Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Sizzle]

I'd put all of the vamps we meet (except Taxi Driver and just possibly Strauss who miiiight be 8th-gen, certainly not 7th or older given his position in the Pyramid) at 9th gen or below. 8th-gen are supposed to usually date from the 14th century or so, and 7th-gen are just about one step down from methuselahs -- they're the oldest vampires still (mostly) active, with power far greater than anyone we meet in Bloodlines (again, other than possibly Taxi Driver).

I think Jack is the only one where the generation is known, and he's 10th-gen... and pretty senior among the Anarchs.

I.e., either you're a much younger-gen vampire with your generation lowered through some unknown means (thaumaturgy? I don't think you can diablerise someone without knowing), or you're a genuine 8th-gen, in which case your ostensible sire can't be your real one, as s/he would certainly have been way too powerful (not to mention cunning) to be nabbed and executed by LaCroix. (Also, in the unlikely event that such a one had fallen under LaCroix's power, he would certainly have diablerised him. He's wiling to risk that with an antediluvian, which is just incredibly foolhardy and will most likely result in the elder blood overcoming his and the antediluvian getting a second lease at unlife in his body.)

I can't see any other options which would fit the lore.

I remember reading somewhere that Caine can lower a vampire's generation at will - he's absurdly powerful - I always figured that was what's going on with the PC's power levels.

 

[baturinsky]

Most important question is, what was the point of all that? If someone low-gen just wanted LaCroix and Ming-Xao dead, he could just go and kill them.

 

[Prime Junta]

Most important question is, what was the point of all that? If someone low-gen just wanted LaCroix and Ming-Xao dead, he could just go and kill them.

Far be it from us to fathom the mysteries of motivations of low-generation vampires. That shit be weird man.

 

[laclongquan]

I dunno, watching shits unfold with a glass of vitae on hand can be pretty you know~ Kinda like playing games, with all factors set up by own hands...
..
.
Oh wait~

 

[Sizzle]

Most important question is, what was the point of all that? If someone low-gen just wanted LaCroix and Ming-Xao dead, he could just go and kill them.

Vampires, especially ancient ones, don't work like that, they usually prefer to use (oblivious) pawns.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I just finished Ocean House and died in boiler room. Overall finishing it 3rd or 4th time is rather boring.

Could anyone explain to me why main hero is not angry on Lacroix or whole society for killing his/her boy/girlfried in the begining? I mean she/he is transforming us into vampire, violating the masquarade, risking a lot - and why? Only two reasons on my mind are:

1. She/He is actually part of conspiracy, and turns us into a vampire due to someone's request - and his/her death is unexpected for him.her (Lacroix killing his puppet maybe?)
2. There is some huge love affair and he/she is our lover and all that shit from Iced Earth writing - if that's so then why we don;t give a shit after he/she being killed? I mean Lacroix is saying that we should do something for him in Santa Monica, and we should obey the vampiric law and we are totally submissive.

Maybe I've missed something...

You're a clueless clubber who just witnesses a supernatural mob boss executing someone (who then exploded into ash), obeying them and not asking too many questions is a wise decision.

It clashes with the way Dominate works, if you're so low gen you'd be dominating vampire NPCs left and right as a Ventrue right off the bat and Prince wouldn't be able to use the same trick to force you to do errands for him.

Maybe Troika just weren't so anal about the relation between blood pool and generation and thought that fewer blood points would be too restricting for the player in the actual gameplay. It could be you're 10th or 11th gen regardless, Caine lowers it at some points and gives you a boost in power, you kick everyone's ass.

Looks like they just took the "you can dominate weaker dudes" interpretation and applied it literally - you can't dominate strong dudes when you're a noob, but later on strong dudes can't dominate you because you're strongerer.

 

[Prime Junta]

Looks like they just took the "you can dominate weaker dudes" interpretation and applied it literally - you can't dominate strong dudes when you're a noob, but later on strong dudes can't dominate you because you're strongerer.

Yeah it COULD be just a ... mistake. Chalking it off as one is way less fun than thinking up lore-compliant in-world explanations though.

Also, it's very clear from the whole thing that the authors were intimately familiar with the source materials. I find it unlikely that they'd have made a mistake that fundamental to the way the world works.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't think of it as a mistake, but an intentional bending of the rules to fit their story. You need a reason to explain how you defeat Lacroix when he can literally just tell you to do stuff for him, and "you're more badass than him now" is the least contrived one even if it contradicts the p&p rules.

(though I find the idea of Caine sneaking into your bedroom at night and spitting in your mouth very amusing)

 

[Tacgnol]

I tend to go with the theory that Caine messed with your generation. It always made the fact you got so strong in such a short period of time more plausible.

Actually a good way of lore explaining the RPG power growth problem.

 

[Roguey]

Reminder that Bloodlines's plot requires you to break the masquerade (shooting up that club with a follow-up news report from Brian who describes your supernatural abilities) but without taking a masquerade penalty since there's no way to avoid it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Reminder that Bloodlines's plot requires you to break the masquerade (shooting up that club with a follow-up news report from Brian who describes your supernatural abilities) but without taking a masquerade penalty since there's no way to avoid it.

Must've missed that, but then I didn't watch much TV. Which club?

 

[baturinsky]

Reminder that Bloodlines's plot requires you to break the masquerade (shooting up that club with a follow-up news report from Brian who describes your supernatural abilities) but without taking a masquerade penalty since there's no way to avoid it.

I don't remember that part either. Shooting is not a Masquerade violation. And if you are, say, Malkavian, you have no obviously supernatural abilities.

