Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: The Banner Saga, 2D Turn-Based Strategy RPG

[Aeschylus]

Ok, let me revise my final sentence to "Learn how to play Go well". I.E. 'Master'. I think we might actually be agreeing with each other. I'm not sure ...

 

[Lord Rocket]

We are.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I've been looking at the video again, and start to wonder, what engine is used, as some people are speculating it's based on flash and run in a browser???

 

[Murk]

Skyway bashing is the new fad and he deserves it sometimes, but how do you explain complex systems = hard to learn, easy to master and simple systems = easy to learn, hard to master? I mean, is this a new rule no one seems to know about? Following the earlier example on chess, which is a really fucking complex game, are you actually trying to imply it's easy to master?

The discussion might be out of place because Banner Saga will never be JA2 or SS or in that level of complexity, and it's not trying to be. Whether that's right or wrong for a developer these days, feel free to DISCUSS all you want. But please, this is supposed to be a place for rational arguments rather than fist harvesting.

it seems someone beat me to it but anyway: Chess is easy to learn in that the actual rules of how each piece moves, what is difficult to master is the idea of actual strategy, sacrifice, baiting, and of course -- counting moves ahead with in-mind simulations.

As such -- easy to learn, hard to master.

Hard to learn, easy to master systems are those that have very little but the rules themselves, and there is no "make use of your tools" type of strategy that chess has -- basically, once you learn the difficult rules you don't have much else.

And since I'm bored -- here's a nifty figure.
X axis = time spent with
Y axis = difficulty

 

[SerratedBiz]

Perhaps our standards for 'easy' to learn are different: if we can use 'I learneded to play at 8' as 'easy' to learn, then I can very much guarantee I can teach an 8-year old to play JA2, SS or whatever you want. Furthermore, just playing any of these games doesn't require much preparation beyond 'right-click to move, right-click to shoot' - in this sense they are very, very simple games to learn.

But when I was talking about learning to play, I referred to the intermediate step between knowing to play and mastering the game, which is when certain techniques become available to you beyond the obvious 'here are the rules' learning to play. In chess, this will be certain movesets as they become available to you through the course of a game. In JA2, it'll be the more advanced options available to you such as suppression fire or camouflage. Keep in mind these are not -necessary- to play but rather the eventual consequence of putting in enough time in anything (and, in this regard, JA2's advanced options might be 'easier' to learn because the options are right there for you to use, and their effect is immediate).

Again, I'd like to see some kind of serious work detailing this rule. If it seems like I said you're wrong, I apologize: I just think you are. And Mikayel - yes, pretty graph.

 

[Brayko]

Update #4

We weren't planning on sending this out until Monday, but we couldn't help but notice over the weekend that about 8000 people like you have donated over a quarter-million dollars in under a week, which is, frankly, extraordinarily humbling.

That's why after trying to figure out how we can really express our gratitude we decided to give you free stuff. In a week filled with more good will than we've ever seen in our lives before, we're really proud to announce that anyone who pledges/has already pledged $50 or up will get all three parts of The Banner Saga - the full game - for free. We came into this Kickstarter campaign very hesitant about making promises about the second and third chapter but we think (fingers crossed!) that we're past worrying about that now.

Let's put it this way: to everyone who donated $50, you've already unconditionally told us that you have enough faith in us to put up 500% of the game's price to support us. We think you deserve the full game, and then some.

An immeasurable thanks to all of our backers; this is beyond anything we could have imagined.

-Alex, Arnie and John

So there, now would be a good time to go for that poster if you've been considering it. They haven't even announced anything 'social' yet!

 

[Crooked Bee]

That's really cool. Looks like I'll be getting all 3 parts, yay!

 

[kentable]

Yup, perfect excuse for me to grab a poster. How to hide it from the wife though...

 

[Aeschylus]

Update #4
So there, now would be a good time to go for that poster if you've been considering it. They haven't even announced anything 'social' yet!

Well, except for, you know, multiplayer...

 

[mindx2]

Their artwork and animation is really good and reminds me, in a small way, of some of the old Bakshi and Bluth stuff. I just hope the actual game-play matches this. Also, I'm such a geek that I WANT a boxed copy to sit on the shelf and keep my double Fine and Wasteland 2 game company !!

 

[Brayko]

Their artwork and animation is really good and reminds me, in a small way, of some of the old Bakshi and Bluth stuff. I just hope the actual game-play matches this. Also, I'm such a geek that I WANT a boxed copy to sit on the shelf and keep my double Fine and Wasteland 2 game company !!

