Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Wesp5]

Bathroom doors usually have locks on the inside so I don't see how she could lock him up there anyway (she could probably overpower him with her ghoulish strength and block the way but it's entirely different thing).

Yeah, I didn't go so far as too actually lock the door, but him standing in the open muttering "Stupid door." was just too stramge !

 

[Storyfag]

I might be 4 months late to the party, but that won't stop me from throwing in my 2 pence.

If we're going strictly by PnP rules, there is no way someone can reach a level 5 mastery over a certain Discipline in a few weeks with 0 assistance and tutelage. In all of WoD's lore, it has never happened, not once.

Tremere. Goratrix. Etrius. Et all. All transformed into 5th generation vampires overnight, using stolen Tzimisce blood and the unlife of a Tzimisce Methuselah. Do you think they found many teachers of Disciplines after this act? Yet they went on to found a very successful Clan.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Wesp5 - you're a fucking bro. Thanks for continuing to support this game for so long.

 

[laclongquan]

I will note that as far as I remember, no direct email from Strauss to anyone else beside MC. I could be wrong, of course.

And if I remember correctly VV reference Strauss once in her email.

 

[Delterius]

Don't be silly, you guys. The whole point of that ending was that you should have been more careful who you trusted. Changing it to "punching things saves the day" would be beyond feeble. Have MX poison your Pepsi or something if you need to justify it so bad.

There's no reason to assume that the player trusted her or hadn't planned to backstab her from the beginning anyway. In the end it's plain stupid to declare yourself True Camarilla/Anarch from the beginning and then fight both sides at their full strength rather than use the #2 power to help kill the #1 power in the city, then kill off the #2 power and declare the city to be Camarilla/Anarch.

Also Vampires don't drink Pepsi.

In the conversation with the cabbie it becomes clear that choosing any of the factons is to trust them with your protection. Your character is not planning to stab Ming Xiao but rather falling for her gambit. C&C.

 

[oscar]

The Ming Xiao ending was awesome for anyone mentally feeble enough to co-operate with someone who openly violently despises your entire species in the hopes of "I'm the PC, it'll be different, she really actually likes me". The ending is right to be the absolute worse with Ming herself taunting you for being such a wimp ("Do you really think I could let you exist within OUR Society?").

At least with LaCroix there's some logical reasons to support him (you've been with him so far may as well stick it through, perhaps you're a Ventrue and don't want non-Ventrue assuming leadership, he does show an increasing respect and honesty with you over time) while supporting Ming shows you haven't paid a drop of attention to the setting.

 

[santino27]

Besides that we finally fixed the get-stuck-in-doors-bug that was actually caused by too high framerates !

Oh awesome. Hated that.

 

[Delterius]

"I'm the PC, it'll be different, she really actually likes me".

Oh-ho-ho, yes, this could certainly be part of that. But I think you are actually selling this short. The genius of the finale is that when you have this back and forth with the cabbie its like talking with the DM about the story so far. The issue of clearing your name and getting out of this mess comes up and the question is how to best serve that end. After all, you presumably killed a beloved Anarch leader; betrayed the local Camarilla Prince; foiled the Sabbat and spited even the Giovanni. In here the developers take control of the discussion in a very subtle way. The player is allowed to express character through a number of very diverse views on each of the faction leaders as well the the city's future. Through that scene comes the rationalization behind every possible decision. And the Kuei-Jin option comes after you rule everyone else out:

"The Anarchs are done for without Nines."

"LaCroix tried to kill me."

"There's nobody left to take over the Camarilla." (in case you choose not to follow up with the Strauss ending).

"I'm going to die out there without support."

And so it boils down to "I don't necessarily like the Kuei-Jin but they are my only choice". The cabbie even warns you against it.

That much is clear. What is really interesting is how you even came about the Kuei-Jin as an option: the proposition from Ming right after killing Andrei and showing off your true power. Mind you that Ming's been scheming against you from the moment you stepped foot in Chinatown. And all of a sudden she's willing to put all her cards on the table. Strange, to say the least. Does she fear you that much or is there something else going on here?

Fastforward to the bit at the Werewolf park. The fact is that LaCroix called a Blood Hunt on you afterwards so it does make sense that he's the culprit behind the ambush. But why though? Why backstab you now? Perhaps because he fears your power right after wiping out the Sabbat. Well, a player with an engorged ego might rush to this conclusion after Ming's sudden proposal and Andrei's little tirade. But its not like LaCroix isn't used to having henchmen who are more powerful than him.

