Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Multidirectional]

Dementation is better for non-combat characters, just like in case with domination and animalism you can pass through the whole game w/o any other combat skill. because it does not make your other combat skills stronger, as combat Malk you should go with auspex+guns or obfuscate+melee

Auspex is boring and it makes visuals shittier and I hate melee so no thanks.

 

[Average Manatee]

If you do all the side quests, (ab-)use the books properly, and stay away from the few obviously dumb investments (multiple talking skills, inspect, haggle) you'll have enough experience to max or near-max basically everything in the game anyway, like 8 in all combat stats around Hollywood. There's really no reason for any class not to demolish all combat instances. Even more so in vanilla where you can sell books and buy them back multiple times, you could probably max everything relevant.

 

[makiavelli747]

haggle is not a dumb investment. at 9-10 lvls you can make a lot of money by selling guns and other items. buying a lot of bloodpacks allows to kill any boss by disciplines only. there is also some places where you need multiple talking skills. it is boring to powerplay every time going the same old root.

 

[Prime Junta]

Inspect is also only dumb if you already know where everything is (=metagame). If you don't, it's extremely useful.

BTW killed Brother Kanker with my combat Ventrue. That Fortitude is serious business. Way easier than with my Brujah who was also melee-focused.

 

[Rahdulan]

Inspect is also only dumb if you already know where everything is (=metagame). If you don't, it's extremely useful.

Is Inspect any more useful with UP+ where things got moved around? I mean, are they hidden well enough that you might actually need Inspect?

 

[makiavelli747]

BTW killed Brother Kanker with my combat Ventrue. That Fortitude is serious business. Way easier than with my Brujah who was also melee-focused.

but why did you choose melee with Ventrue? you could have melee 6 at the start with Gangrel and fortitude. Ventrue on another hand doesn't have physical attribute bonuses, so guns are cheaper in this case, and with fortitude ranged weapons working as great as with melee anyway

Way easier than with my Brujah who was also melee-focused.

then you did something very wrong. any melee fighter should have at least one defensive stat. dodge or high endurance.
you probably didn't have either with Brujah, that's why it was a lot easier for you using fortitude.

 

[Prime Junta]

Inspect is also only dumb if you already know where everything is (=metagame). If you don't, it's extremely useful.

Is Inspect any more useful with UP+ where things got moved around? I mean, are they hidden well enough that you might actually need Inspect?

Well, I'm spotting little things I missed with my insightful Malk.

but why did you choose melee with Ventrue? you could have melee 6 at the start with Gangrel and fortitude. Ventrue on another hand doesn't have physical attribute bonuses, so guns are cheaper in this case, and with fortitude ranged weapons working as great as with melee anyway

Because I've never played a Ventrue, but have completed the game with a Gangrel, and Presence, being relatively short-range, works great with melee.

 

[makiavelli747]

Is Inspect any more useful with UP+

you need investigation 3 in Knox's quest

and Presence, being relatively short-range, works great with melee

did you try braddock in that fight with nosferatu?

 

[Average Manatee]

haggle is not a dumb investment. at 9-10 lvls you can make a lot of money by selling guns and other items. buying a lot of bloodpacks allows to kill any boss by disciplines only. there is also some places where you need multiple talking skills. it is boring to powerplay every time going the same old root.

Yes it's dumb, you have shit tons of money just by finishing quests. Even if you are guzzling bloodpacks constantly rather than simply feeding for free, you'll have enough money to buy everything relevant.

AFAIK there's no quests that require more than just a high persuasion. Intimidate sometimes gives you extra money (also sometimes screws you and fails) while seduction sometimes lets you feed in public.

Inspect is also only dumb if you already know where everything is (=metagame). If you don't, it's extremely useful.

Or just look around. But in any case you already have a decent amount of inspect just from the 3-4 perception you'll have since its used for guns. There's never a good reason to straight up buy investigation.

FWIW this is my stat block right before the Tzimisce at King's Way.

