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Rome Total War II

Brinko

Arcane
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
884
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...War-Center&p=12805863&viewfull=1#post12805863
Combat changes

There have been big changes to the combat system for Rome II. I will talk about these changes in the context of some new stats: weapon damage and health.

Weapon damage is split into two parts, base damage and armour piercing damage (referred to as AP damage from here on out). AP damage is always applied but base damage can be blocked by armour. Melee weapons and projectiles have this damage split. Health is the amount of hit points a soldier in a unit has, and damage dealt reduces a soldiers hit points.

This system gives us a lot more flexibility in how we balance units. Whereas before an axe may have been set as armour piercing which would reduce target armour by half, the new system allows us to give axes lots of AP damage but little base damage so that most of their damage cannot be blocked by armour. Other weapons may have the other extreme, lots of base damage but low AP damage which would make them fantastic against units with low armour but weak against more heavily armoured opponents.

All weapons do some AP damage so you can always guarantee that no matter who is fighting who some damage will always be done, though this may be very little.

Health has been introduced as the system that damage affects, most units will have a similar amount of health (more for cavalry when mounted to show the hit points of horses) and armour will be a bigger factor in a unit’s survivability as that can block damage whereas health can only absorb so much.

Melee defence is still a factor and is matched against melee attack to determine if a unit will hit and then see if it does damage.

Shields in Rome II do not just provide a bonus to melee defence, they now can provide a bonus to both melee defence and armour when a soldier is attacked from the front or left. How much of a bonus is given to melee defence or armour is dependent on the shield a unit has in the database. So a hoplite shield will give a big bonus to armour but less to melee defence due to how it was held close to the body and could not be moved around lots, but a celtic shield will give a big bonus to melee defence showing how it was used much more actively.

Charge bonus now affects both melee attack and damage to reflect the changes made to the combat system.

All these changes allow for a lot more flexibility and more depth to be portrayed in the unit balancing and combat calculations. This system has more depth to it than any previous Total War games whilst keeping the rules simple so players can grasp what each stat means. All the complexity of the previous system has been retained with more added to it

A brief note here on ranged combat. With the way we display arcs to show the range of missile units, dynamic height based range bonuses are basically impossible to do as it is entirely dependent on who the unit is targeting. Instead we have implemented a damage bonus for ranged units firing down on enemies, and a damage reduction for ranged units firing up on enemies. This allows us to have an advantage for ranged units on high ground without massively complicated code for dynamic firing arcs with very few benefits.

The new combat rules also have one v many combat coded into them. The animations may look 1v1, but under the hood every available additional attacker is factored in and will result in a person surrounded by enemies dying a lot faster.

Morale Changes


There have been less code changes to the morale system, the big one being a smoothing mechanism to soften some of the big jumps between different morale values that can be caused by balancing. This, when combined with units being in the wavering state for longer will allow players more time to react to units in trouble and to try and boost their morale.

The morale values themselves have had a lot of changes, for example the morale penalty from being under missile fire is much greater in Rome II to emphasise the harassment nature of missile units and allow those ranged units to be less focused on just killing opponents and so offer a wider array of tactical uses. The morale effects for lost casualties and flanking have also ben tweaked to help make the cause and effect of player actions more clear in the battlefield and put more emphasis on good movement and positioning.

Unit Stat Scales

As some people noticed in the Teutoberg trailer, the stats for units are a lot bigger now. This is because we are using a wider range of stats for units in Rome II. For example in Shogun 2 morale may have gone from 4 to 15 for most units (excluding heroes). In Rome II it can go from 10 to 75.

This greater range allows us much more granularity in the bonuses we give from experience and in the campaign and also a greater range to differentiate units over.

Additionally, I should point out that the Teutoberg video certainly showed barbarian units breaking earlier and Roman units surviving longer than they will do in the final game. We tweaked this for the video so that the guy demoing it could actually get through the battle to the end without dying horribly halfway through. It can be hilarious when that happens for the fifth time in a row, but maybe not so much when we are trying to record a video to show you….

Below are images of some of the Greek shield patterns.

Bull.png

Octoups.png

Gorgon_2.png
 

aris

Arcane
Joined
Apr 27, 2012
Messages
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Hmm, not sure if incline or decline. I like the bigger ranges of possible values, allowing you to win more easily by techonological superiority.
 

aris

Arcane
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Apr 27, 2012
Messages
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I doubt it's marketing speech. This seems to be the developers talking to the most experienced players that knows the inner workings of the game best. There is really no marketing jargon here and it's way too technical to have any PR/marketing value.
 

Shannow

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This system has more depth to it than any previous Total War games whilst keeping the rules simple so players can grasp what each stat means. All the complexity of the previous system has been retained with more added to it.
A brief note here on ranged combat. With the way we display arcs to show the range of missile units, dynamic height based range bonuses are basically impossible to do as it is entirely dependent on who the unit is targeting.
:hmmm:
Still, sounds good, all in all. I'd also like a numerical stamina stat and a stamina regeneration stat. They should be influenced by environment, climate, morale and level of stamina.
And most importantly, those stats should be moddable, preferably in an actual, simple editing program. Editting text files was quite tedious.
 

