Power creep/bloat ruining world building.

[Cryomancer]

When the scales of power become so ridiculous that even deities stop being epic. Examples?

PF:WoTR. At chapter 4, even the lowest of low demons like Babaus become so incredible powerful due an crystal which is poorly explained that even your caster with caster level 25+ have trouble defeating them. How anyone has any chance against such Abyssal forces? The whole human crusade against demons lost the meaning due it. And following the lich mythic path, you can do things like reviving demon lords. Mephistopheles which is an enemy where you spend an entire chapter to get hs true name and weak him a bit to have a small chance to kill in HotU is merely another guy to kill in your Azata questline

In mmos, the most iconic example is EverQuest. At first, is the typical high fantasy fictional world ruled by gnome merchants like FriendlyMerchant. The first expansion started with an ancient continent to explore full of evil reptilians. Few expansions later had travel in between planes, extra planetary/moon travel(Luclin) among other things. And now, the game is extremely bloated. Innoruuk, the God of HATE, which as an necromancer is my deity responsible for teaching the Dark Arts to my character is an raid boss. His level? 63~65. In live, there are random desert snakes at lv 70+.

Throne of Baal is a game which many people would say that is ruined by being too epic and bloated but IMO the greatest problem of ToB is not the extremely high epicness. Is that the game is just corridor boss fight after corridor boss fight.

 

[CanadianCorndog]

It's a relatively risk-free way of keeping things sort of interesting. The alternative would be having a strong premise for the game and then letting the character choices show growth to endings that demonstrate that premise. A good story integrated into the game.

Writing a strong story is easier said than done (very few talented writers out there) and requires a talented single author or a strong lead author with a vision. It's also not measurable in the way making game assets and filling environments is measurable.

 

[JamesDixon]

OD&D and its derivatives break down past level 11-12 which is why things deteriorate like you describe. It's a problem with the game designer more than the actual system.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Honestly BG2 is a good example. You're a mid level party and the campaign takes place in a city, so naturally the city needs to have a gigantic beholder lair, a mind flayer hideout, several liches, a portal to another plane, whatever the planar sphere is, a godlike wizards sex dungeon, and a war between a faction of high level thieves and a faction of high level vampires. I get that Forgotten Realms was basically tailor made for this whacky kitchen sink fantasy but it feels very unbelievable after the more down to earth BG1.

 

[agris]

In mmos, the most iconic example is EverQuest. At first, is the typical high fantasy fictional world ruled by gnome merchants like FriendlyMerchant. The first expansion started with an ancient continent to explore full of evil reptilians. Few expansions later had travel in between planes, extra planetary/moon travel(Luclin) among other things. And now, the game is extremely bloated. Innoruuk, the God of HATE, which as an necromancer is my deity responsible for teaching the Dark Arts to my character is an raid boss. His level? 63~65. In live, there are random desert snakes at lv 70+.

I know what you mean about the planes, but FYI Plane of Fear, Hate and Sky were all in OG EQ (and were tough as nails, they rocked).

 

[Cryomancer]

OD&D and its derivatives break down past level 11-12 w

Initially, D&D din't even had tier 7~9 spells and levels past 13. Some retroclones also don't include levels past 12. A bit past lv 12 can still works, but the numbers become ridiculous at late teens and epic levels. Like "I have -9 THAC0 and the enemy has -8 AC, so I need to roll -1 to hit him. his saves against spells and death are -3"

But the main problem of PF:WoTR is not that is a bit more epic than lets say Dark Sun : Wake of The ravager(level cap = 15 / maximum spell level = 7). Is that PF:WoTR is far more epic than even NWN1:HotU and NwN2: MotB. I would argue that chapter 4 of WoTR is more epic than the last chapter of HotU which is already an epic level adventure.

You're a mid level party and the campaign takes place in a city, so naturally the city needs to have a gigantic beholder lair, a mind flayer hideout, several liches, a portal to another plane, whatever the planar sphere is, a godlike wizards sex dungeon

BG2 tried to crank too much content in a small city. So far, the "hobo liches" are the most ludicrous thing.

I know what you mean about the planes, but FYI Plane of Fear, Hate and Sky were all in OG EQ (and were tough as nails, they rocked).

I just don't think in how someone could even land spells and melee hits in the PoF/PoH with lv cap = 50 in OG EQ. But when I said planar adventure, I was talking about plane of knowledge/plane of tranquility which essentially made all Wiz/Dru teleport skills far less important. And gathering rare spell ingredients to research spells far less important too.