 

[makiavelli747]

Even if you are guzzling bloodpacks constantly rather than simply feeding for free, you'll have enough money to buy everything relevant.

you can't feed when fighting Sheriff, you probably never tried to complete the game with Ventrue's Dominate only, for example

there's no quests that require more than just a high persuasion.

there is, at Giovanny mansion, in Copper's dialogue
and by the way, when you pump research very high you'll get intimidation and persuasion levels anyway, so a build with multiple speech skills is not a dumb waste for sure

 

[Average Manatee]

Even if you are guzzling bloodpacks constantly rather than simply feeding for free, you'll have enough money to buy everything relevant.

you can't feed when fighting Sheriff,

And you'll have more than enough free bloodpacks stored up for these few occasions.

you probably never tried to complete the game with Ventrue's Dominate only, for example

Why would you intentionally gimp yourself? It's not like VTM:B has some great combat system that is worth replaying to experience a different side of.

there's no quests that require more than just a high persuasion.

there is, at Giovanny mansion, in Copper's dialogue

I'm only talking about actual quests that require stats other than high persuasion, and I'm ignoring stuff that requires very low amounts of intimidate or seduction that you'll effectively have for free since they are part of getting other stats.

 

[makiavelli747]

Why would you intentionally gimp yourself? It's not like VTM:B has some great combat system that is worth replaying to experience a different side of.

its not about combat system, but more like.. well, as a test of rpg system. to see if a build like that can survive
a lot of people were complaining that talkie chars will get fucked in a late game, but running around and killing 2-3 vampires by pressing one button while using bloodpacks as ammo... its not that hard
but at the same time its not hard to complete Bloodlines w/o spending even a single skill point

I'm only talking about actual quests that require stats other than high persuasion

then why you need persuasion in a 1st place? you still can complete 95% of quests w/o any social skill.
and by the way, intimidation doesn't work in few situations, yes, but its also cheaper

 

[Makabb]

So VTM is the citizen kane of rpgs ?

 

[Multidirectional]

I like to mix Haggle with Persuasion. It's not just about selling things, there are often opportunities to increase your rewards from quests, and you can occasionally milk Lacroix for nice sums of money which is always fun. I don't think I ever raised it to higher than 7 or 8. Having loads of money to keep buying blood bags makes any troublesome combat areas a breeze. I like metagaming the shit out of this game.

 

[Goral]

If you do all the side quests, (ab-)use the books properly, and stay away from the few obviously dumb investments (multiple talking skills, inspect, haggle) you'll have enough experience to max or near-max basically everything in the game anyway, like 8 in all combat stats around Hollywood. There's really no reason for any class not to demolish all combat instances. Even more so in vanilla where you can sell books and buy them back multiple times, you could probably max everything relevant.

You might as well cheat in that case and give yourself 100 skill points or something. I'm glad that Wesp's patch fixed this book abuse.

Why would you intentionally gimp yourself? It's not like VTM:B has some great combat system that is worth replaying to experience a different side of.

I'm with makiavelli747 on this. Playing overpowered character may be fun but only in a short run. Playing different clans without abusing the system forces the player to be a bit more creative and to use tactics and skills he wouldn't use otherwise. And every clan offers different optimal path, so there is a different experience during fights that's worth replaying IMO. That's assuming you would want to replay the game of course.

 

[makiavelli747]

so there is a different experience during fights that's worth replaying IMO

definitely. I remember fight with Andrew in his mansion, when he summoned those ugly creatures. As a Ventrue, I made all of them fight on my side and at the end he was killed by his own minions.

 

[Average Manatee]

If you do all the side quests, (ab-)use the books properly, and stay away from the few obviously dumb investments (multiple talking skills, inspect, haggle) you'll have enough experience to max or near-max basically everything in the game anyway, like 8 in all combat stats around Hollywood. There's really no reason for any class not to demolish all combat instances. Even more so in vanilla where you can sell books and buy them back multiple times, you could probably max everything relevant.

