Raider Sadist Armor? Seriously?

[Naked Ninja]

And why is choosing where to spend scarce resources when repairing not a fun choice?

Because repairing isn't exciting in the first place? Even VD had to go into describing a mod system just to make it sound like it would be cool. Simply repairing a weapon to basic functionality is hardly interesting.

Well, this is the first repair system I've ever seen that doesn't require some "repair" resource to use...

Except it does. Other, similar items. I repair my broken rifle with bits from another rifle. The other rifle is the repair resource aka scavenged parts.

Remember that time you found a maintenance tool so you could finally repair that gun that had been broken for the last fifteen minutes?

And were you happy because you'd been anticipating playing the repair mini-game again? Or because your weapon was about to work again? Think about it.

 

[Sodomy]

Because repairing isn't exciting in the first place? Even VD had to go into describing a mod system just to make it sound like it would be cool. Simply repairing a weapon to basic functionality is hardly interesting.

I disagree. See below.

Except it does. Other, similar items. I repair my broken rifle with bits from another rifle. The other rifle is the repair resource aka scavenged parts.

Except the "resource" isn't a specific "repair" resource like the maintenance tools in SS2, the repair hammers in TES, the toolkits in JA2, etc.

And were you happy because you'd been anticipating playing the repair mini-game again? Or because your weapon was about to work again? Think about it.

And how does this make repair not exciting? "Hey, my favorite weapon finally works again!" sounds pretty damn exciting to me. You've just proven my point for me- if it's treated as an actual gameplay mechanic, not just some minor nuisance, degradation and repair mechanics can be just as exciting as creation mechanics. Because, hey, we all like it when our gun works.

 

[toroid]

stack of broken items -> repaired item = acceptable

What about the weight associated with carrying all those broken items?

Let's say I want to be able to repair some items at some point in the near future. That apparently means I need to carry stacks of similar items with me in anticipation of the repairs. Wouldn't this get insanely heavy?

but the extra mouse clicks

Parts could be scavenged from the broken items IN PLACE OF picking up the entire item. In the case of an unfixable item breaking while in your possession, simply select "salvage parts" instead of "drop". Hell, the parts could explode directly into your inventory upon weapon failure, removing all tedium and choice.

Who else is willing to bet that this is just a result of lazy (or unaffordable) design?

 

[Naked Ninja]

I disagree. See below.

I disagree with your disagreeing. See below.

Except the "resource" isn't a specific "repair" resource like the maintenance tools in SS2, the repair hammers in TES, the toolkits in JA2, etc.

... so what? So the fact that a specific, similar item is used instead of a generic repair item, which is actually less abstract overall, makes it...what? Bad? Because I use rifle bits to repair rifle bits instead of my helmet? Remind me again, why is that cooler?

And how does this make repair not exciting? "Hey, my favorite weapon finally works again!" sounds pretty damn exciting to me.

And you won't get that feeling in F3 because...?

To quote some random internet preview thing google found for me:

Scavenging is a big theme of the game too. Players can find various items pretty much everywhere they look (including on dead bodies), and they can use them to repair existing items (though they must be of a similar item type to do so). The more beat up something is, the lower your repair skill needs to be to get it fixed. But to get an item in even working better shape, you'll need higher repair skills as part of your attribute set. The better shape something is in, the more damage it does and the less likely it is to jam or stop working if it's a firearm.

So this is terrible...why again?

You've just proven my point for me

No, I've proven you like having a fixed gun, not the actual gui interaction steps needed to fix that gun.

 

[Elwro]

In unrelated news:

http://www.aeropause.com/2008/08/pax-08 ... pressions/

The level that they had available was basically just the area outside Vault 101, and as you step out into the wasteland the landscape looks pretty good. Bleak… desolate… And you can even see the shelled out remains of the U.S. Capitol building off in the distance. Since there were no real objectives in this demo beyond “go see what you can find” I headed off down an old abandoned highway. As I sauntered into the midst of some shelled out buildings the game chimed “You’ve discovered Springvale!” Huh. Cool.

:shock:

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Naked Ninja is right.

*Warning!*Sarcasm!

 

[Sodomy]

I disagree with your disagreeing. See below.

I disagree with your disagreeing of my disagreeing. See below.

... so what? So the fact that a specific, similar item is used instead of a generic repair item, which is actually less abstract overall, makes it...what? Bad? Because I use rifle bits to repair rifle bits instead of my helmet? Remind me again, why is that cooler?