That's what the Sheriff is, in fact wiping out the Sabbat is kind of what LaCroix expected of him. The fact is the prince never really sure of himself. He always was a coward, wether you could kill ancient Tzimisce or not. So perhaps his issue is that he grew uncertain of his own ability to control you. That would explain why in the end siding with LaCroix is stil na option. Going back to Ventrue Tower is the amazing show of loyalty the guy needs for reassurance. And all of a sudden he wouldn't want you dead anymore. But there's still one question that lies unanswered:

Why would he wait so long to kill Nines?

Take a moment to step back and look at the Los Angeles chessboard. There are four factions vying for control: the Sabbat, the Camarilla, the Anarchs and the Kuei-Jin. Presumably, diplomacy isn't really possible for the Sabbat and they are at war with everyone by default, but especially the Camarilla. Meanwhile the other three are held frozen by a tenuous balance of power.

For the Anarchs L.A. is home turf so they have some sort of advantage there. However, they are also barely held together by charismatic leadership and for that they suffered a critical defeat at the hands of the Kuei-Jin recently. Ironically, the only thing that kept the Anarchs from final death was that the Camarilla stepped in and made things more complex.

The Camarilla are possibly the most widespread faction. However, they are fractured in clans and primogens, their Prince is weak and they are all the primary targets for the Sabbat.

The Sabbat's only real interest is undermining the Camarilla and securing the sarcophagus.

Now, the Kuei-Jin are truly alien to it all. They are a minority, but they are highly organized and unified. In turn, the only thing keeping them from defeat is that the Kindred haven't yet decided they hate Kuei-Jin more than one another.

So who benefits from a rightful death of Nines Rodrigues? LaCroix, certainly. That's where his plot with Ming came in. With the last and greatest of the local Anarch leadership gone, the faction would broken and the Camarilla would move in to unite the Kindred. But that was ages ago.

Ask yourself, who would the Kindred stand united against? The Kuei-jin. Now, who'd benefit from Nines' prolonged survival and the increased tensions amidst kindred as his own Blood Hunt lasts longer and longer? Ming Xiao.

For that matter, if you are LaCroix's eyes and hands in the City then he could not possibly know that Nines was hidden in the park. He could not possibly have set up the ambush in time. But Ming could and I say she did.

As with the Fu Syndicate and the Tong, so was the Garou yet another ploy to get you killed. But this time Ming's gambit accounted for your survival. All of a sudden her friendly approach sounds much more interesting than it actually is. You forget that Jack is just another character, that he's fallible and that much more likely to just blame LaCroix for the werewolf attack with no real evidence. You forgot that the Kuei-Jin hate all of the Kindred. As far as you know Nines is really dead and LaCroix tried to kill you. When in reality it was Ming, just trying to keep the Kindred from uniting. And you fell for it.

You fool.

 

[Athelas]

The Ming Xiao ending was awesome for anyone mentally feeble enough to co-operate with someone who openly violently despises your entire species in the hopes of "I'm the PC, it'll be different, she really actually likes me". The ending is right to be the absolute worse with Ming herself taunting you for being such a wimp ("Do you really think I could let you exist within OUR Society?").

At least with LaCroix there's some logical reasons to support him (you've been with him so far may as well stick it through, perhaps you're a Ventrue and don't want non-Ventrue assuming leadership, he does show an increasing respect and honesty with you over time) while supporting Ming shows you haven't paid a drop of attention to the setting.

Or it just shows that when you give a player an option or choice, they will always be curious to try it out ('what does this button do?'). Non-standard game overs are an RPG tradition, like the the option to join the Unity in Fallout 1 (incidentally made by the same people who worked on Bloodlines). It's incredibly obvious that Ming-Xiao can't be trusted even if you haven't paid attention to the setting.

I thought it was a missed opportunity. I don't think Kue-jin can Diablerize Kindred, so it would've been a great opportunity for an 'enemy of my enemy' type deal to overthrow LaCroix and get rid of the sarcophagus.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tremere. Goratrix. Etrius. Et all. All transformed into 5th generation vampires overnight, using stolen Tzimisce blood and the unlife of a Tzimisce Methuselah. Do you think they found many teachers of Disciplines after this act? Yet they went on to found a very successful Clan.

But it took them many years to master their new vampiric powers and to develop Thaumaturgy.