You might as well cheat in that case and give yourself 100 skill points or something. I'm glad that Wesp's patch fixed this book abuse.

I'm not abusing the books in terms of multiple uses, only using them at the optimal point. I agree it was stupid.

Why would you intentionally gimp yourself? It's not like VTM:B has some great combat system that is worth replaying to experience a different side of.

I'm with makiavelli747 on this. Playing overpowered character may be fun but only in a short run. Playing different clans without abusing the system forces the player to be a bit more creative and to use tactics and skills he wouldn't use otherwise. And every clan offers different optimal path, so there is a different experience during fights that's worth replaying IMO. That's assuming you would want to replay the game of course.

It's hardly abusing the system to raise skills optimally and ignore ones that are mostly useless

 

[Prime Junta]

Played a bit further with my ninja Malk.

The Bishop Vick fight is fucking frustrating. Obfuscate is useless since the devs in their wisdom don't let me stealth kill him, and I'm not doing a whole lot of damage even with the shotgun. It is beatable but not fun.

Melee Ventrue went through it like a wrecking ball. Tremere had no trouble either.

 

[makiavelli747]

FWIW this is my stat block right before the Tzimisce at King's Way.

that is a weak build actually, you were calling multiple talking skills dumb, but having multiple combat skills are even worse
if bloodlines were harder game with higher skillchecks and fewer skillpoints, your build would be fucked just like "jack of all trades" are in AoD. there is a lot of places in a game where you can compensate low hacking skill by persuasion or seduction, low lockpicking by high sneaking, etc. every skill you invest in should strengthen those you already have, thus its always better to specialize.

at Kings Way player should have 1 discipline at lvl 4 and 3 main skills at lvl 8. that is most optimal way. and if you want to prove that some skills are worst than others, you have to prove it by exact numbers. every skill could be convert into money and exp. points, because at the end that is everything that have value, so its easy to compare if you know the game well.
for example bloodpacks locked behind the closed door in Grouts mansion. you can get them by unlocking the door with high lockpicking, or you can sneak into other room filled with enemies to get the key, or you can kill 'em all and take the key. you'll not get more for having high lockpicks, sneak and combat skills all at the same time. and at the end the prize is just a certain amount of money which you could get by investing into haggle. and don't give me that bullshit like "money doesn't matter", money is unlimited health, ammo and damage your char can deal.

The Bishop Vick fight is fucking frustrating. Obfuscate is useless since the devs in their wisdom don't let me stealth kill him, and I'm not doing a whole lot of damage even with the shotgun.

you could kill him with obfuscate very easy if you have high melee and high obfuscate.
I've killed Sheriff by using obfuscate w/o taking a single hit... well, maybe one or two. simply backstab him, devs just does not allow to "break his neck"(otherwise that would be a bad joke), but you can still hide and you receive big damage bonus from obfuscate.

 

[Prime Junta]

I've killed Sheriff by using obfuscate w/o taking a single hit... well, maybe one or two. simply backstab him, devs just does not allow to "break his neck"(otherwise that would be a bad joke), but you can still hide and you receive big damage bonus from obfuscate.

Thing is, I don't. I haven't put a single point in strength or melee. Going with stealth + firearms only, with stealth first. This is one quest where that just doesn't work.

Not saying this is bad, mind. Just noting the situation. If I had waited until I had a few more points in firearms, it would certainly have been much easier.

 

[makiavelli747]

Going with stealth + firearms only, with stealth first. This is one quest where that just doesn't work.

firearms+stealth is a bad combination, guns are noisy! and they don't stack. that's why I said guns+auspex is better when playing Malk
you can still compensate everything with money, or just ignore some quests. Vick is very though compared to a lot of other encounters by this time. he is probably at Hollywood combat lvl

 

[Average Manatee]

FWIW this is my stat block right before the Tzimisce at King's Way.

that is a weak build actually, you were calling multiple talking skills dumb, but having multiple combat skills are even worse
if bloodlines were harder game with higher skillchecks and fewer skillpoints, your build would be fucked just like "jack of all trades" are in AoD. there is a lot of places in a game where you can compensate low hacking skill by persuasion or seduction, low lockpicking by high sneaking, etc. every skill you invest in should strengthen those you already have, thus its always better to specialize.

at Kings Way player should have 1 discipline at lvl 4 and 3 main skills at lvl 8. that is most optimal way. and if you want to prove that some skills are worst than others, you have to prove it by exact numbers. every skill could be convert into money and exp. points, because at the end that is everything that have value, so its easy to compare if you know the game well.