And what makes you think that no two items in the universe use the same parts?

And you won't get that feeling in F3 because...?

Did I claim that? My argument is that the "yay, my gun works!" feeling is just as powerful of a motivator as "hey, I've made new shit!", and therefore, repair should be viewed as a mechanic on the same level as crafting, and therefore, should be able to enjoy the complexity of mechanics associated with crafting.

No, I've proven you like having a fixed gun, not the actual gui interaction steps needed to fix that gun.

See above.

 

[Naked Ninja]

And what makes you think that no two items in the universe use the same parts?

So do you think a helmet and a sniper rifle share more or less parts in common?

Did I claim that? My argument is that the "yay, my gun works!" feeling is just as powerful of a motivator as "hey, I've made new shit!", and therefore, repair should be viewed as a mechanic on the same level as crafting, and therefore, should be able to enjoy the complexity of mechanics associated with crafting.

False conclusion, as you seem to assume that more complexity in the repairing would enhance the feeling of "yay, my gun works!". Prove it.

 

[Alex]

However, there is a difference between taking items apart and using best parts, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly style, and stacking items.

You mean taking bits from the various items and combining them into one working item? Or are you implying that the gui interface mechanic ( ie adding one slot to the other in a kind of stack) is representative of what the guy is doing in real life? Do I get to see a little animation of him building a small stack of guns and then POOF! new shiny gun?

Come now. I don't care how it feels in the interface, I can grasp that it means I'm combining parts in the same way that dragging a weapon from my pack to my paper doll is an abstract representation of my char fiddling around in his pack and whipping out a gun/sword/attack badger.

It's not a different mechanic, it's an abstraction. And a perfectly acceptable one.

I think that the point here is not simply a gui mechanic. If items are made of pieces that can be taken apart, and if some items use the same pieces as others, the system becomes more complex. Now you could use 3 pistols to repair a rifle, if they share parts.

Now, I think that the system proposed by bethesda for guns isn't bad. It gives an option to bartering loot. It allows characters who can carry less to make use of loot that they would otherwise miss. It is simple enough mechanic, not changing the game much by itself but changing the way it is played by its consequences. The only problem I can see is that if it is the main application of one of the skills (I don't know how the skill list for fallout 3 looks like), that skill probably won't be very useful.

One bigger problem, however, is that this system doesn't look very good for some items. Armor can be tricky, specially the helmet example. I mean, a simple helmet would be a hard shell to deflect attacks, and some thing to keep it on your head. How can you combine two shells into one that is better than the previous?

Even if you had tools for gluing them somehow, it would still leave them weaker than a brand new one. It doesn't make much sense for helmets and it still sounds fishy for most armors. (I know it would probably mean doing patchwork with the armor, but again, we have the problem where a patchworked armor can be as good as a brand new one.

Now, I know that his problem can be easily circumvented, and probably is only a minor aspect of the game. However, I think that more attention here could help immersion (which is a big aim of this game, apparently). Another issue I have with it is that a better system could take its place (see below).

The actual mechanics?

Oh please. Repair mechanics? Clicking is a gameplay mechanic now? In all the polls on repairing conducted, people, even here, mostly dislike it as a tedious chore. But hey, detailing it down to the finest levels adds to the fun! No. It's just going to make it more fiddly and annoying for many.

Abstract it out, let your repair skill determine which items you can repair with a behind the scenes check. Most people aren't actually looking for a "workbench-simulator minigame" where you have to keep track of nails and springs collected.

First, I think that a fallout game could have a lot of use for some repairing mechanics. In a post apocalyptic scenario, it is pretty common to have limited resources. In part, it sets the mood. Having to recycle what you have while your items slowly become more useless helps to set that starved feel that, I think, is part of what makes a proper post apocalyptic setting.

Therefore. a more complex repairing system might help the game shine in this area. Of the top of my head, a possible system might have pieces, like was previously suggested. The game might "starve" the player on these pieces, making him use substitutions for the proper pieces. The game might, then, make adjustments to how the item works according to the substitutions and how new the pieces are. By making these adjustments relevant, the repairs system would become an important part of the game.

To imagine...

The foundation of Bethesda design.

A bit much, perhaps? It's alright for some mechanics to be abstracted out man. ALL games have abstractions. This isn't always a crime against humanity.

