Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

[ilitarist]

"What RtwP RPG should I play first?"

"Baldur's Gate 2 is probably the best expression of the subgenre, the premier example of everything that it stands for and all iliterates who disparage it should be banned from the Internet. With God's approval, Deadfire shall rival it in scope."
-Saint Sawyer, the German

Scope is the best thing about BG2 and one of the thing which PoE1 lacked compared to BG2, right next to crafting system raping item variety in pre-expansion days. Other things are either better, like everything about combat and character progression, or completely different direction, like dark historical fantasy atmosphere, wordcount bloat and story structure. If they perfect their own direction by adding things like reasons for player to progress and not throwing walls of text on us - scope will be the only thing that BG2 is unambiguously good at compared to PoE. Though I doubt they'll be able to make places as atmospheric as BG2 had them, BioWare is great at sound design for some reason and it made cities feel lively.

 

[Sentinel]

- Party ability scores count towards your score checks, making the player character even more irrelevant than they were in PoE1
- Deleveled player character back to level 1 for no reason, gonna have to progress through the same 9 levels of spells before you see anything new

PoE2 is already doomed to be underwhelming at best.

 

[Delterius]

lots of words about games, lol?

Oh man, can't you see? Pillars is just a boring game with lots of words and a setting I know nothing about. Baldur's Gate 2 is just 'trap choices' in the vast AD&D magic system. There's nothing to discuss. Games I don't like in an internet forum are nothing more than what my misinformed self makes them out to be via Roguey memes about Sawyer. Baldur's Gate 2 had way too many 'Hard Counters' to be fun. There's nothing redeemable about games whatsoever. Especially those pff 10 year old games that I played back in high school. I liked them then, but I'm all grown up now to enjoy video games without elegant systemics. Lol. Next you'll tell me someone should crowdfund a successor to those nostalgia ridden ancients.

 

[Darth Roxor]

dungeon siege 3

It's not a party RPG.

i beg to differ

 

[ilitarist]

- Party ability scores count towards your score checks, making the player character even more irrelevant than they were in PoE1.

Do you mean they'll make it so that my guy with biggest Might will be able to intimidate people? This is... bad indeed.

As for lvl 1 thing I don't see a problem with that. The system will be different anyway and most sequels do the same anyway.

Oh man, can't you see? Pillars is just a boring game with lots of words and a setting I know nothing about. Baldur's Gate 2 is just 'trap choices' in the vast AD&D magic system. There's nothing to discuss. Games I don't like in an internet forum are nothing more than what my misinformed self makes them out to be via Roguey memes about Sawyer. Baldur's Gate 2 had way too many 'Hard Counters' to be fun. There's nothing redeemable about games whatsoever. Especially those pff 10 year old games that I played back in high school. I liked them then, but I'm all grown up now to enjoy video games without elegant systemics. Lol. Next you'll tell me someone should crowdfund a successor to those nostalgia ridden ancients.

I'd suspect you are trying to accuse me of using Strawman Fallacy but it's not usually done by using Strawman fallacy.

 

[Delterius]

Its Strawmans all the way down.

Pillars of Eternity at least gave you some sort of combat engine with real decisions instead of figuring out which spells are added to game as a useless trap choice.

Yes, AD&D is just trap choices and BG2's combat system is just bad. Maybe if we'll have the final word once we act twice as edgy as everyone else in this thread. After all, it is Pillar's Truly Systemic System which has all the fun. Oh wait, it took a dozen patches for them to include some real meat into that combat system, which brought it closer to BG2 in terms of items, spells and abilities. Its almost like you didn't live through the days of Adragan's Gaze, when whole classes were trap choices.

 

[ilitarist]

Its Strawmans all the way down.

Everything here you put in my mouth except for BG2 combat being bad. Yeah, it's bad for lots of reasons, fake choices in spells being the most obvious. You can shout "reductionism!" just because someone doesn't bother with writing an essay on a subject. Actually, if that's what you want, shouldn't you like PoE writing more?