 

[Daemongar]

I never cared for games just adding another + to your sword and adding another +100 hps to your enemies. It always struck me as a system designed by folks who never played pnp rpgs.

Asmodeus in AD&D has 199 hps. Modern demon type enemies probably have HPS in the 1000s. But Asmodeus isn't merely HPs. As described by Gygax, "Asmodus, arch-fiend, the Overlord of all the dukes of Hell rules by both might and wit. He is physically stronger than any other devil (as strong as a storm giant) and the most cunning and artful."

Bloat is a symptom of shit-tier design. If you added Asmodeus to your crpg - you'd beat him down in a round or two if he was just hps, like common crpg design. However, if he was played as Gygax designed him, he'd be fucking impossible to beat. The players aren't crafty enough to win, so he always has an out.

 

[Cryomancer]

Asmodeus in AD&D has 199 hps.

Yep. But even dealing one point of damage to him was extremely hard.

 

[d1r]

Number bloat is one of the worst offenders in RPG's for sure. It's developpers basically saying they give fuck all about balance (just fight bigger numbers with even more bigger numbers!) for the sake of quantity.

How you do it right: Baldur's Gate 1/2
How you do it completely and utterly wrong: Divinity 2 OS

 

[Cryomancer]

Number bloat is one of the worst offenders in RPG's for sure. It's developpers basically saying they give fuck all about balance (just fight bigger numbers with even more bigger numbers!) for the sake of quantity.

IMO is not about balance, is that numbers should measure something. Too much number inflation destroy the number value.

 

[NecroLord]

I never cared for games just adding another + to your sword and adding another +100 hps to your enemies. It always struck me as a system designed by folks who never played pnp rpgs.

Asmodeus in AD&D has 199 hps. Modern demon type enemies probably have HPS in the 1000s. But Asmodeus isn't merely HPs. As described by Gygax, "Asmodus, arch-fiend, the Overlord of all the dukes of Hell rules by both might and wit. He is physically stronger than any other devil (as strong as a storm giant) and the most cunning and artful."

Bloat is a symptom of shit-tier design. If you added Asmodeus to your crpg - you'd beat him down in a round or two if he was just hps, like common crpg design. However, if he was played as Gygax designed him, he'd be fucking impossible to beat. The players aren't crafty enough to win, so he always has an out.

Asmodeus is one of the most intelligent and cunning beings in all the Realms. Even if a party of epic level adventurers decides to kill Asmodeus,he probably already is two steps ahead of them and has planned everything down to the smallest detail. Killing Asmodeus would also be really bad for the outcome of the Blood War,as his strategic genius(and the constant infighting between the Tanar'ri) is what is keeping the Tanar'ri from turning their gaze towards the Prime Material Plane and turning it into another layer of the Abyss or worse...

The problem is,as pretty much always,the casters. They become so massively overpowered that the game pretty much revolves around them and their ability to do their stuff while the rest of the party sit around like morons.

 

[ItsChon]

The way you solve shit like this is by having a high lethality system which forces you to be careful even around lower level enemies.

The problem is,as pretty much always,the casters. They become so massively overpowered that the game pretty much revolves around them and their ability to do their stuff while the rest of the party sit around like morons.

A setting where magic is rare/scarce (combat magic especially so) has so much more potential in regards to story telling than a setting where magic is abundant and everywhere. Once you realize how much an over abundance of magic breaks the rules of everything, it's hard to look at settings the same. That's not even mentioning the effects it has on combat systems.

 

[NecroLord]

A Hyborian Age system would be awesome in regards to magic. Magic is rare and incredibly dangerous in Robert E.Howard's setting. It often involves dark rituals and human sacrifices,as the wizards are always struggling to maintain their power.

 

[Cryomancer]

They become so massively overpowered

That depends on the setting. The average mid/high level magician in an Netherese campaign will have way more powerful spells and magical items than the average mid/high level magician in an Dark Sun campaign. Because preparing spells is much harder and scrolls are insanely rare and expensive and countrary to Woketard's bastardizations, casters can't learn spells from nothing after leveling up.

A Hyborian Age system would be awesome in regards to magic. Magic is rare and incredibly dangerous in Robert E.Howard's setting. It often involves dark rituals and human sacrifices,as the wizards are always struggling to maintain their power.