 

[pippin]

Is that the mission in Hollywood where you have to rescue the actor? Or the one in Downtown where you have to confront the mafia guy?
I think you can kill the mafia guy or working a deal with him. But you don't *have* to fight to rescue the actor.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Don't really need a way of suppressing earlier-gen power levels. You're a neophyte that has massively powerful blood, not a 700 year old vampire with full knowledge of his abilities. The Santa Monica chapter takes place on your very 1st night - when you try to dominate Therese/Jeanette, you've been a vampire for 2-3 hours. Massive raw power, but no idea how to use it, or that it even exists. Over the next couple of nights, you blow up a Sabbat warehouse singlehandedly (killing at least 2-3 young Sabbat) and exterminate an entire blood cult. A week later, you're slaying powerful local vamps left and right, kill every last motherfucking member of the Hunter expedition that has even the most powerful LA vamps terrified (including the guy who LaCroix has been dodging for decades), exterminate the entire LA chapter of the Sabbat, leadership and all, kill the most powerful fighter in LA (the Sheriff), and stone-cold resist a Ventrue Prince's attempt at domination.

And it's not like everyone else is reacting like he's some particularly talented neophyte. They start off that way, congratulating him on his amazing work with the Sabbat warehouse, but after only a few weeks of his unlife, every major player is both terrified (blood hunt for a fucking neophyte??) and desperate to have him on their side. I think that's a quick enough learning curve that you can explain his early weakness (which isn't all that weak, given that he wasn't expected to survive the warehouse) as the time it takes for him to learn to use his power. Even by the end of the game's (short in in-game-time) duration, there's no sign that he's reached his full potential and is back to ordinary 'wait a few decades' progression. Who knows what he'll be 6 months down the track?

 

[WhiteGuts]

Whoever set things in motion might not find any interest/lulz in letting the CHARNAME grow in power. Dying would be a very fitting end for him/her once they outlived their usefulness in that world.

 

[pippin]

That's why you go undercover in the taxi business.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, I think it's intentional on Troika's part. Many vampires comment on how powerful you've become in such a short time (Andrei, LaCroix, Beckett, I think Ming and Strauss also comment on that), so I'm pretty sure it's not a mistake. You being weaker at first is very logical, you've literally been a vampire for a few hours so you wouldn't know how to use your powers, but you learn very quickly. The only issue I see is your sire, I doubt a 7 gen vampire will allow him/herself to be captured and executed by LaCroix. I don't like the theory about Caine lowering your gen because you have all your blood points from the very beginning. If you somehow gained more blood points as time went on, then sure. I also have a hunch that they intended for the story to go further than the sarcophagus, with you finding out why you are so powerful and etc, but they didn't have the time/money. If I had written it I would've completed the sarcophagus questline much quicker (with all the ramifications of that, including your death if you choose to open it with LaCroix; a lot of characters, and Rosa especially, give you direct instructions not to open it, so it will be your fault) and concentrated on the characters more, including the one you play.

EDIT: Wow, I just saw Bloodlines at GOG!

 

[WhiteGuts]

The more I think about it, the more I prefer to imagine the CHARNAME dying after his wild ride with Cabbie.

 

[pippin]

I wonder if you could interpret them telling you how strong you have become so you start believing that and try to fight someone way over your league so you kill yourself instead of having any of the big league players bothering to do that. I still believe the game's plot is just Caine trying to get rid of annoying assholes, because it's quite obvious that LaCroix is just a weakling, Grout is... Grout and even Alexei is something more of a nuisance than anything else. Ming Xiao is practically alone where she is, the Anarchs are noisy kids, etc. Nobody seems to have any sort of special relevance to anything, and everyone behaves like a retard. And you are just a tool, a blue collar worker, so to speak. But at the same time I like this, I like the mystery and how I can interpret different meanings of the game's plot. I'd say this wasn't one of the game's aspects that got rushed in any way.

 

[WhiteGuts]

The real question is : why would Caine even *care* about L.A ?

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, I think Caine is just observing, there is no reason for him to get involved in this specific scenario. He would know that there is no Antediluvian in the sarcophagus, so there is no connection with Gehenna either.

 

[Prime Junta]

I also have a hunch that they intended for the story to go further than the sarcophagus, with you finding out why you are so powerful and etc, but they didn't have the time/money. If I had written it I would've completed the sarcophagus questline much quicker (with all the ramifications of that, including your death if you choose to open it with LaCroix; a lot of characters, and Rosa especially, give you direct instructions not to open it, so it will be your fault) and concentrated on the characters more, including the one you play.

I'm glad they didn't. The mystery is much more interesting.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm glad they didn't. The mystery is much more interesting.

You might be right, so you just wouldn't find out why you are so powerful, but the character-focused narrative would remain. They already made the mystery into quite a large plot point, so the seeds are already planted. Though there are not a whole lot of explanations either way - your sire was either a very low gen vamp or Caine was manipulating your blood. The Caine thing doesn't make sense on a lot of points, so pretty much low gen sire. A good writer knows what to reveal and what not to reveal and not revealing this particular mystery is a good move.

 

[pippin]

The real question is : why would Caine even *care* about L.A ?

In my opinion, simply because it's his property. There's a silent conflict between all the factions in LA and it could prove to be a problem for the Masquerade. So just to be sure, Caine just manipulated you to do some cleaning work.

 

[Lacrymas]

He could've done it himself by simply willing it and nobody would know. Manipulating events to a specific goal isn't something Caine (or anyone else with such power) would do, if he pushes he will push with curiosity in mind, i.e. he wants to know what would happen.