 

[Sentinel]

Do you mean they'll make it so that my guy with biggest Might will be able to intimidate people? This is... bad indeed.

Sounds good in theory, right?
Thing is, I haven't played a single RPG with that system that doesn't make the player character progression feel completely irrelevant and meaningless, since no matter what the fuck you pick you can pass any check in the game.

 

[Delterius]

Everything here you put in my mouth

Actually I just quoted you.

fake choices in spells being the most obvious

That there are some bad choices in the magic system does not describe the magic system in the slighthest. There's a whole thread in the forums about which spells to memorize as a level 1 Mage. Wether you prefer to disable single opponents, wether you prefer to disable hordes of weaklings or if you prefer damage spells right away for their interruption effect. I like Blindness myself. Spook if you're a Sorcerer.

But hey if you think Baldur's Gate 2 is just bad, that's your opinion. I think NwN has bad combat and lots of people disagree with me. All I said is that you should feel free to disagree with PoE's lead designer as well.

You can shout "reductionism!"

I can describe reductionism when I quote reducting words, yes.

Actually, if that's what you want, shouldn't you like PoE writing more?

Oh, you also think that PoE's writing is on the level of forum shitposting? Well, I don't think that fits CRPGs very well. Surely you disagree.

Do you mean they'll make it so that my guy with biggest Might will be able to intimidate people? This is... bad indeed.

As bad as the frail mage with low constitution and high might thrashing people around? But hey, simulationism is baaaad.

 

[ArchAngel]

Who cares about builds diversity when the settings, or the lore, is utterly boring crap.
Get over it. POE story is shit. Eora is shit. The story of the game is boring, meaningless, and makes no sense.
Go play a character build simulator mongoloids.

"muh build diversitee"

Yep, after 26 pages ruleset argument failed, "muh nostalgia", back to shitting on content. Well at least here I might agree some, even devs openly acknowledge game's objective shortcomings.

No, nothing failed. You can build diverse characters, that is the only truth about PoE. When it comes to playing the game with those characters than it fails big time. In combat, exploration and story. You know that 75% of the game content.
All you proved that you retards while saying you can be a chess grandmasters only proved you know that 1+1 =2

 

[ilitarist]

Sounds good in theory, right?
Thing is, I haven't played a single RPG with that system that doesn't make the player character progression feel completely irrelevant and meaningless, since no matter what the fuck you pick you can pass any check in the game.

It doesn't sound good in theory, I wasn't sarcastic. Can't believe they're doing this, it was one of the things that destroyed Numenera's non-combat gameplay.

But hey if you think Baldur's Gate 2 is just bad, that's your opinion. I think NwN has bad combat and lots of people disagree with me. All I said is that you should feel free to disagree with PoE's lead designer as well.

Not sure if this was a direct quote but I disagree with the notion that you can't criticize BG2.

 

[Delterius]

Not sure if this was a direct quote but I disagree with the notion that you can't criticize BG2.

Touchdown. The goal post is now unrecognizable.

First you wondered, what game could there possibly be that is, Goodness Gracious, even BETTER than Pillars of Eternity? A proposal was raised: the whole list of well estabilished CRPGs, including one called Baldur's Gate 2.

"Baldur's Gate 2?" the illiterait sneered. "That is such a bad game. I played it back in High School but am grown up now. I am ready to concede that it was good for a popcorn game but no more. Its combat is just bad. Its all about trap choices, really".

Except that it is not. I defer to Saint Sawyer Himself, Obsidian Avatar of Ma'at to defend its quality. And I bring some examples of my own. To disparage Baldur's Gate 2 on the basis of Roguey memes is the same reduction that Pillars people do. Something that I don't think even Roxor did in the neutral/positive review of Pillars 1.0.