Here is an alternate system for low magic : http://hyboria.xoth.net/sorcery/low_magic_system.htm

Following are the magic system design goals:

• 1. Magic should be costly for all casters and extremely dangerous for the novice. The cost of magic must remain tangible for even high level characters casting low level spells, but must be surmountable. In this setting, even capable mages would rather use their herbalism and healing skills to aid lightly wounded comrades. Attempting to call upon magical powers to heal a comrade should be costly enough that the spellcaster reserves it for only the very seriously injured.
• (...)
• 4. In this setting most sorcerers are power-mad, misanthropic and ruthless (in a word, evil). Something intrinsic in the magic system should either favor evil or should lead to the corruption of its practitioners. Spellcasters are feared and reviled.
• 5. The magic system ought not to be all-corrupting. While the evil sorcerers should be more powerful and more common, it should be possible for the PC team to have some level of magic support without being corrupted.
• 6. The magic system should justify, through requirement or advantage, the performance of the complex rituals used as plot devices in so many fantasy novels. Examples include such ritual components as casting a spell only when the stars are in a particular alignment or when the moon is full, requiring the ritual performance in a special location, requiring rare or even unique objects, or the performance of various types of sacrifices.
• 7. In this setting magic is mysterious, almost never seen. This suggests that there should be very little in the way of flashy offensive magic. If the magic system favored "walking arsenal" wizards, repeated confirmations of fireball launching wizards would have spread among the population like wildfire. To maintain a mysterious feel, magic in this setting needs to favor spells that can be cast while locked away in a wizard's inner sanctum. Types of spells that the magic system should particularly favor include spells of influence, control, scrying, communication, summoning, transmutation, cursing, weather control, etc.

source : http://hyboria.xoth.net/sorcery/low_magic_system.htm

The feats are like "demoniac pact" and great sacrifice.

 

[NecroLord]

Oh yeah. Netherese mages were notoriously overpowered. Karsus was level 41 I think...

 

[Cryomancer]

Oh yeah. Netherese mages were notoriously overpowered. Karsus was level 41 I think...

Not only that. An lv 12 mage in Netheril would probably have like 20+ different tier 6 spells in his spellbook. Meanwhile an lv 12 mage in Athas would be extremely lucky to have even a single tier 6 spell and since everyone hates magic, he would need to be very careful when casting. Even preparing the spell wold be relative hard as there are no weave in Athas and hence preparing spells is much harder.

 

[JamesDixon]

Oh yeah. Netherese mages were notoriously overpowered. Karsus was level 41 I think...

Not only that. An lv 12 mage in Netheril would probably have like 20+ different tier 6 spells in his spellbook. Meanwhile an lv 12 mage in Athas would be extremely lucky to have even a single tier 6 spell and since everyone hates magic, he would need to be very careful when casting. Even preparing the spell wold be relative hard as there are no weave in Athas and hence preparing spells is much harder.

Don't forget the land destruction from actually casting the spell as well.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I actually think ToB was OK on epicness and linearity. You're an epic level demigod churning towards the end of an ascension prophecy. Most of the creatures you fight are entirely appropriate for what they are and why they are there. The only egregious example of bloat Sendai's slaves & spiders. Their levels are obviously elevated despite still being fodder.

 

[JarlFrank]

Flatter power curves are better, and horizontal character development is better than vertical. Get more abilities and more options to solve problems, rather than just making numbers bigger.
Flatter power curve also means that low level enemies stay dangerous in the late game if you face massive amounts of them, while high level enemies can be defeated by a mid level character as long as clever tactics are used.

 

[Cryomancer]

Flatter power curves are better, and horizontal character development is better than vertical. Get more abilities and more options to solve problems, rather than just making numbers bigger.
Flatter power curve also means that low level enemies stay dangerous in the late game if you face massive amounts of them, while high level enemies can be defeated by a mid level character as long as clever tactics are used.

Agreed. Sidegrades >>> upgrades.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

The problem is the class/enemy design. Everything is about making all those numbers bigger and bigger continuously. Japanese cartoon porn games for example have taken this to an extreme by having their games often start characters as a guy who does 10 damage a hit with 50 hp and turns you into a guy who does 9999 damage with 9999 hp. Builds then in general often turn into whether you want your hp, melee damage, magic damage, etc. maximized. It is understandable though since the systems were original designed for a board game where you can't have too many rules or complicated systems otherwise it would take forever to get through a character's turn in Pen & Paper with all the calculations.

