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Power creep/bloat ruining world building.

Lazing Dirk

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Innoruuk, the God of HATE, which as an necromancer is my deity responsible for teaching the Dark Arts to my character is an raid boss. His level? 63~65. In live, there are random desert snakes at lv 70+.

That kind of thing really boils my piss. Even Morrowind did it in Bloodmoon; those random forest witches seemed about as tough as ordinators despite being spellcasters with no armour. Then there's Witcher 3 where a bandit 10 levels higher than you (why were levels even a thing?) might as well be a solid steel golem wielding a light saber, despite having the same rubbish gear as any other bandit dipshit.

I'm okay with stuff like ARPGs where enemies getting stronger with you is integral to the game though, just so long as they're actually new enemies, and preferably if they look more dangerous too; I don't want to be facing more rats and naked goblins at level 50. Speaking of which, this was also one thing that threw me in Underrail. There I am, a walking murder machine, I go to the DLC, and what am I fighting? Half-naked dudes with sharpened bones, crabs, insects, and spiders. At least some of them heavily relied on items and abilities rather than just being mysteriously strong. Dark Souls generally seems to get this part right, where enemies also tend to look more dangerous as you progress instead of just having inflated stats, and you can probably tell how much damage it'll take to kill depending on its size and armour. It's nice to walk around a corner and see a new enemy for the first time and think, "Oh fuck me that thing looks dangerous, better be careful", instead of "Oh no, that number is bigger than the other numbers I've seen so far".
 

JamesDixon

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
why were levels even a thing?

It's easier to program them combined with the entire Skinner Box dopamine hits that games are designed around. Point based RPGs like GURPS and Hero System require a lot of math and coding to get right. That's why no video game has ever been made yet. In the 1990s, Hero Games attempted to have a Champions video game made, but the developer dropped it due to the difficulty in getting all the systems in.
 

Lazing Dirk

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On a related note, this sort of thing also gives rise to really dumb ways of controlling player progress. Metroidvanias might make you get a macguffin to unlock an ability, other games might stick down a few appropriately dangerous enemies (like the deathclaws sort of blocking off the direct route to new vegas), some add a puzzle you can't solve until later (usually just a twist on the macguffin), others might have some NPC tell you to go away until you complete some other quest, maybe there'll be a cave in that hasn't been cleared yet, whatever. But the total lazy bullshit option is to plop down a few level 50 badgers at a choke point and force the player to fuck off elsewhere to increase some numbers because their 6 foot long Megakill Deathsword Turboslasher 9000 Ultra only does 400 damage and a level 50
w4PHaw0.png
Badger
w4PHaw0.png
has 2 million hp.

Edit: I am saddened to find I can't affix little unicode skulls to the bagder, xenforo seems to strip it out. Will have to cheat.
 

Cryomancer

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Also about magic, I like less flashy spells way more. For example, an spell to freeze my enemy hearts seems way more interesting than creating huge pillars of ice and using it to crush my enemy it also preserves the corpses for further experimentations .

Bloodmoon

About Mororwind in bloodmoon, in bloodmoon, the whole point is that everything there is so savage that the empire is struggling to colonize there.
 

Lazing Dirk

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About Mororwind in bloodmoon, in bloodmoon, the whole point is that everything there is so savage that the empire is struggling to colonize there.

I get that, but spellcasters are usually squishy not just in general, but even in Morrowind itself. It would've made more sense for them to still have low(er) health like every other spellcaster, but just be extra dangerous, or be able to cast stronger/AoE buffs/debuffs, or summon some tree bitches, or to have more support (which they usually had anyway due to Bloodmoon's insane enemy density), rather than just being mysteriously spongy.
 

Poseidon00

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I actually like it quite a bit when you can achieve levels of power no human should have a right to. DnD 2nd Edition did this better than anyone though. You didn't achieve 20,000 HP by maximum level, nor did you have -200 Thac0, but your powers became truly superhuman nonetheless.
 

Lhynn

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Flatter power curves are better, and horizontal character development is better than vertical. Get more abilities and more options to solve problems, rather than just making numbers bigger.
Flatter power curve also means that low level enemies stay dangerous in the late game if you face massive amounts of them, while high level enemies can be defeated by a mid level character as long as clever tactics are used.
There is a middle ground.

