Codex Review RPG Codex Retrospective Review: Pillars of Eternity Revisited

[ERYFKRAD]

His design 'sensibilities' appeal to joyless robots with no idea what made D&D fun. Why people still talk about this hack fraud is beyond me.

 

[Ventidius]

What does it matter if they have more options if the options don't feel meaningfully different? Answer me that.

If I give you 100 options and each one adjusts something by 1% into a direction each, that is far less valuable than having 5 options that change dramatically, just as an example.

Well, ideally, proper encounter design could solve this issue by allowing you to use different tactics depending on the party setup you are running - and one of the review's core claims is that PotD 3.0+WM actually implements such encounter design. Though I agree that the lack of spell variety seriously limits the ability to get creative in the ways you can defeat enemies, not to mention it also limits what they can do to you. I suppose you can still have tactical depth without that by making it all about positioning and priority of targets. Icewind Dale didn't really match BG2 in terms of the mage duels or fights against individual/small squad enemies that had a shitton of tools to screw you over with, but it compensated to some extent by making it more about positioning, tricky placement, and of course, huge freaking numbers. Perhaps PoE would have benefitted from taking a similar approach. Are there more "wargame" style fights against large quantities of enemies like in IWD with PotD/WM on?

 

[Sizzle]

What does it matter if they have more options if the options don't feel meaningfully different? Answer me that.

Don't know what to say. There's been plenty of talk about different builds here already - some have even linked the Obsidian forums where they regularly post off-kilter builds.

every class had its own specific 'feel' to it - I should know, I solo'd the game with every class when I was a teenager.

So did I. And I still claim that, for example, there's a bigger difference between PoE's Fighter, Ranger and Paladin classes - how they function, play, etc. - than between the IE's Fighter, Ranger and Paladin.

This argument will never be reconciled because some of you believe it's 'okay' to have the increase of 1 Strength be 3% flat damage whereas I would tell you that's horrible design in a game priding itself on trying to evoke the IE era feel while, somehow, missing all the things that made those games memorable.

I'm not a particularly big fan of PoE's approach, but I like it more than IE's "Between 8 and 15 Strenght, you get no bonus (apart from min. Weapon and Armor req.) whatsoever".

And I prefer a system where every attribute is at least somewhat useful to your character, regardless of what their class is.

 

[Mortmal]

The never ending Obsidian shilling is laughable. Hope you guys aren't doing it for free.

I think the following Obsidian games are mediocre at best and terrible at worst:

- Tyranny
- Alpha Protocol
- Neverwinter Nights 2
- Dungeon Siege 3
- South Park

But I suppose that doesn't matter because if you like Pillars you're automatically an Obs shill, right?

What if I'm overleveled for WM? I'm 12, is it just going to be a cakewalk?

There is a one-shot level-scaling you can activate when you start it, but you'll still have a somewhat easy time during the first half, probably.

Tyranny is shit till paradox marketing department orders a review, then you will change your mind. Tyranny expansion will magically fix everything that's wrong with it , it will be the second reason you still own a PC.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

"My fun is the TRUE FUN because I'm a basement-dwelling nerdy good ol' boy"

I find your principles to be obsolete and juvenile.

I played Baldur's Gate for the first time when I was in high school. It may have taken me a while, but I eventually stopped going "OMG, Fighters get special Strength scores and other classes don't? SO UNIQUE".

Funnily, against all odds they were actually given a game not long ago that would appeal to them, but they refused to buy it because it had a tranny in it (lol). You didn't though, so good on you.

 

[Grunker]

every class had its own specific 'feel' to it

Whether they are being disingenious or are just completely misguided, I think the people who claim more class diversity in the IE games compared to Pillars are what baffle me the most. It is so obviously untrue that just the basic reference to a Paladin versus a Fighter - who in the IE games are only set apart by a few spell-like abilities versus some more passive boni - makes you wonder at the amount of denial it takes to uphold this as an argument that AD&D is surperior.

 

[Lurker King]

His design 'sensibilities' appeal to joyless robots with no idea what made D&D fun. Why people still talk about this hack fraud is beyond me.

Because they want to isolate themselves in a dream world where you have a spiritual sucessor of BG2 ignoring the evidence that is before their fucking eyes.

 

[Grunker]

How did you kill the menace of Mowrghek Îen - Llengrath, Gafonercos and Turisulfus?

How many comments on the review have you written without having read it

SA has noticed this review: https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...rid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=209#post474087410

Making a game that a plurality of the Codex claims to hate but somehow can't stop talking about is Obsidian's finest achievement.

PoE arguably accidentally had hard counters in the form of certain battles that could be extremely challenging without a Priest's Prayers.

this is why u play w/o priest if u a real manz

How about a no-priest, no-scrolls playthrough?

Actually pretty much how I played

So to make game challenging

Strawman. SAD!

Where did I write the game was not challenging without it so I had to impose those restrictions? You will still have plenty of challenge with a priest, there are just some number of encounters that get easier with one. I didn't find the gameplay of casting "negate this ability"-spells in response to enemy offenses particularly enticing, so I chose to roll without one. It did enable me to roll with an additional controller or damage dealer, so it's not like the purposeful gimping is completely over the top, but it is harder to play without a priest in the end.