I think Bethesda (today's Bethesda) has a certain design philosophy of trying to make their games simple, rules wise. The appropriate mechanics can help create in a game, if they mirror some of the important elements of the game world. Bethesda, however, seem to avoid more complex game mechanics, trying to create immersion through other means.

While I don't think that this philosophy is automatically wrong, I have three issues with Bethesda adopting it. First, I think they adopt out of fear that their audience will dislike more complex rules. I have this opinion that a game designer should always design a game the way he thinks best.

Sure, other people can give opinions and ideas, helping the designer see things he couldn't see before. And of course, when a game is done as a collaborative work, some kind of compromise must be found. But I think that if a designer is forced to accept a decision, he will become less attached to his game, and the quality will probably suffer.

The second issue I have with this is that I think a new fallout should remain close to the design decisions that were used in the previous ones. I think it is quite obvious that this isn't the case, even if the normal philosophy that Bethesda uses is changed somewhat for this new title.

The last issue that I have with this is that, while simpler games aren't inherently better or worse than more complex ones, It seems that they are better suited for more focused gameplay. Take Oblivion for instance. It follows the afore mentioned philosophy. It also tries to allow for a person to be "anything they want", joining different guilds and training different skills.

If instead of trying to cover such a broad range, it focused on something specific (say, being a knight with a few orders you could join), the game might be able to put more interesting gameplay while not becoming significantly more complex.

How about a combat system where you click on enemies and they die?

How about a banana fudge milkshake?
(snip ...)

May I come too?

 

[Naked Ninja]

Yes, of course you could have such a system Alex. Perhaps it would be fun, perhaps it would be annoying. Surely the same thing applies to medieval RPGs? How do you repair an item to full functionality with a hammer in the middle of the wilderness? Would it add to immersion if you were forced to trek back to the smith each time? I think PA games should have scarce resources but too much micromanagement of parts will get on my nerves after awhile.

As far as I'm concerned this is good enough, endlessly fiddling about with armor patches and whatnot isn't going to add desperation, it will add tedium. After a while you will long for the "ffs just patch my armor automatically as best you can with the parts I have" button.

You guys have yet to convince me this is a "dumbing down" of anything, since it is as complex as any other repair system I've seen in an RPG. Certainly not cause to keep going "Look, bethesda is dumbing down RPGs again!"

May I come too?

You may.

 

[Sodomy]

So do you think a helmet and a sniper rifle share more or less parts in common?

Is it that hard to believe that a pistol and a sniper rifle share a few springs? Or that there's some energy amplifier that's shared between a plasma rifle, a gattling laser, and a set of power armor?

False conclusion, as you seem to assume that more complexity in the repairing would enhance the feeling of "yay, my gun works!". Prove it.

Hell, I'll just quote you:

With [repairing] you're choosing where to spend your scarce resources, it's more of a fun choice.

Your argument has hinged on repair being a second-class system that doesn't deserve the complexity of forge, because it can't generate the excitement of having new shit. I've disproven that argument. Now, unless you want to go back to the "extra interface steps are always bad" argument which I shot down several posts ago, it looks like you've lost.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Is it that hard to believe that a pistol and a sniper rifle share a few springs? Or that there's some energy amplifier that's shared between a plasma rifle, a gattling laser, and a set of power armor?

No, it isn't. Is it that hard to imagine that the energy amplifier might not be the same type or voltage or whatever?

Hell, I'll just quote you:

With [repairing] you're choosing where to spend your scarce resources, it's more of a fun choice.

That's nice. Except with crafting you are gaining something, not just recovering functionality you used to have anyway. Choosing which of my 5 no longer working guns to repair with my recovered doo-dad doesn't sound like an amazingly exciting "choice". In fact it isn't even a choice, like healing crippled limbs isn't really a choice. You're just going to choose whichever one seems the most valuable.

Lost? I won when you couldn't provide an example of a game with a more complex repair mechanic than "use your repair doo-dad on your item, hooray, choices with consequences!!!"

 

[Darth Roxor]

Naked Ninja is right.

*Warning!*Sarcasm!

I'm afraid you've got a false positive out there.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

This system is pretty stupid, but not at first glance. When yo first see it, it seems like a pretty intuitive idea; you find a rifle, use it a lot, it degrades, and when you find another one you put the best parts of each them together. Pretty good idea, right? It's just when you look at it a little closer it becomes kind of silly.