There should be a progression, people do actually get better with experience, they dont just learn more, they become faster and smarter. Some people at the top of their game are invincible for most practitioners of that same discipline, thats just a fact of life, and they werent always there, there was a progression to get them where they were.

The problems always start when it comes to reality bending shit, magic should be a lot weaker and more inconvenient, because it is always the thing that gets in the way of a satisfying high level experience.
 

Üstad

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Systems without levels tends to have much less power creep.
The Age of Decadence didn't have levels or class and there was no power creep. Th end game boss could still smack you down even if you completely invested in combat skills.
 
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ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm okay with stuff like ARPGs where enemies getting stronger with you is integral to the game though, just so long as they're actually new enemies, and preferably if they look more dangerous too; I don't want to be facing more rats and naked goblins at level 50. Speaking of which, this was also one thing that threw me in Underrail. There I am, a walking murder machine, I go to the DLC, and what am I fighting? Half-naked dudes with sharpened bones, crabs, insects, and spiders.
Hard disagree here. Throughout Underrail, it has been shown that the fauna is dangerous. Even maxed, Psi Beetles will push your shit in. You're a glass cannon? Prepare to reload after that death stalker stings you. I see no issue with Crabs and Spiders being threatening, especially as it all depends on your build. My Metathermics Sledgehammer Tank could tank all of them no problem, but my TC Sniper was always in danger. As for the natives, the whole design philosophy behind them was that they overwhelm you with numbers. There is a reason almost all of them have comparatively low health versus other enemies. All the enemies themselves were new, and I just explained why their strength was reasonable (A spider the size of a wolf would fuck someone up), so I don't see what you're taking issue with.
 

Lazing Dirk

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Hard disagree here. Throughout Underrail, it has been shown that the fauna is dangerous. Even maxed, Psi Beetles will push your shit in. You're a glass cannon? Prepare to reload after that death stalker stings you. I see no issue with Crabs and Spiders being threatening, especially as it all depends on your build. My Metathermics Sledgehammer Tank could tank all of them no problem, but my TC Sniper was always in danger. As for the natives, the whole design philosophy behind them was that they overwhelm you with numbers. There is a reason almost all of them have comparatively low health versus other enemies. All the enemies themselves were new, and I just explained why their strength was reasonable (A spider the size of a wolf would fuck someone up), so I don't see what you're taking issue with.

I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I have no problem with them being strong, and yes it does make sense that they're a threat. I was commenting on the fact that it's end-game content and I'm fighting crabs and spiders. Large crabs and spiders, but crabs and spiders none the less. It was like being in some bizzaro-land Temple of Trials.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Hard disagree here. Throughout Underrail, it has been shown that the fauna is dangerous. Even maxed, Psi Beetles will push your shit in. You're a glass cannon? Prepare to reload after that death stalker stings you. I see no issue with Crabs and Spiders being threatening, especially as it all depends on your build. My Metathermics Sledgehammer Tank could tank all of them no problem, but my TC Sniper was always in danger. As for the natives, the whole design philosophy behind them was that they overwhelm you with numbers. There is a reason almost all of them have comparatively low health versus other enemies. All the enemies themselves were new, and I just explained why their strength was reasonable (A spider the size of a wolf would fuck someone up), so I don't see what you're taking issue with.

I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. I have no problem with them being strong, and yes it does make sense that they're a threat. I was commenting on the fact that it's end-game content and I'm fighting crabs and spiders. Large crabs and spiders, but crabs and spiders none the less. It was like being in some bizzaro-land Temple of Trials.
Expedition is mid game content though. Most people go from 16-20.
 

gurugeorge

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Power bloat is usually the result of progression based games that want to be played "forever" because their business model demands it. MMORPGs being the best examples.

Yeah that's about the size of it. It's basically the result of developers milking a good thing beyond the point of absurdity.

There's something really stupid about the idea of progression anyways (unless it's in the limited context of a progression in a storyline against tougher mobs constrained by some sense of realism - but that has a natural limit). All that changes is that the amounts of health you can chip away at are more coarse-grained early on (therefore more subject to RNG vagaries) and more fine-grained later on.

Unless there's horizontal progression, you're basically doing the same thing (taking 20% health out with a light strike, 70% with a heavy, for example), just with bigger numbers on both sides, so it's a bit of a silly illusion really.