It was Goratrix, who came to the idea of using the powers of the Night-folk for their gain. After gaining Tremere's approval in 1005, he captured a Tzimisce, forced him to turn his two apprentices into vampires, and then killed him. He took his apprentices back to his chantry to experiment. After a year, he presented Tremere a potion that would allegedly give them immortality. The ritual, however, did not work as he had presented it: Tremere and his seven followers did become indeed immortal, but as vampires, meaning that they lost their Avatars and the ability to work True Magick. While there was much lamentation, Tremere quickly chose to make the best of the situation and he and his cursed followers stayed in Ceoris until 1029, slowly mastering their new forms.

 

[Azrael the cat]

"I'm the PC, it'll be different, she really actually likes me".

Oh-ho-ho, yes, this could certainly be part of that. But I think you are actually selling this short. The genius of the finale is that when you have this back and forth with the cabbie about the story so far and about how you might get out of the mess of being hunted by pretty much every single kindred faction out there (presumably you killed a beloved Anarch leader, betrayed a Camarilla prince, foiled the Sabbat and spited the Giovanni), the developers take control of the discussion in a very subtle way. The player is allowed to express character through a number of very diverse views on LaCroix, the fate of the Anarchs and such. Through that scene comes the rationalization behind every single choice. And the Kuei-Jin option comes after you rule everyone else out:

"The Anarchs are done for without Nines."

"LaCroix tried to kill me."

"There's nobody left to take over the Camarilla." (in case you choose not to follow up with the Strauss ending).

"I'm going to die out there without support."

And so it boils down to "I don't necessarily like the Kuei-Jin but they are my only choice". The cabbie even warns you against it.

Now, that much is evident. What is really interesting is how that came about: a proposition from Ming right after killing Andrei and showing off your power. This, mind you, after Ming's been scheming against you from the shadows since the moment you stepped foot in Chinatown. And all of a sudden she's willing to put all her cards in the table? Does she fear you that much or is there something else going on here?

Fastforward a bit to the werewolf park. The fact is that he called a Blood Hunt on you. So it does make sense that LaCroix tried to kill you. A player with an engorged ego might rush to this conclusion after Ming's proposal and Andrei's little tirade. But its not like LaCroix isn't used to having henchmen who are more powerful than him. That's what the Sheriff is. In fact, he was never really sure of himself. He was always a coward, wether you could kill ancient Tzimisce or not. So perhaps the issue is that he grew uncertain of his own ability to control you. That does explain why in the end you can still choose to go back to Ventrue Tower in an amazing show of loyalty. But there's still one question that lies unanswered:

Why would he wait so long to kill Nines?

Take a moment to step back and look at the Los Angeles chessboard. There are four factions vying for control: the Sabbat, the Camarilla, the Anarchs and the Kuei-Jin. Presumably, diplomacy isn't really possible for the Sabbat and they are at war with everyone by default but especially the Camarilla. Meanwhile the other three are held frozen by a tenuous balance of power.

For the Anarchs L.A. is home turf so they have some sort of advantage there. However, they are also barely held together by charismatic leadership and for that they suffered a critical defeat at the hands of the Kuei-Jin recently. Ironically, the only thing that kept the Anarchs from final death was that the Camarilla stepped in and made things more complex.

The Camarilla are possibly the most widespread faction. However, they are fractured in clans and primogens, their Prince is weak and they are all the primary targets for the Sabbat.

The Sabbat's only real interest is undermining the Camarilla and securing the sarcophagus.

Now, the Kuei-Jin are truly alien to it all. They are a minority, but they are highly organized and unified. In turn, the only thing keeping them from defeat is that the Kindred haven't yet decided they hate Kuei-Jin more than one another.

So who benefits from a rightful death of Nines' Rodrigues? LaCroix, certainly. That's where his plot with Ming comes in. The last and greatest of the local Anarch leadership is gone, the faction is broken and the Camarilla moves in to unite the Kindred. Against the Kuei-Jin. Now, who'd benefit from Nines' prolongued survival and increased tensions between kindred as the Blood Hunt lasts longer and longer? In other words, who'd have the time to actually set up the ambush against Nines from the moment you, LaCroix's eyes and hands in this town, actually finds out where he is? Ming Xiao.

As with the Mandarin so was the Werewolf another ploy to get you killed. But this time Ming's gambit accounted for your likely survival. All of a sudden her friendly approach sounds much more interesting than it actually is. You forgot that Jack is just another character, that he's fallible and that more likely to just blame LaCroix for the werewolf attack with no real evidence. You forgot that the Kuei-Jin hate all of the kindred. As far as you know Nines is really dead and LaCroix tried to kill you. And you fell for it.

You fool.