Production and distribution would push the cost way up. Better off spending the money on a better game. See your point, though, there is a charm of having a copy in your hands as well as your HD.

 

[mindx2]

Their artwork and animation is really good and reminds me, in a small way, of some of the old Bakshi and Bluth stuff. I just hope the actual game-play matches this. Also, I'm such a geek that I WANT a boxed copy to sit on the shelf and keep my double Fine and Wasteland 2 game company !!

Production and distribution would push the cost way up. Better off spending the money on a better game. See your point, though, there is a charm of having a copy in your hands as well as your HD.

Well, in their latest update they did mention there looking into a boxed version so... you never know .

 

[skuphundaku]

Their artwork and animation is really good and reminds me, in a small way, of some of the old Bakshi and Bluth stuff. I just hope the actual game-play matches this. Also, I'm such a geek that I WANT a boxed copy to sit on the shelf and keep my double Fine and Wasteland 2 game company !!

Production and distribution would push the cost way up. Better off spending the money on a better game. See your point, though, there is a charm of having a copy in your hands as well as your HD.

The problem they have with creating a boxed copy is the expense of creating the custom packaging and the various swag in the box, because a physical box reward for a Kickstarter pledge isn't the same thing as releasing a boxed copy for classic brick&mortar retailers, so there are no distribution costs involved. From what I could notice, I think that their problem is them not being aware of the wealth of companies that can create custom disk packagins, not that having custom packaging created would be too expensive. They just need to google "custom DVD packaging" and that should solve their problem almost instantly.

 

[Lord Rocket]

I only wanted the poster anyway

stuff

Yeah sure, once you teach them what action points and visibility and how to equip stuff and aim and switch between guys and all that, yeah, JA2 could be taught to an eight year old just as easily as chess. You're assuming that these things are intuitive because you're used to them, but they are necessary to gameplay and someone who hasn't been exposed to them previously (I think it's fair to assume our eight year old hasn't played many games. Even if they have, chances are many of the conceits of turn-based games aren't going to be familiar to them) isn't going to know what they are.
Thanks for reinforcing our point about 'easy to master' with that 'and, in this regard, JA2's advanced options might be 'easier' to learn because the options are right there for you to use, and their effect is immediate' comment too. Would you like to be on our team now?

 

[SerratedBiz]

Except that you don't master JA2 just because you learned to use suppression fire, but rather in knowing when they're best used.

But, again, because it seems strawman threatens to remain: how established is 'easy to learn, hard to master' and 'hard to learn, easy to master' other than them being catchphrases that apparently support dumbing down games?

 

[Murk]

It's a common concept used in nearly anything that requires skill. Academia, computer software, gaming, sports, anything that involves developing skill/knowledge over time.

I use it when teaching statistical analysis in SPSS and Excel.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

How much interest is their in defiling this game by fundraising for a Codex Viking God? Or are people pretty KickStarted out already?

$2,500: The gods may be dead but they're not forgotten. BECOME A VIKING GOD in the actual game. We'll create a unique deity with your likeness and work with you on a great name and backstory for him or her. You'll appear in the game in various forms of effigy and be written into the lore, where all may see. Includes all previous rewards. Email us for more info.​

It means we'd have to aim for the $2,500 reward. Brofist this post if you would consider donating to such a cause.

I can see the mighty Codexian riding upon his trusty MHD and fighting off his nemesis the popamole already...

 

[Ulminati]

It means we'd have to aim for the $2,500 reward. Brofist this post if you would consider donating to such a cause.

Tentative Brofist. I already sent them jewgoldz for poster + postage and I was really intending my next Kodex Kash Kontribution to go towards serv0r upgradan.

 

[Lord Rocket]

Except that you don't master JA2 just because you learned to use suppression fire, but rather in knowing when they're best used.

Yes quite. So basically, learning JA2 is like dis:
1) discovering an option is there (there are many options)
2) understanding what that option does, which is not necessarily intuitive unless you are an afficianado of shooty games (TB or otherwise), an army nerd or a combat veteran (going back to our hypothetical little friend, do you think they know what 'suppressive fire' is? Probably not)

Mastering JA2 is like dis:

1) Understanding what's going on 'beneath the hood' when you invoke these options

Learning chess is like dis:

1) Where each piece goes
2) That a piece that occupies an enemy piece's space 'kills' the enemy piece

Chess mastery:

1) thousands of fucking moves and countermoves depending on any number of situations holy shit.