Dead Guy

Cipher
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
So they can't make height affect projectile ranged because of how they "display the arcs"? Then get your priorities straight, fools. Just like you should have in Shogun 2, but oops, we built an engine for musket regiments.

Bullshit technology limitation cop out excuses. MASSIVELY complicated codedecline. This annoyed me to no end in Shogun 2, where enemy archers would approach a hill and sometimes even fire first on archers at the top of the hill.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Yeah, the archer thing sounds rubbish, though I'm not exactly sure what they mean. Other stuff sounds interesting and potentially great, though.

Heh. first time RTW2 news hasn't been shitty.
 

praetor

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now wonder their AI is so moronic if "dynamic firing arcs" need "massively complicated code" :D
 

MapMan

Arcane
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Aug 7, 2009
Messages
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Yeah guys, you're right, anyone could do better job than CA, I bet this is what theiir average programmer looks like:

ev8Cgjc.jpg


So yeah, surely when they say something is technically hard (for whatever reason, might be optimizations) then they must be braindead and average codexer (who also obviously happens to be an expert AI programmer and optimization specialist) could do a better job.
 

Dead Guy

Cipher
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
281
It doesn't have a fucking thing to do with AI, or how good anyone is at programming.

The problem is that someone made the decision that displaying arcs for projectiles was more important than that the projectiles actually behaved properly (I assume, from their statement). They're doing it ass-backwards, since both RTW and M2TW had elevation affecting projectile range. It was one of the main benefits of defending an elevated position and played hugely into tactical decisions, even where you put your armies on the campaign map in RTW/M2TW (another feature I missed in Shogun 2, little connection between campaign map and battlefield). It might be hard for them to code in this instance because of how they've chosen to do other things, what the fuck do I know, but then why did they decide to make it so fucking hard in the first place when they obviously didn't need to. They've handicapped themselves through shitty prioritization.

The damage penalty and bonus might very well bring about a similar and acceptable effect in the end, but I missed being able to put my archers in a position where they could fire from a cliff at the enemy without being fired upon at all in Shogun 2. I even missed some of the more exotic geography seen in RTW/M2TW in Shogun 2, where maps were much more flat most of time.

But I guess I forgot that you can't criticize something unless you can do it better yourself. What's next? "If you prefer those game mechanics you can still play RTW"?
 

oscar

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How hard is it to give archers a buff to range if they're standing on a hilltop?
 

aris

Arcane
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Apr 27, 2012
Messages
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The main advantage of having the high ground is that you have increased mobility, while they have decreased, and I think that you also get an attack bonus. Increased range is nice, but gives you an extra volley at most, which usually doesn't make that much of a difference, and most of the time, you won't even get an extra volley. From experience, it also seems like the units break more easily when fighting uphill, though I don't know the inner workings of the game when it comes to this.
 

Raghar

Arcane
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Jul 16, 2009
Messages
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Yeah guys, you're right, anyone could do better job than CA, I bet this is what theiir average programmer looks like:
So yeah, surely when they say something is technically hard (for whatever reason, might be optimizations) then they must be braindead and average codexer (who also obviously happens to be an expert AI programmer and optimization specialist) could do a better job.

You missed SW architect, but the above is fairly nice description of my work experience. However, I'm above expert in AI programming, because I did a lot of R&D in AI.
 
Unwanted

Cursed Beaver

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Main advantage of Bonus Range for higher elevation : It allows you to put spearman/melee guys in front of your archer while still being able to cover them from other archers.

It allows you to retrench yourself on a hilltop, and hold position. Hilltop and relief really becomes the main strategical element, and that gives them the importance they had in actual battles.
 

MapMan

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Aug 7, 2009
Messages
2,330
Yeah guys, you're right, anyone could do better job than CA, I bet this is what theiir average programmer looks like:
So yeah, surely when they say something is technically hard (for whatever reason, might be optimizations) then they must be braindead and average codexer (who also obviously happens to be an expert AI programmer and optimization specialist) could do a better job.

You missed SW architect, but the above is fairly nice description of my work experience. However, I'm above expert in AI programming, because I did a lot of R&D in AI.
Such a shame that you call yourself an expert in... well, anything. Especially as someone who calls himself a software architect you should know better that not everything is always as trivial as it seems or that given certain circumstances simple problems can become very difficult. My point wasn't that if you "don't like it then make better" but that none of you has slightest clue about how really difficult the problem might be so you should stop commenting on wether they're stupid or talentless.
 