I guess you could say that the MMO colour typing makes sense - like, early on, you can barely handle 3 "white" mobs, then when you're fully developed you can handle 3 "purple" with the colours representing toughness relative to you. But other than that, it's an illusion.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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I get that, but spellcasters are usually squishy not just in general, but even in Morrowind itself. It would've made more sense for them to still have low(er) health like every other spellcaster, but just be extra dangerous, or be able to cast stronger/AoE buffs/debuffs, or summon some tree bitches, or to have more support (which they usually had anyway due to Bloodmoon's insane enemy density), rather than just being mysteriously spongy.
It's a fair complaint that the high difficulty of random creatures, such as spriggans or rieflings, and even NPCs in Bloodmoon is inconsistent with the setting and lore, but of course this was an expansion specifically made for high-levels PCs who had already completed the main quest of the base game. More realistic statistics for the enemies in Bloodmoon would simply have resulted in most of them being push-overs for the typical character.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
one of the things I hate the most in games is when devs want you to separate gameplay from story because they're shit designers who want to fill high level areas with trash mobs that have inflated stats
 

ropetight

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The problem is the class/enemy design. Everything is about making all those numbers bigger and bigger continuously. Japanese cartoon porn games for example have taken this to an extreme by having their games often start characters as a guy who does 10 damage a hit with 50 hp and turns you into a guy who does 9999 damage with 9999 hp. Builds then in general often turn into whether you want your hp, melee damage, magic damage, etc. maximized. It is understandable though since the systems were original designed for a board game where you can't have too many rules or complicated systems otherwise it would take forever to get through a character's turn in Pen & Paper with all the calculations.

You can't appeal to any complexities like: plate armor was designed to make a character practically impervious to the weapons of the era, so if you wanted to kill him, you had to use specialized techniques and specialized weapons (even though these were not very effective near the end of the Renaissance). Archery? pretty much a non-option. Maybe you could use it for a psychological advantage and if you're lucky, kill a horse or hit the knight in one of the few unarmored spots. Bladed weapons? you had to resort to grappling and specialized techniques in order to even be able to kill the guy. You're not stabbing your way through that steel. Blunt-objects? Good plate armor with padding underneath as was typically worn was great at shock distribution to the point where at best a person would hear a loud clank if hit in the head. Everything about fighting such a heavily armored guy was grappling, tripping, and doing all manner of things to try to circumvent the armor. In fact, most of the time. Even the existence of canons didn't change the status quo in medieval warfare. It took economics to change it. The only reason plate armor went out of fashion is because there was a large population boom where the pool of conscripts started to really overwhelming the typical men-at-arms classes and it turns out thousands of guys in maybe a breastplate and helmet in mixed weapon brigades were much more cost effective than knights and can regularly defeat the traditional men-at-arms. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Wars

If anything the commonality of armor only disappeared in the late 17th and early 18th century when firearms and tactical development well outstripped what was possible with plate armor as soldiers and mercenaries still used breastplates and such if they could afford them up to that point.

What does a ruleset do though? Plate armor increases AC to reduce hit chance, so you're less likely to damage the guy. But you just have your character attack the seeming same way as he does everything else and then he "hits" instead of "misses" and now does damage. Meanwhile, AC also includes the ability to evade damage, so there's no mechanical difference between a guy with say 20 AC in plate vs. 20 AC naked with dex and dodge in the 3e+ D&D or similar rulesets if we ignore flatfooded (Dex guy is much less likely to be flatfooted anyways due to initiative bonuses). If the game doesn't have hit chance, it's just damage reduction so you just have to wack the guy more with your sword. Though 3e for example does have grappling and maneuvers in its ruleset, this isn't the case in general for rpgs as it usually just comes down to make your hp and damage numbers big.

If the ruleset wanted to represent how armor effective fighting, there would be more there than simply AC, bonus to hit chance, saves, damage reduction, and hp.

Second there's the need for "challenge" or "difficulty" where for some reason, rpg developers believe that the average enemy you start fighting should stay as strong relative to your character regardless of what they've been actually doing. If you're character just spent the last year clearing out bandit camps and undead infested ruins, then should a campaign where you're fighting enemies that are anatomically the same as the enemies you've previously been fighting with maybe some extra training and better gear over your previous enemies who maybe have been nothing but soldiers or watchmen on guard or garrison duty be any challenge to your characters in even numbers? If they are kept the same strength as before and the numbers are increased to compensate for their lack compared to yours, why should you even fight them? At the same time? Why would you suddenly be able to stand still and endure twenty or maybe thirty of their attacks while you one-shot all of them?