-It puts more emphasis on items, and less on the repair skill. Even if you're a repair expert, you need duplicates of items to do anything, which kind of defeats the whole flavor of MacGyvering things to work in a post-apoc wasteland. Feels too clean.

-It could get goofy with rarer weapons, like big guns, energy weapons, the fatman, etc. What do I do if I want to repair my plasma rifle? Do I have to grind respawning Enclave members to get one? It's not going to be fun to have to shelve my plasma rifle in the middle of an assault because they decided to go this route rather than a universal repair kit one.

-Favors combat heavy characters too much. People who kill lots of stuff will be overflowing with abilities to repair, even if their skill is low, and who can possibly make up for the lack of skill by the amount of items they have. Whereas a non-combat character without repair is totally hosed as they will have few opportunities to repair and with their repairs not doing much. Kind of boneheaded balance, ya know?

They didn't really think this one through too much, it seems. Here's one place where Oblivion style "repair hammers" would actually be better, just more durable/useful.

 

[Argosy]

I think a system that uses a universal, or semi-universal 'junk' item for repair could work. In a post-apocalyptic world, there's likely to be quite a few broken and discarded items lying around, because not everyone can fix broken flaming swords and nuclear catapults. That's a pretty specialized skill. Ergo, one could collect these piles of junk and use them, along with one's repair skill ( and using other relevant skills such as small weapons, in conjunction with or as an alternative) to to fix one's weapons or to patch holes in armor.

Such junk could be of multiple types(Energy weapon, small guns, etc...), as parts off of a laser rifle aren't likely to be so useful when repairing a luger.

As a side note, what kind of fucking hat do these people wear that has interchangeable parts?

 

[Mamon]

Blowing up Megaton doesn`t make much sense. If he is looking for his father why would he blow the town? How does he know that his dad is not there?

 

[Sodomy]

No, it isn't. Is it that hard to imagine that the energy amplifier might not be the same type or voltage or whatever?

Yeah, it is actually- most things are built using standard parts. There'd be 2 or 3 energy amplifiers that are all used in multiple thigns.

That's nice. Except with crafting you are gaining something, not just recovering functionality you used to have anyway. Choosing which of my 5 no longer working guns to repair with my recovered doo-dad doesn't sound like an amazingly exciting "choice". In fact it isn't even a choice, like healing crippled limbs isn't really a choice. You're just going to choose whichever one seems the most valuable.

How is it any less of a choice than deciding which of the things you can make is most valuable to you?

Lost? I won when you couldn't provide an example of a game with a more complex repair mechanic than "use your repair doo-dad on your item, hooray, choices with consequences!!!"

Arcanum, although it's not fully integrated into the repair system, has broken items that can be fixed with parts.

 

[kingcomrade]

If that was really accidental, I have no respect for this person's opinion. If it was deliberate, it's still really obnoxious.

 

[Alex]

Yes, of course you could have such a system Alex. Perhaps it would be fun, perhaps it would be annoying. Surely the same thing applies to medieval RPGs? How do you repair an item to full functionality with a hammer in the middle of the wilderness? Would it add to immersion if you were forced to trek back to the smith each time? I think PA games should have scarce resources but too much micromanagement of parts will get on my nerves after awhile.

As far as I'm concerned this is good enough, endlessly fiddling about with armor patches and whatnot isn't going to add desperation, it will add tedium. After a while you will long for the "ffs just patch my armor automatically as best you can with the parts I have" button.

I think that wether the system would be boring or not would depend on how central the system is to the experience and how much time it consumes (of course personal preference also figures in, but since I can't do much about it, I won't comment on it). If repairing is something the player needs to do once in a while to make his weapons work right, then a system like the one Bethesda is using seems more appropriate.

On the other hand, if the player needs to work a lot for each and every part he can get, most items in the gameworld are almost broken and full of wrong pieces, and these substitutions actually make a big difference on how the item works, then repairing might take a bigger role without becoming boring, as it would be integral part of the game. It also could quite easily be merged into some kind of crafting system (i.e. crafting and repairing are about the same thing, only that when you are repairing, you are trying to follow a pre set recipe).

Also, my point of it fitting better on a PA setting is that having to make do with scrap is a big theme inside such settings. Repairing doesn't necessarily has much role in a medieval setting. It might or it might not according to the specific setting and story that is told. But on a world like fallout, repairing could be important while adding to the feel of the setting. It isn't necessary (the other fallouts didn't have any such system), but it was a possibility.