Malakal

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Glory to Ukraine
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Actually I find defending on hills in TW games to be inferior to just defending on flat terrain or even better at the base of small hills - because you cant charge your cavalry from behind as easily since it would be charging uphill and thus be way less effective. But thats just my way of defense not being a static one based on archers.
 

oscar

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Yeah it depends on your faction. If you're got heavy infantry (or even better, phalanxes) plus good archers you're pretty much invincible. For a more mobile, light cavalry-based faction it can be a disadvantage (harder to flank and attack from the rear).

I imagine this will make it very easy to kite the AI off of hills and annihilate, instead of making a hilltop fight the bloody, grinding affair it should be. A bit disappointing that this hasn't been changed from Shogun 2.
 

Raghar

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Such a shame that you call yourself an expert in... well, anything.
What's your problem?

Especially as someone who calls himself a software architect you should know better that not everything is always as trivial as it seems or that given certain circumstances simple problems can become very difficult.
If you played P3 FES, that sentence reminded me about Mitsuru speech. http://www.veoh.com/watch/yapi-6j-C...+-+Mitsuru+Kirijo's+speech,+Police+store+open

When you have experience with game development, writing heavily mutlithreaded stuff that works without bugs is easy. Thought writing games is work hour intensive. And majority of that work can't be thrown at interns because quality would suffer.
My point wasn't that if you "don't like it then make better" but that none of you has slightest clue about how really difficult the problem might be so you should stop commenting on wether they're stupid or talentless.
I do know how this stuff can be done, and what to do to make a large project as Shogun 2 work properly from the third patch. They didn't.

Actually, I'm curious if any of you can write down 30 mistakes they did. (Lets use Shogun2, FOTS and Rome 2, and don't count the same mistakes more than once even when done in each game.)
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
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Rape
It's free for those who pre-order apparently. Them and Seleucids would be the best way to secure as much pre-jew as they can and since all the manboons knew who the spartans were, the choice was obvious.

Also, no Achaian League? :decline: Only force in greece unified enough to stop the romans and they aren't even in.
 

Volrath

Arcane
Patron
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May 21, 2007
Messages
4,299
Ugh, this means I'll have to pirate the eXtreme ultimate edition a year later. Fuckers.
 

Brinko

Arcane
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
884
http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War:_ROME_II_Collector's_Edition


The Total War™: ROME II Collector’s Edition will be produced in a single, extremely limited run; only 22,000 individually numbered copies will be manufactured.
The CE contains a wealth of bespoke, Roman-themed games and items, bound in a leather-effect presentation box, complete with gold logo and magnetic closure; including:
  • Numbered copy of Total War™: ROME II
    • The most ambitious and expansive game in the Total War™ series to date, ROME II brings the statecraft, politics, intrigue, diplomacy and epic battles of the ancient world to life in thrilling detail. This version comes in a debossed Steelbook™ case, laser-etched with your unique collector’s number in Roman numerals.
  • Tabula set
    • The Roman forerunner to Backgammon, this Tabula set comprises 30 bone-effect game-pieces supplied in their own burlap drawstring bag, while the board is built into the base of the Collector’s Edition box.
  • Tesserae Dice
    • Three replica bone-effect dice for use in a variety of games. The design is based on original Roman Tesserae, found at the archaeological site of Herculaneum.
  • Total War Cards™: PUNIC WARS
    • Designed from the ground up to echo elements from ROME II, Total War Cards is a game of skill and luck for two players. Involving combat, territorial control, resource management and technological development, PUNIC WARS consists of 58 high-quality playing cards and a game-board printed with the PUNIC WARS tech-tree.
  • Canvas Campaign Map
    • A reminder of the worlds you must conquer, this ribbon-tied canvas map depicts each of the 57 provinces of the ROME II campaign.
  • Roman Onager
    • A complete, fully-functional Onager, or Roman siege catapult. This easy-to-assemble kit is constructed from weathered wood and steel, measures 26cm x 12cm x 12cm, and is capable of unleashing mall projectiles at a variety of inanimate objects which may have affronted the glory of your empire.

A remarkable way to mark over 10 years of Total War games and Creative Assembly’s 25th Anniversary, the Total War™: ROME II Collector’s Edition is only available through selected retailers.
We will endevor to keep this page up to date with availbility listed, but please bear in mind we will only be doing a single run of these and once they are sold out we will not be making anymore.
  • Germany
    • Amazon.de (Direct link coming soon).
  • France
    • Pre-order links coming soon.
  • Italy
    • [Gamestop.it]
    • Multiplayer.com (Direct link coming soon).
    • Amazon.it (Direct link coming soon).
  • Spain
    • Pre-order links coming soon.

Head to the pre-order page for more infomation on the Greek States & where to get a standard copy: Rome2 preorders
Total War Cards: The Punic Wars

Also I tried using that Radious Mod I saw people talking about to deal the the RD. That shit doesnt work at all, I had 2 vassals and 3 allies all stab me in the back and that was after 10+ turns of being my ally/vassal. So yeah them having confirmed that the RD type thing will happen in Rome 2 pretty much cements me never touching it.
 

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