And so we reach the endgame. "Well, not even Baldur's Gate 2 is immune to criticism!" Hah. Good switcheroo right there. I'm sure that's what it means to state the obvious: that BG2 is a good combatfag game that partly inspired a certain kickstarter series.

But by all means, you mutual haters can go back to arguing nothings amongst yourselves.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Oh wait, it took a dozen patches for them to include some real meat into that combat system, which brought it closer to BG2 in terms of items, spells and abilities. Its almost like you didn't live through the days of Adragan's Gaze, when whole classes were trap choices.

And modders put in a lot of work for SCS. The version history is long and quite tedious. But all that iterative work is what took BG2 from a great RPG to the #4 Codex RPG of all time.

 

[l3loodAngel]

]

PoE 3.0 has nearly as good if not better itemization than Shadows of Amn.

you cucks actually believe that?

Yeah it's definitely better than items like celestial fury or ring of ram which have their own effects... lol

Codex is gone bananas, it's like more like a professional fan site than something credible.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah it's definitely better than items like celestial fury or ring of ram which have their own effects...

You guys aren't even trying anymore. Plenty of PoE's items have unique effects. I highlight as much in the review.

 

[Ulfhednar]

]

PoE 3.0 has nearly as good if not better itemization than Shadows of Amn.

you cucks actually believe that?

Yeah it's definitely better than items like celestial fury or ring of ram which have their own effects... lol

Codex is gone bananas, it's like more like a professional fan site than something credible.

Have you played with Stormcaller or St. Ydwens Redeemer?

 

[ilitarist]

Not sure if this was a direct quote but I disagree with the notion that you can't criticize BG2.

Touchdown. The goal post is now unrecognizable.

First you wondered, what game could there possibly be that is, Goodness Gracious, even BETTER than Pillars of Eternity? A proposal was raised: the whole list of well estabilished CRPGs, including one called Baldur's Gate 2.

"Baldur's Gate 2?" the illiterait sneered. "That is such a bad game. I played it back in High School but am grown up now. I am ready to concede that it was good for a popcorn game but no more. Its combat is just bad. Its all about trap choices, really".

Except that it is not. I defer to Saint Sawyer Himself, Obsidian Avatar Ma'at to defend its quality. And I bring some examples of my own. To disparage Baldur's Gate 2 on the basis of Roguey memes is the same reduction that Pillars people do. Something that I don't think even Roxor did in the neutral/positive review of Pillars 1.0.

And so we reach the endgame. "Well, not even Baldur's Gate 2 is immune to criticism!" Hah. Good switcheroo right there. I'm sure that's what it means to state the obvious: that BG2 is a good combatfag game that partly inspired a certain kickstarter series.

But by all means, you mutual haters can go back to arguing nothings amongst yourselves.

Can't go any more straman-ish than this.

My argument was and still is that shitting on PoE the way it's done around here assumes access to some mythical perfect RPG. In the same post I mentioned BG2 and acknowledged people can like it for world and atmosphere and whatnot but the fact is its gameplay is inferior in alnost all regards I can think off. The only good I can say thibk of in gameplay terns is that BG2 is more mysterious in its systems, some people may like it. Nothing changed since then.

 

[Delterius]

Oh wait, it took a dozen patches for them to include some real meat into that combat system, which brought it closer to BG2 in terms of items, spells and abilities. Its almost like you didn't live through the days of Adragan's Gaze, when whole classes were trap choices.

And modders put in a lot of work for SCS. The version history is long and quite tedious. But all that iterative work is what took BG2 from a great RPG to the #4 Codex RPG of all time.

I don't disagree. SCS is a marvel of modding. In fact, avenger's work on Dragonspear's AI is the major factor why my review was, on the whole, meant as positive. But I think anyone who's dispassionate about these games can see the great irony I'm pointing out.

Pillars fans in this thread have taken to the strange tactic of accusing the games the inspired Pillars' kickstarter in the first place. I believe they fell pray to Roguey memes like Balance, Hard Counters and Elegance. But, in the end, Pillars' patching development brought the game that much closer to AD&D and BG2 in particular. The monty haul nature of the campaign combined with hard counters had effects on the spell, item and abilities of the game that turned everything to a new leaf by 3.0.