At the same time because these are "rpgs" any """"difficulty"""" usually just comes down hp and damage bloat because that's usually the only thing that can be done. On top of that, the """difficulty""" is trivialized simply by min-maxing before even starting the game. (Was it really there to begin with?)

In mmos, the most iconic example is EverQuest. At first, is the typical high fantasy fictional world ruled by gnome merchants like FriendlyMerchant.
Just because you're an honorary Merchant's Guild Associate doesn't mean you can leak our secrets.
Agree.

I have low tolerance for games that are basically mindless grind with numbers porn.
Basically, every game that has HP in thousands for some trash mob and levels exceeding 20 is lazy design to me.
Level should represent a tier of monster, as it was intended - level one is unskilled, and ten is half-god.

But then you can't have gratuitous xp or ability to level up to max level after grind skinning zillions of squirrels.
Some games prevented this kind of gameplay (Pathfinder somehow comes to mind) with mechanics of familiarity with monster - after each kill you would get new entry about that enemy in codex. When you fill codex until the end, no more xp for killing those enemies.

There are so many mechanics that are tried for making combat more difficult without power creep.

Resistances and immunities, armor classes and various penetration mechanics (i.e. piercing vs blunt/slashing) can bring some diversity (ha!) into combat without exponential growth of numbers if used in moderation.
Trolls in DnD were always heart-pounding encounters and reasons to restart the game if you don't have fire/acid weapons or spells. And they are far from end-game tier monsters.

But mechanics like this also require adding original content or you end with diabloesque enemies in different colors that are immune/resistant to certain weapons, which is not that much better than power creep. That game really showed way to the Endless Milkers(tm) how to generate almost endless new content with small variations.

Using terrain, visibility (day/night/camouflage) and covers also can make combat more interesting.

As for adding mechanics for grappling and precise combat manoeuvres, you would have to remove or tone down stats like dexterity and adding skills for it. Knockdown/stun/flanking/taunt are pretty common and fun skills/modifiers, so adding something similar shouldn't be much more work. But making it requirement for dispatching certain type of enemies would make game some kind of turn based soulslike, and I don't know how I feel about that.

I know - all this is nothing new. But imagine if only enemies in cRPG would know how to use these mechanics against you - it would be fantastic!
Fighting equivalent of black belt grappler that ambushed you should be deadly even without HP hyperinflation.
But that requires some serious creativity and AI development, and most developers are limited with budget or knowledge to make it work.
So they shifted from designing stuff that are actually interesting for single player and made games that are actually MMO's in disguise.

And I'm not against overwhelming throngs of low-tier enemies as choke points - it is believable to me that thousand badgers on rampage ain't nuthing ta f' wit. Especially if you have the way to reduce their numbers with some puzzle or reactive choice, or even totally avoid them - because it is not expected that you attack them and survive.
But five spellcasting azure diamondback laser-eye badgers of infinite mana guarding bridge and drop key is just lazy.
 

FriendlyMerchant

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As for adding mechanics for grappling and precise combat manoeuvres, you would have to remove or tone down stats like dexterity and adding skills for it. Knockdown/stun/flanking/taunt are pretty common and fun skills/modifiers, so adding something similar shouldn't be much more work. But making it requirement for dispatching certain type of enemies would make game some kind of turn based soulslike, and I don't know how I feel about that.


I know - all this is nothing new. But imagine if only enemies in cRPG would know how to use these mechanics against you - it would be fantastic!
Knights of the Chalice 1+2 do this. You just need a developer who actually cares about making good AI instead of trying to be yet another multiple choice test dialogue cutscene movie game.
 

ropetight

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As for adding mechanics for grappling and precise combat manoeuvres, you would have to remove or tone down stats like dexterity and adding skills for it. Knockdown/stun/flanking/taunt are pretty common and fun skills/modifiers, so adding something similar shouldn't be much more work. But making it requirement for dispatching certain type of enemies would make game some kind of turn based soulslike, and I don't know how I feel about that.