You guys have yet to convince me this is a "dumbing down" of anything, since it is as complex as any other repair system I've seen in an RPG. Certainly not cause to keep going "Look, bethesda is dumbing down RPGs again!"

I guess I kind of lost my point in the last post, but what I was trying to say is that Bethesda frequently avoids more complicated mechanics in their games. Let's take an example from that oblivion vs morrowind thread. In daggefall, the character creation mechanics were more complex than those in morrowind.

When you created a custom class, you could choose from many advantages and disadvantages, from more skills and from reputations. In morrowind, there is the possibility to use birthsigns and race to gain some advantages, but that is it.

Now, one might even say that the simpler system is better, but my point is that they avoid more complex system, and that more complex systems can be better for some tasks.

May I come too?

You may.

Yay!

 

[Naked Ninja]

I guess I kind of lost my point in the last post, but what I was trying to say is that Bethesda frequently avoids more complicated mechanics in their games. Let's take an example from that oblivion vs morrowind thread. In daggefall, the character creation mechanics were more complex than those in morrowind.

I dunno, I really don't think this is a prime example of a general design philosophy of dumbing down. You can argue that other things are, but I don't believe it for this case.

When making a game, there is simply a limit to what you can include. You have X time and Y resources to make a game. Sure, any group of people on the internet can take any aspect of your game and contemplate how it could be made better and more complex. Mostly they think up these ideas in a vacuum, a "wouldn't this be great!" space which has no sense of limited resources.

Personally, if I were to rank areas of the design which I would choose to spend more time on, repair mechanics would be right at the bottom of the list. Put in a system that serves the general purpose, then if you have extra dev time at the end rather focus on dialogues, storyline, character skills, whatever.

So this general spitting on repair mechanics that, lets be honest, are no worse than in any other RPG, seems really unjustified. I put it down to the fact that a lot of Codexers seem to feel they are "betraying the cause" if they don't say at least one bad thing about everything Bethesda related they read.

 

[Gladi]

They're not actually giving the player humongous amounts of ammo like in the screenshot, right? That'd annihilate the need for any ammo at all.

Bright day
Sorry to to go to old post and interrupt the nice flames you guys have there, but...

I have been recently playing Fallout 2 and by mid-game ammo was meaningless, unless you used something truly exotic.

 

[Gerrard]

At least it had weight.

 

[Shannow]

Just goes to show that you never went on a child killing rampage.

So many assholes,
so few bullets.

 

[Brother None]

Sorry to to go to old post and interrupt the nice flames you guys have there, but...

I have been recently playing Fallout 2 and by mid-game ammo was meaningless, unless you used something truly exotic.

I love how you're stating that as if it actually disproves his point.

He says "massive amounts of ammo really annihilates the need for ammo". And you act as if "that was the case in Fallout 2 as well" is a counter-point? What, "they did it too"?

But to answer the question:

They're not actually giving the player humongous amounts of ammo like in the screenshot, right? That'd annihilate the need for any ammo at all.

Demos start with hacked characters, with massive amounts of ammo. Ammo is supposed to be scarce in the real game.

 

[Gladi]

Sorry to to go to old post and interrupt the nice flames you guys have there, but...

I have been recently playing Fallout 2 and by mid-game ammo was meaningless, unless you used something truly exotic.

I love how you're stating that as if it actually disproves his point.

He says "massive amounts of ammo really annihilates the need for ammo". And you act as if "that was the case in Fallout 2 as well" is a counter-point? What, "they did it too"?

Counter-point to what exactly? I do well agree that having a lot of ammo renders it quite meaningless. Well not really meaningless, those 500 micro-fusion cells do not carry themselves, ultimately making me do more trips between my (oh so small) car trunk and dead bodies of my enemies. If I was making any point, it was that it is nothing new and is quite well established genre convention in RPGs. "Magic is mysterious and super-rare, well except for our group" or "this particular technology has been lost in the ages past, well except our group". If I were ponderring more than I am now, at half an hour past midnight, I would wonder why he feels that it is wrong to use it. Instead I just point, ah, that it is nothing new under the Sun, spawned by foul Bethesda to destroy our lives.

PS: While game, which gave you Ultimate One-Shot-One-Kill Laser Pistol, and actually made it one shot, would be interesting. I am afraid it would be just feature, that would annoy many people.