You can't appeal to any complexities like: plate armor was designed to make a character practically impervious to the weapons of the era, so if you wanted to kill him, you had to use specialized techniques and specialized weapons (even though these were not very effective near the end of the Renaissance). Archery? pretty much a non-option. Maybe you could use it for a psychological advantage and if you're lucky, kill a horse or hit the knight in one of the few unarmored spots. Bladed weapons? you had to resort to grappling and specialized techniques in order to even be able to kill the guy. You're not stabbing your way through that steel. Blunt-objects? Good plate armor with padding underneath as was typically worn was great at shock distribution to the point where at best a person would hear a loud clank if hit in the head. Everything about fighting such a heavily armored guy was grappling, tripping, and doing all manner of things to try to circumvent the armor. In fact, most of the time. Even the existence of canons didn't change the status quo in medieval warfare. It took economics to change it. The only reason plate armor went out of fashion is because there was a large population boom where the pool of conscripts started to really overwhelming the typical men-at-arms classes and it turns out thousands of guys in maybe a breastplate and helmet in mixed weapon brigades were much more cost effective than knights and can regularly defeat the traditional men-at-arms. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Wars

If anything the commonality of armor only disappeared in the late 17th and early 18th century when firearms and tactical development well outstripped what was possible with plate armor as soldiers and mercenaries still used breastplates and such if they could afford them up to that point.

What does a ruleset do though? Plate armor increases AC to reduce hit chance, so you're less likely to damage the guy. But you just have your character attack the seeming same way as he does everything else and then he "hits" instead of "misses" and now does damage. Meanwhile, AC also includes the ability to evade damage, so there's no mechanical difference between a guy with say 20 AC in plate vs. 20 AC naked with dex and dodge in the 3e+ D&D or similar rulesets if we ignore flatfooded (Dex guy is much less likely to be flatfooted anyways due to initiative bonuses). If the game doesn't have hit chance, it's just damage reduction so you just have to wack the guy more with your sword. Though 3e for example does have grappling and maneuvers in its ruleset, this isn't the case in general for rpgs as it usually just comes down to make your hp and damage numbers big.

If the ruleset wanted to represent how armor effective fighting, there would be more there than simply AC, bonus to hit chance, saves, damage reduction, and hp.

Second there's the need for "challenge" or "difficulty" where for some reason, rpg developers believe that the average enemy you start fighting should stay as strong relative to your character regardless of what they've been actually doing. If you're character just spent the last year clearing out bandit camps and undead infested ruins, then should a campaign where you're fighting enemies that are anatomically the same as the enemies you've previously been fighting with maybe some extra training and better gear over your previous enemies who maybe have been nothing but soldiers or watchmen on guard or garrison duty be any challenge to your characters in even numbers? If they are kept the same strength as before and the numbers are increased to compensate for their lack compared to yours, why should you even fight them? At the same time? Why would you suddenly be able to stand still and endure twenty or maybe thirty of their attacks while you one-shot all of them?

At the same time because these are "rpgs" any """"difficulty"""" usually just comes down hp and damage bloat because that's usually the only thing that can be done. On top of that, the """difficulty""" is trivialized simply by min-maxing before even starting the game. (Was it really there to begin with?)

In mmos, the most iconic example is EverQuest. At first, is the typical high fantasy fictional world ruled by gnome merchants like FriendlyMerchant.

Just because you're an honorary Merchant's Guild Associate doesn't mean you can leak our secrets.

 

[Azarkon]

Power bloat is usually the result of progression based games that want to be played "forever" because their business model demands it. MMORPGs being the best examples.

Since the death of a character and its associated investments in time and effort is seen as the greatest risk for a player to quit, permanent death is usually not implemented in these games. But having no permanent death requires you to have infinite progression. Hence, level 100 rats.

Games that aren't progression based, like Call of Duty and League of Legends, don't suffer from this problem. They are designed to be replayed, rather than progressed through. Long-term player retention comes naturally to these games and is relatively cheap to accomplish. It's one reason why in the game industry, the common wisdom is that if you want to make it big without making it expensive, make it PvP.

PvE examples do, however, exist of games that are meant to be replayed rather than progressed through. Usually they rely on randomly generated content and extremely challenging content where the retention model is based on competition over the speed or score of runs.

I don't think most of the people here are the audience for these games, though.

 

[NecroLord]

Yeah,one will probably have some difficulty getting through this armor with normal slashing weapons or arrows. FriendlyMerchant said it perfectly.

I am more of a "little to no armor,only focus on killing power" fan.

 

[Cryomancer]

But having no permanent death requires you to have infinite progression.

What about "side progression". Example, new enemies with completely different stats, weakness, strengths and so on to fight and way more different spells. Not better or worse spells, just different.

 

[Norfleet]

Power bloat affects even the systems themselves. How many hitpoints does a level 1 human warrior have? Even this basic number is subject to inflation over the years. You've gone from starting with 10 hitpoints to starting with 100 to starting with 1000. This isn't even power creep, it's just straight up stat inflation.