Can't tell if you are retarded or not.

I specifically said that this was so that you could do whatever you wanted and use whatever you wanted. Therefore multiple combat skills so you can have variety.

Bloodbuff/Auspex takes you to 9 in all combat skills, virtually maxed and I'm only in the 3rd hub.

Persuasion is high enough to beat every check so far AFAIK. 8 persuasion will be enough to beat most everything relevant, 9 is a little overboard and not needed. Obviously I'll probaby get both soon just because you run out of stuff to buy.

Lockpicking is 10 with bloodbuff.

Frankly the disciplines for this clan simply aren't needed at high levels. If they were it wouldn't subtract much from the rest.

I'm literally specialized enough to do everything relevant in the game. You can completely be a jack of all trades master of all. No shit if bloodlines had less XP* and harder skill checks then the build wouldn't work. The point is that it doesn't, so you can do everything at once in the game if you know how to build a character.

*Actually its the books and free stats that are the real problem, half of the stats you get are 'for free', and its a bad idea to specialize early since you are throwing away stat points that you would get for free if you waited.

for example bloodpacks locked behind the closed door in Grouts mansion. you can get them by unlocking the door with high lockpicking, or you can sneak into other room filled with enemies to get the key, or you can kill 'em all and take the key. you'll not get more for having high lockpicks, sneak and combat skills all at the same time. and at the end the prize is just a certain amount of money which you could get by investing into haggle. and don't give me that bullshit like "money doesn't matter", money is unlimited health, ammo and damage your char can deal.

Money doesn't fucking matter. I have full ammo in everything, every gun available, 3k cash in the wallet, and I haven't needed a single blood pack the whole game. I haven't even used the artifact yet that stores blood points. I'll probably need a few eventually, but I doubt I'll ever actually need to buy any, you find enough.

 

[makiavelli747]

Money doesn't fucking matter. I have full ammo in everything, every gun available, 3k cash in the wallet, and I haven't needed a single blood pack the whole game. I haven't even used the artifact yet that stores blood points.

if i make unarmed deathmachine i wouldn't need even to buy guns, of course. but if I make a build like that and make it work, it doesn't mean everything else is useless. the point is you can make "haggle" builds work too, and you can't prove that your build on the screen is better just because its viable

I'm literally specialized enough to do everything relevant in the game.

except disciplines

I actually have a save right now with melee build before Chinatown, with 2500-3000 dollars and 1 lvl of haggle

 

[Average Manatee]

Money doesn't fucking matter. I have full ammo in everything, every gun available, 3k cash in the wallet, and I haven't needed a single blood pack the whole game. I haven't even used the artifact yet that stores blood points.

if i make unarmed deathmachine i wouldn't need even to buy guns, of course. but if I make a build like that and make it work, it doesn't mean everything else is useless. the point is you can make "haggle" builds work too, and you can't prove that your build on the screen is better just because its viable

Making a "haggle" build work doesn't make haggle a useful skill. And yes, I can prove that a build that accomplishes all quests, can hack everything, lockpick everything, and fight in any available fashion is better than a build that... gets slightly more useless money. It's kind of self evident.

I'm literally specialized enough to do everything relevant in the game.

except disciplines

Kind of irrelevant if the disciplines aren't useful, isn't it?

 

[Delterius]

Speaking of that. Is Thaumaturgy as situational as it seems? Seems like the only mainstay spell is Blood Shield with everything else growing more and more useless over time.