Absolutely fucking agreed. And the game foreshadows this - the girl on the beach straight up tells you the only characters whose word you can trust, both in terms of them not manipulating you, and in terms of them being right: Beckett and Mecurio. That's it. Not Jack. Not even Nines - he's a good guy, even he's enemies acknowledge he's a good guy, but he's got a revolution to run and he can't afford not to use his likeability to manipulate people (would anyone side with the anarchs if it was fucking Damsel running the show? Or Isaac? I mean, Nines is the real deal, but just to stay on the board he has to ally with a petty dictator who represents everything he opposes. In the meantime, Jack is one guy who just can't be assed lying, and he likes you - he's even in on Cabbie's plot to a certain extent and is directly trying to protect you. So why isn't he counted amongst the 'people whose word you can trust'? Because he's fallible. He doesn't underrate Lacroix (he's specifically points out that his contempt for Lacroix's pathetic 'middle management' does not mean that he thinks Lacroix is stupid), but notice while how Nines is equally worried about Ming and the Camarilla, Jack is so focussed on taking down Lacroix (who represents everything he loathes about the Camarilla - a guy who isn't that tough in a fight, is a fucking toadie, yet still somehow can smarm his way into being a dangerous opponent so good at striking alliances that even an old-timer like Jack can't handle head-on) that he doesn't even notice the Kue-jin.

And then there's Lacroix's reaction when you turn up after the blood hunt. Yes, he's shocked that you'd turn up and ask to be taken back in. But why doesn't he try to screw you again unless you turn against him, if the werewolf attack was his idea? Why doesn't he immediately go 2 on 1, him+sheriff against you, his best possible odds, if his plan required you dead? Why would he tell you straight up that he knows you've been dealing with the anarchs, if he wanted you dead rather than on his side? Because he wasn't behind the werewolf attack - he wanted Nines tried and executed for the crime he framed him for (why even bother doing that, if random assassination was on the cards - Lacroix's main strength is that he's politically intelligent to know that that shit won't fly, it will enable the anarch leadership to get the 'soft anarchs' to rage in the streets, when a frame-job would continue the current trend of the 'soft anarchs' switching sides)..

One thing I find really great about Lacroix's character, is that Jack's right - he's dangerous, but he's reached the extent of his talents. He's simply not good enough to remain prince...and his most honest moments with the PC are the times when he lets slip his genuine anxiety at realising he isn't doing a particularly good job at Prince. He clearly wants to be seen as not only powerful, but just and wise - he spares the player at the start (even though he intends to immediately dispose of him) because he really wants people to see him as a fair ruler who is capable of mercy. He stresses about the primogen in front of the player, and it's clearly getting to him that he can't seem to inspire their loyalty. And then the thing that sends him over the edge - Gary's betrayal. He's not even just angry at it, he doesn't demand Gary's head.

- [hushed voice in disbelief as he realises] "Gary...oh Gary you..." [breaks down as he starts shouting] "I WANT HIM....[visibly forcing himself to calm down and stop shouting] I want him found."

He's genuinely emotionally crushed by Gary's betrayal. It's clear that Gary (and hence the nosferatu) was part of his alliance, along with the Sheriff, that elevated him to becoming Prince - the Sheriff gives him the muscle, Gary gives him the spy network. Lacroix isn't personally sentimental about betraying friends - he's struggling with the idea that maybe he really isn't a good leader. This builds until he goes over the edge and switches from taking the Camarilla line and seeking to dispell the supersitutious rumours about the sarcophogus, to his crazy-desperate plan to diablorise it.

And that's where Strauss comes in. Strauss is competent. Not morally perfect, but definitely competent. He's a return to Camarilla 'business as usual' - i.e. don't go to outright war with the anarchs unless you have to, because war is costly and most of them will grow up and join you anyway, consult and treat the primogen with respect...after all, you've got 100s, maybe 1000s of years to climb the ladder, why be an idiot and try to get there in a few decades. If the Camarilla is right in principle, then Strauss is a good choice. If it's wrong in principle, then he's just the kind of guy who manages to keep free vampires from rising up and retaking their liberty.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Strauss is true to his word, that he leaves aside dirty details is of no real consequence.

Worth bearing in mind, Strauss burying the sarcophogus isn't just Strauss keeping his word...it's Strauss following the Camarilla party line. I.e. return to Camarilla business as usual. Not saying that's the correct interpretation - a massive feature of the game is the ambiguity of these things - but it's another viewpoint, that's as least as likely as 'Strauss is a trustworthy guy'.

 

[Zombra]

Don't be silly, you guys. The whole point of that ending was that you should have been more careful who you trusted. Changing it to "punching things saves the day" would be beyond feeble. Have MX poison your Pepsi or something if you need to justify it so bad.