The no-scrolls challenge was because I wanted to see if it could be done, and it can. Some encounters get much, much harder without priests or scrolls, but it is doable.

I'm not sure I get the hatred towards self-imposed challenges. It's always been a core part of gaming for me, in nearly any genre. It can keep games alive for multiple playthroughs after you get good enough to beat their core content.

That something as core to gaming as enabling self-imposed challenges can suddenly be a negative trait shows how far the arguments are taken to cast anything PoE-related in a bad light. Why?

 

[Jasede]

every class had its own specific 'feel' to it

Whether they are being disingenious or are just completely misguided, I think the people who claim more class diversity in the IE games compared to Pillars are what baffle me the most. It is so obviously untrue that just the basic reference to a Paladin versus a Fighter - who in the IE games are only set apart by a few spell-like abilities versus some more passive boni - makes you wonder at the amount of denial it takes to uphold this as an argument that AD&D is surperior.

I get what you are saying. It's true that on paper a Paladin and a Fighter in BG1/2 are not very different. But they still ... feel ... more different. Weapon spec, for one. Look, here is the thing: everyone in PoE has some weird cooldown abilities or spell-like abilities, etc. But they're all faint and lukewarm and don't really have any weight to it. There's a huge difference between "Can have 5 stars in a weapon vs 2" vs "can cast some spells that are different, but similar, to the spells this other class can cast."

Do you get what I mean?

I will try to say it differently: because in PoE every class has similar, yet different variations, none of the 'diversity' feels diverse. If everything is diverse, nothing is - it ends up feeling the same, to me. Like- it does not matter to me you have more spells or perks or abilities in PoE if, relative to other characters, that doesn't feel all that different. Compare BG2: Weapon Spec (5 Proficiency vs 2) is a HUGE difference and makes Paladins and Fighter already feel very different. The binary 'can turn undead or not' is also a big change, and then there's the whole matter of party conflict. Having a paladin NPC in your party in BG can get ugly fast if you want to benefit from the mechanically excellent evil NPCs: Edwin is a matter mage than any player can ever be, the dwarf is an exquisite melee fighter, Viconia, once her Strength and Toughness are fixed, benefits from huge Magic Resistance, etc. etc. There is a real trade-off here.

Not to mention the paladin-only weapon that is incredible, which makes it a real decision whether you want 5 Proficiency stars or that amazing on-hit Dispel Holy Avenger. I could go on.


Basically: yes, on paper Paladins and Fighters do not look overly different at first blush in BG2. But the mere fact that the differences are small, yet relatively drastic, is to me far more interesting than them being very different, but only in many small ways.

 

[Infinitron]

So to make game challenging

Strawman. SAD!

Where did I write the game was not challenging without it so I had to impose those restrictions? You will still have plenty of challenge with a priest, there are just some number of encounters that get easier with one. I didn't find the gameplay of casting hard counters to enemy offenses in those encounters particularly fun, so I chose to roll without one.

The no-scrolls challenge was because I wanted to see if it could be done, and it can. Some encounters get much, much harder without priests or scrolls, but it is doable.

I think the accusation that Obsidian and Josh Sawyer made PoE too easy is the most valid one you can make, and damning enough all on its own. You shouldn't have to play on PotD to get a decent challenge.

But I guess it's not as satisfying as building theories upon theories about how his approach to system design is fundamentally shit and will always be shit, worse than D&D in every way, etc etc.

 

[Grunker]

I disagree completely. It's not in any way easier than the IE games or most other RPGs on those difficulties. BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems is fairly trivial for good players.

 

[Prime Junta]

small, yet relatively drastic

O_o

 

[Jasede]

What I mean is that their number is small, but their impact is large. For God's sake, use your brain's autocorrect feature!

I disagree completely. It's not in any way easier than the IE games or most other RPGs on those difficulties. BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems is fairly trivial for good players.

I find this a daring thesis. How can you judge how difficult it is, considering you beat it with Stratagems? Now you're so good that you have lost sight of how a 'normal' player would perceive the game. Once you climb the top of a mountain, every mountain small than that seems... well, small.

(That said - having solod'd the game day in and day out as a kid, I too cannot tell you accurately whether it has any challenge or not. I do seem to recall people complaining about liches, mind flayers and beholders on forums back in the day, though. Oh, and dragons.)

Anyhow, I am not saying you are wrong with the Paladin/Fighter thing; this might well come down to personal taste. The AD&D solution sits much better with me and that is that. I can explain why but have done so many times in the past and now believe this to be a mostly personal preference that is hard for others to relate to lest they share it.

 

[Roguey]

Normal players would consider PoE pretty difficult given google autocomplete.

 

[Jasede]

Well...

 

[Sentinel]

How many comments on the review have you written without having read it

I don't usually read garbage written by retarded fanboys, sorry.
I read some excerpts and decided I shouldn't waste my time.

