clear-cut value. Maybe i'm still not versed enough in the system, but DnD didn't create that kind of feeling.

 

[Crooked Bee]

DS3's combat wasn't bad, the expansion was good, and I enjoyed the story too (it was subtler than what you'd expect from a hack and slash), but character development (including the amount and variety of abilities / skills / whatever those were called) brought it down significantly as far as I remember.

 

[Mareus]

Well, I don't have time to address all your points right now, though some are okay.

But I need to point out that +6 damage in D&D is massive, 3% is tiny. You're even admitting they only really do something noticeable if you min-max.

As in every game I have ever played. The difference with PoE is that you don't need to min-max in order to make a useful character. A fighter with low might and low constitution might not function as a tank, but he wont be utterly useless as he would be in Baldur's Gate for example. I tried creating an anti-fighter with a fighter class. I gave him low might and low constitution and low resolve, while raising intellect, dexterity and perception. It soon became obvious that using him as a tank is pretty useless, but after equipping him with 2 weapons and light armor, he wasn't a total wuss. High attack speed combined with high interruption rate worked out pretty nice. His high intellect allowed me to keep knockdown enemies on the floor longer and he worked out pretty ok as a support class which charges in and keeps biting at enemies while they are on the floor or unable to attack due to high interruption rate.

In BG, 1 point of damage is worth a lot more than that; and so is a reduction of 1 on our THAC0.

Agreed, but again... I don't see this as something worth crying about. Its just a different system which works somewhat different from what we are used to. All games that are not DnD use a non DnD system. So what?

 

[Israfael]

The difference with PoE is that you don't need to min-max in order to make a useful character. A fighter with low might and low constitution might not function as a tank, but he wont be utterly useless as he would be in Baldur's Gate for example.

That's the crux of the problem - if you can't loose, there is no joy in winning. Also, that 'all-inclusive' thing turns the classes into something as meaningful as classes in TES games.