I know - all this is nothing new. But imagine if only enemies in cRPG would know how to use these mechanics against you - it would be fantastic!
Knights of the Chalice 1+2 do this. You just need a developer who actually cares about making good AI instead of trying to be yet another multiple choice test dialogue cutscene movie game.

I have to try KotC 2.
Full price kept me away so far (KotC is still 20$, sequel is double that), but everyone is full of praise, so it seems price point is warranted.
 

Cryomancer

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Ideally, in an RPG you should't even get more hp, like VtMB at the beginning and at end game. PCs get better """armor""", much more disciplines, skills and attributes but still the same hp.

leak our secrets.

Just say that is a conspiracy theory from antinanist human necromancers which worship Innoruuk and eny/hate gnome enchanters. Bribe/charm priests of Solusek Ro to advocate for an crusade against such antinanistic ideas and make sure that antinanists will be hated so much taht will be unable to use banks and be kill on sight everywhere. Problem solved. hu3hu3hu3hu3

Full price kept me away so far (KotC is still 20$, sequel is double that), but everyone is full of praise, so it seems price point is warranted.

Believe on me. KoTC2 despite expensive for such low budget game is a masterpiece.
 
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JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
As for adding mechanics for grappling and precise combat manoeuvres, you would have to remove or tone down stats like dexterity and adding skills for it. Knockdown/stun/flanking/taunt are pretty common and fun skills/modifiers, so adding something similar shouldn't be much more work. But making it requirement for dispatching certain type of enemies would make game some kind of turn based soulslike, and I don't know how I feel about that.


I know - all this is nothing new. But imagine if only enemies in cRPG would know how to use these mechanics against you - it would be fantastic!
Knights of the Chalice 1+2 do this. You just need a developer who actually cares about making good AI instead of trying to be yet another multiple choice test dialogue cutscene movie game.

I have to try KotC 2.
Full price kept me away so far (KotC is still 20$, sequel is double that), but everyone is full of praise, so it seems price point is warranted.
It is the best turn based combatfag RPG ever made. Not an exaggeration. The campaign's encounter design is tough as nails bordering on unfairness and while this can be a lot of fun if you're in the right mindset, it's understandable why some people don't like the campaign.

But it also has full mod support and a module editor, and more campaigns will be released in the future.

If you like D&D style turn based combat you MUST get this game.
 

ropetight

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As for adding mechanics for grappling and precise combat manoeuvres, you would have to remove or tone down stats like dexterity and adding skills for it. Knockdown/stun/flanking/taunt are pretty common and fun skills/modifiers, so adding something similar shouldn't be much more work. But making it requirement for dispatching certain type of enemies would make game some kind of turn based soulslike, and I don't know how I feel about that.


I know - all this is nothing new. But imagine if only enemies in cRPG would know how to use these mechanics against you - it would be fantastic!
Knights of the Chalice 1+2 do this. You just need a developer who actually cares about making good AI instead of trying to be yet another multiple choice test dialogue cutscene movie game.

I have to try KotC 2.
Full price kept me away so far (KotC is still 20$, sequel is double that), but everyone is full of praise, so it seems price point is warranted.
It is the best turn based combatfag RPG ever made. Not an exaggeration. The campaign's encounter design is tough as nails bordering on unfairness and while this can be a lot of fun if you're in the right mindset, it's understandable why some people don't like the campaign.

But it also has full mod support and a module editor, and more campaigns will be released in the future.

If you like D&D style turn based combat you MUST get this game.
(Peer) pressure always gets me.
6vpr8r.jpg
 

RaggleFraggle

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I always thought leveling systems created issues like this. See, the original stories (myth, legend, folklore, pulp fiction, etc) that inspired games with level systems (i.e. D&D) were never written with leveling in mind. Leveling was added to give players the sense of earned progression. When you then try to apply leveling to worlds that were never created with it in mind, then it falls apart. I don't know if there's ever anyway to have leveling make sense with any world, even if the world is made with it in mind. I think it's too much of an abstraction.

In fact, I don't think horizontal advancement is present very much in the old stories either. e.g. the Greek demigod Heracles starts out with super strength, but he doesn't become stronger or develop additional powers. He gains a few items like the hide of Nemean lion, but otherwise he seems to maintain the same power level across the various monsters he fights. Most progression that I can think of in the old tales has to do with social advancement, such as Arthur becoming king of Camelot. Anyone have a better analysis?
 

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