There's no reason to assume that the player trusted her or hadn't planned to backstab her from the beginning anyway. In the end it's plain stupid to declare yourself True Camarilla/Anarch from the beginning and then fight both sides at their full strength rather than use the #2 power to help kill the #1 power in the city, then kill off the #2 power and declare the city to be Camarilla/Anarch.

In the conversation with the cabbie it becomes clear that choosing any of the factons is to trust them with your protection. Your character is not planning to stab Ming Xiao but rather falling for her gambit. C&C.

Even if the player wanted to backstab MX later, after passing up the choice to do so once, here's how that conversation goes:
"But I wanted to betray Ming Xiao - eventually. I wanted to bide my time until the perfect opportunity arose."
"You fucked up then. You waited too long and MX sprung her trap first. What, you thought she was going to take your shit forever?"

 

[Storyfag]

Tremere. Goratrix. Etrius. Et all. All transformed into 5th generation vampires overnight, using stolen Tzimisce blood and the unlife of a Tzimisce Methuselah. Do you think they found many teachers of Disciplines after this act? Yet they went on to found a very successful Clan.

But it took them many years to master their new vampiric powers and to develop Thaumaturgy.

It was Goratrix, who came to the idea of using the powers of the Night-folk for their gain. After gaining Tremere's approval in 1005, he captured a Tzimisce, forced him to turn his two apprentices into vampires, and then killed him. He took his apprentices back to his chantry to experiment. After a year, he presented Tremere a potion that would allegedly give them immortality. The ritual, however, did not work as he had presented it: Tremere and his seven followers did become indeed immortal, but as vampires, meaning that they lost their Avatars and the ability to work True Magick. While there was much lamentation, Tremere quickly chose to make the best of the situation and he and his cursed followers stayed in Ceoris until 1029, slowly mastering their new forms.

That's... 7 years. Between the Inner Council's self-embrace and their emerging from Ceoris. Then, a mere 100 years later in 1133, Tremere diablerises Saulot, who was torpid and possibly willing to submit to his fangs. Meanwhile Etrius and Goratrix battle and diablerise definitely unwilling Salubri Methuselahs. That is a meteoric rise to power and mastery over Cainite Disciplines.

 

[Delterius]

Fucking thread making me play VTMB again.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fucking thread making me play VTMB again.

Count yourself lucky if you just need to reinstall, Wesp needs to release a new patch everytime someone mentions Bloodlines.

 

[Wesp5]

Even if the player wanted to backstab MX later, after passing up the choice to do so once, here's how that conversation goes:
"But I wanted to betray Ming Xiao - eventually. I wanted to bide my time until the perfect opportunity arose."
"You fucked up then. You waited too long and MX sprung her trap first. What, you thought she was going to take your shit forever?"

The problem is, by the time the player joins Ming, he is strong enough so that she wouldn't be any danger to him anymore and this is why the Kuei-Jin ending sucks...

 

[Delterius]

It is true that the ending as is does not account for the PC's power. A handful of mooks can't kill you. But it is certainly not beyond the DM's capacity to upgrade the Ming ending in such a way that explains how exactly she can caught you unawares and trap you. As far as developer intente and rushed endings go, Bloodlines is no Arcanum.

 

[Lhynn]

Ming cant do shit, the fact that you actually get to face her and her entire army when shes at her strongest and win means shes not a real threat.
Also how is she suposed to catch you unaware? For that to happen the player has to let his guard down, and thats a huge leap in logic from just allying to take down a common enemy.

 

[Delterius]

A stake to the heart and a lucky crit. Also rule zero.

 

[Lhynn]

Provided a wooden stick can even penetrate the skin of the player, or that the shooter would be willing and up to the task, or that the player wouldnt see it coming.
About the only way i can see something working is by fooling the player, and thats fallout 3 level of storytelling.

 

[Delterius]

About the only way i can see something working is by fooling the player

And thats what happened

 

[Lhynn]

and thats fallout 3 level of storytelling.

 

[Delterius]

C&C: mission accomplished.

 

[baturinsky]

Ming cant do shit, the fact that you actually get to face her and her entire army when shes at her strongest and win means shes not a real threat.
Also how is she suposed to catch you unaware? For that to happen the player has to let his guard down, and thats a huge leap in logic from just allying to take down a common enemy.

It's not that hard. A mere human has caught you and would finish you if not for malfunctioning flamethrower. And MX has a lot of tricks to fool someone, such as a perfect disguise.