Or, if you prefer: have you beaten JA2? Congratulations, you've mastered the game! Could you beat Deep Blue? Probably not. Shit, you probably couldn't even beat faggy arse old 80s tech Deep Thought.
Neither could I, so don't feel bad. In fact I am super shit at chess and you would probably checkmate me within half a dozen moves.

Look I don't think anyone's saying that simple combat automatically = DEPTH, just that more features =/= DEPTH either (and more features often create dominant strategies, eg. Final Fantasy Tactics - which has a lot of skills and classes and character builds and is quite a complex game, inb4 CONSOLETARDATION - and it's Calculator abuse, simply because the creators can't necessarily foresee the consequences of a complex design. These artifacts naturally make games very easy to master when they're discovered).

 

[mindx2]

Well, reading their discussion forum on Kickstater it appears a boxed version and art book are not happening. Too bad but overall just a minor bump in the road as the gameplay and presentation (i.e. animation) are paramount for this project.

 

[Chewbot]

Well, reading their discussion forum on Kickstater it appears a boxed version and art book are not happening. Too bad but overall just a minor bump in the road as the gameplay and presentation (i.e. animation) are paramount for this project.

Yeah, sorry about this. A collector's box of the game really only makes sense if you've got an audience the size of Double Fine or inXile, for us it would mean a logistic nightmare for a tiny number of people. That said, we have been talking about having a collectors edition box version for when the entire trilogy has been completed. We'd be selling this on our personal store whenever that happens. Thanks for asking!

 

[mindx2]

Well, reading their discussion forum on Kickstater it appears a boxed version and art book are not happening. Too bad but overall just a minor bump in the road as the gameplay and presentation (i.e. animation) are paramount for this project.

Yeah, sorry about this. A collector's box of the game really only makes sense if you've got an audience the size of Double Fine or inXile, for us it would mean a logistic nightmare for a tiny number of people. That said, we have been talking about having a collectors edition box version for when the entire trilogy has been completed. We'd be selling this on our personal store whenever that happens. Thanks for asking!

Hypothetically speaking, at what point would it be viable? You still have 23 days remaining... just curious...

 

[skuphundaku]

Well, reading their discussion forum on Kickstater it appears a boxed version and art book are not happening. Too bad but overall just a minor bump in the road as the gameplay and presentation (i.e. animation) are paramount for this project.

Yeah, sorry about this. A collector's box of the game really only makes sense if you've got an audience the size of Double Fine or inXile, for us it would mean a logistic nightmare for a tiny number of people. That said, we have been talking about having a collectors edition box version for when the entire trilogy has been completed. We'd be selling this on our personal store whenever that happens. Thanks for asking!

Hypothetically speaking, at what point would it be viable? You still have 23 days remaining... just curious...

Yes, this is a good question.

 

[Chewbot]

Well, reading their discussion forum on Kickstater it appears a boxed version and art book are not happening. Too bad but overall just a minor bump in the road as the gameplay and presentation (i.e. animation) are paramount for this project.

Yeah, sorry about this. A collector's box of the game really only makes sense if you've got an audience the size of Double Fine or inXile, for us it would mean a logistic nightmare for a tiny number of people. That said, we have been talking about having a collectors edition box version for when the entire trilogy has been completed. We'd be selling this on our personal store whenever that happens. Thanks for asking!

Hypothetically speaking, at what point would it be viable? You still have 23 days remaining... just curious...

Yes, this is a good question.

Rough guessing here but a game usually wants to sell at least 100,000 copies to justify the cost of a box product. My guess is that Double Fine sells over a million once the final game is released. Even though we have 9k backers we would probably only be providing a box copy for maybe 500 people. More than that though, is just the time it would take us to create the box art, create an instruction manual with dozens of pages and illustrations and design an image to press onto a disc. If you've got 100+ employees like Double Fine, no problem. For us that means delaying the game probably up to a month, no joke. That kind of thing is incredibly time consuming. A lot of things about being a small studio are great, and other things (like this) are just a little beyond our reach.

 

[Kitako]

That's good. Boxed goodies are good, but when resources are numbered is better to focus on the game itself.
I'd prefer to see a good polished game with no artbook, if a choice has to be made. Still better than those shitty 8 pages PDFs people nowadays calls "goodies".