 

[Iskramor]

Shilling intensifies... In all seriousness poe (complete with dlc's) was okay game circumstances taken into account ofc. Edge of bankruptcy lack of time and budget amateur writer with predjuice agaionst gamers in general *cough Carrie Patel cough*

 

[luj1]

Grunker stop embarrasing yourself

Nononono , please continue . He isnt aware of it, but with every shrieking whine he is extending our lifespans by +3%. Bless him

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

When the biggest public shill of the codex admits a criticism which is glaringly obvious:

I think the accusation that Obsidian and Josh Sawyer made PoE too easy is the most valid one you can make, and damning enough all on its own. You shouldn't have to play on PotD to get a decent challenge.

And when the reply involves this level of mental gymnastics:

I disagree completely.

You know that Grunkering is still proceeding with full speed.

 

[JarlFrank]

Why is this called a retrospective when it was only released like yester...

Wait, 2015 is 2 years ago already

 

[tripedal]

So, I was convinced to try WM. Literally the very first thing as you get into the expansion is half a dozen identical trash mob fights, followed by a "boss" fight that's just more of the same. I can't believe I actually fell for it.

And the trash mob fights have been made even more boring by the change to casters: it used to be I could spam low-level spells per-encounter. At least that was fun and cleared stuff quickly. Now I get a single use of a single spell per-encounter! Well, I'm sure it's more balanced this way!

 

[Ulfhednar]

Nostalgia is one of the most overused arguments in existence. By itself, it doesn't explain anything, it just paints every game (or another entertainment product) that stood the test of time with a wide brush.

There's a reason for the term "more than the sum of its parts", it's not always easy to pinpoint why exactly certain elements (that may not sound great in theory) come together to make one game an enjoyable experience and have lasting power, especially in a superficial analysis (that is mostly used to arrive at previously established conclusions). It's why the full extent of PST greatness for example is still lost on its detractors even after all these years ("It only has great writing, go read a book instead").

To even his most stalwart defenders it should be obvious that Sawyer's design sensibilities will not appeal to everyone (well except when we're talking about hipster base central like SA), nostalgia or no nostalgia.

Nostalgia is a real thing. To take the argument out of the AD&D/PoE realm for a minute - I love Zelda II: The Adventure of Link. I think it has great controls and a great difficulty curve. In virtually every internet poll/list about Zelda games, it is listed as people's least favorite Zelda game. The reason is that it is the only side-scrolling Zelda and it is tough as shit cause it was made in the 80s. But I didn't know that when I was ten and had to spend six months mastering the game because my parents wouldn't buy me another one until I finished it. And damn it felt good when I finished it. But most people hate the game because it wasn't like the first Zelda or any of the ones that came after it. I think the game is great mechanically, and it gets shit on more than it deserves, but in the end I have to acknowledge that, for me, a lot of the reason that it is "more than the sum of its parts" is nostalgia for when I was 10. The people who vote it down in Zelda polls aren't wrong, its just that my nostalgia gives me a clear preference and makes me defensive.

Being nostalgic is fine, but at least be willing to acknowledge your nostalgia goggles when someone says that AD&D fighters are objectively at their best with 18/18/18/*/*/* stats in BG2. That's factually correct. Acknowledge that the 18/** strength value for fighters ONLY is a rubbish mechanic, because it is. The part of you that can't pinpoint why the AD&D mechanics are more fun than other systems you have tried, the thing that makes them "more than the sum of their parts" is nostalgia. I love AD&D, and it is my preferred system to play in PnP. But the translation to cRPGs is rough, in part because their is no true DM to translate characters that are less than perfect into a meaningful experience. PoE has better build diversity than the IE games, and that is easily demonstrable.

 

[Sentinel]

So, I was convinced to try WM. Literally the very first thing as you get into the expansion is half a dozen identical trash mob fights, followed by a "boss" fight that's just more of the same. I can't believe I actually fell for it.

And the trash mob fights have been made even more boring by the change to casters: it used to be I could spam low-level spells per-encounter. At least that was fun and cleared stuff quickly. Now I get a single use of a single spell per-encounter! Well, I'm sure it's more balanced this way!

Told you. There isn't really such a great difference between TWM and the vanilla game. People really overhype it for whatever reason.

 

[Roguey]

Told you. There isn't really such a great difference between TWM and the vanilla game. People really overhype it for whatever reason.

The real Dark Souls starts with The White March part two.

 

[Stompa]

So, I was convinced to try WM. Literally the very first thing as you get into the expansion is half a dozen identical trash mob fights, followed by a "boss" fight that's just more of the same. I can't believe I actually fell for it.

And the trash mob fights have been made even more boring by the change to casters: it used to be I could spam low-level spells per-encounter. At least that was fun and cleared stuff quickly. Now I get a single use of a single spell per-encounter! Well, I'm sure it's more balanced this way!

It gets better but not the whole way. Real standouts are laguhafasgwhatever, bounties as usual, two fights in Durgan's Battery and a dragon. Everything else is a trash fight and damn there are a fuckload of those. Durgan's Battery is especially tiring since it just can't stop spamming either mobs of undead that are completely unthreatening or mobs of spirits that are annoying as fuck.