Once you realize that, there may be other reasonable aspects where Pillars may learn from BG2. Even as there are things in Pillars that I wish BG2 had.

 

[Lacrymas]

- Party ability scores count towards your score checks, making the player character even more irrelevant than they were in PoE1
- Deleveled player character back to level 1 for no reason, gonna have to progress through the same 9 levels of spells before you see anything new

PoE2 is already doomed to be underwhelming at best.

Wut? I didn't know the party will be able to pass checks for you. While I'm sure PoE2 won't have massive reactivity, it still slightly reduces replayability when you can pass every check from your first go. Why have checks at all then? For solo runs? lol

I'm pretty sure they deleveled us for two reasons. The first one is because of the new rules Josh wants to implement, there was no reason they couldn't just add more stuff on top of PoE1's system, but the new rules prevent that and it would've been strange to not recognize your character anymore and be totally confused with 16 levels worth of new things. If they had designed the levels after 16 in an elegant way the game won't devolve into a clusterfuck. The second reason is that they shot themselves in the foot by going to level 16 for all classes, it's easier to just swipe away everything than have to design high level encounters and spells. It sounds like I'm playing the devil's advocate, but I'm really not, I don't like that they are rebooting our characters, but I'm willing (probably naively) to give them the benefit of the doubt this time.

 

[Prime Junta]

gameplay is inferior in alnost all regards I can think off

The BG2 magic system is still richer and more engaging. Loads of stuff there.

As to the core gameplay, it's six of one, half-dozen of the other. DotAheads will prefer BG2 because it's more DotAlike, for example you can learn to cheese the AI in ways Pillars doesn't let you because of engagement.

Content is key though, and there BG2 is head and shoulders above Pillars, even with the WMs.

Systems-wise, other than magic, BG2 is far inferior in almost every way.

 

[Ulfhednar]

Oh wait, it took a dozen patches for them to include some real meat into that combat system, which brought it closer to BG2 in terms of items, spells and abilities. Its almost like you didn't live through the days of Adragan's Gaze, when whole classes were trap choices.

And modders put in a lot of work for SCS. The version history is long and quite tedious. But all that iterative work is what took BG2 from a great RPG to the #4 Codex RPG of all time.

I don't disagree. SCS is a marvel of modding. In fact, avenger's work on Dragonspear's AI is the major factor why my review was, on the whole, meant as positive. But I think anyone who's dispassionate about these games can see the great irony I'm pointing out.

Pillars fans in this thread have taken to the strange tactic of accusing the games the inspired Pillars' kickstarter in the first place. I believe they fell pray to Roguey memes like Balance, Hard Counters and Elegance. But, in the end, Pillars' patching development brought the game that much closer to AD&D and BG2 in particular. The monty haul nature of the campaign combined with hard counters had effects on the spell, item and abilities of the game that turned everything to a new leaf by 3.0.

Once you realize that, there may be other reasonable aspects where Pillars may learn from BG2. Even as there are things in Pillars that I wish BG2 had.

It would be stupid not to learn things from BG2, because it's a great fucking game. Very little of what I've said about BG2 is meant as an accusation, but an admission that there is lot of room for improvement in the AD&D system. That being said, there are a lot of PoE detractors here who are completely talking out of their ass.

 

[ilitarist]

Magic - maybe. I find it personally very irritating that there's so much difference in microcontrol between casters and everyone else. Plus unneeded spells.

 

[Prime Junta]

unneeded spells

Surprisingly few of them are actually unneeded. Detect Evil maybe. Most of even the quirky ones will have uses if you're clever enough.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I'm out for few days and you people make a 30 page thread about 15th review of Pillars?

 

[Shevek]

And the Codex loves PoE. The edgebabies lose.