Game News Pillars of Eternity Released

[Decado]

Also, I am wandering around with myself (paladin), Eder, Aloth, and the lunatic priest guy. Does anyone know when/where I can fill out my party with some more dudes?

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, the encounter design is kind of lame. Even the optional mini-bosses are like "you killed 10 weak X and 5 medium X, now fight one big X". I'm 7 hours in, just got the keep, and I would guess my kills so far were 30% spiders and 30% spirits... kind of boring.

Level 2 cipher was too shit to kill a bear, I'm sure I"m doing everything wrong.

The Cipher is my favorite class (feels like a Warlock), but it isn't suitable for solo. It does a lot of damage, but can't take many hits.

Yep, seems the obvious way to use cipher early on is to stick a fighter on engagement and whip out the high damage soul abilities.

I like the idea of engagement and I'm OK with how it's working so far (only at the Temple), but that's assuming there's a plethora of ways to manage and micromanage engagement.

The stained glass window on the Black Hound inn

 

[serch]

Frankly, engagement is better than everybody retardly running towards heavy hitters, ignoring menaces in the way. It makes things more complex

 

[felipepepe]

A big complaint I have so far is the utter lack of character motivation. I became a Watcher, got a keep, and for some stupid reason I now must go after the people who did this to me! WHY?! Is like Peter Parker decided to find and sue the company that made the radioactive spider that bit him instead of using his new powers for something useful...

Also, I don't understand the gripes about encounter design, but I will fully admit to not "getting" encounter design in general -- beyond the obvious shit like filler combat. But nothing feels like filler combat yet.

Baldur's Gate had many memorable battles, not only for the combat itself - usually a spike in difficulty that forced you to change tactics -, but also for the set up. The only memorable one so far was the bear in the cave, and that's because I died 10 times there alone, before coming back with more characters...

I blame this balanced system, that makes even stuff like poison and web trivial, because nothing can be too powerful or require a hard counter. Even facing a powerful enemy mage is just "eh".

 

[Darth Roxor]

Frankly, engagement is better than everybody retardly running towards heavy hitters, ignoring menaces in the way. It makes things more complex

It hardly makes things more complex when it really boils down just to finding the tightest possible chokepoints, putting a dude there to facetank and killing the rest of the dudes on the other side with your arrer boyz. The stupidest thing about it in general is that you can't move even a single step without provoking a ridiculously punishing aoo - limiting kiting is one thing, but removing close combat manouvres completely is another. It's just stupid.

Plus, the game's retarded pathfinding only contributes to making me rage at this. Melee dudes will keep getting stuck while on the way to their actual target, they'll run around like retards while getting aoo'd, and no range indicators on spells means your mages also often just rush straight into engagement zones and get chopped to pieces. It's just bad all around.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't have a problem with engagement, at all. I think it is a good replacement for a generic aggro mechanic ala DA:O.

I am one of those idiots who is saying it (at least right now) feels like a better game than the IE games. That could change, I could burn out or whatever, but that's not likely. Also, I don't understand the gripes about encounter design, but I will fully admit to not "getting" encounter design in general -- beyond the obvious shit like filler combat. But nothing feels like filler combat yet.

From my experience, 90% of the time, what "good encounter design" in RPGs comes down to is fights where you have a constant dilemma between choosing to defend yourself from enemies who are close to you and attacking enemies who are farther away but potentially more devastating.

"Balance" is a factor here in the sense that it reduces the scope of power of those ranged enemies, but there's still plenty of room for this sort of encounter design in PoE's system.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Also, I don't understand the gripes about encounter design, but I will fully admit to not "getting" encounter design in general -- beyond the obvious shit like filler combat. But nothing feels like filler combat yet.

It's what felipepepe said, nearly all the encounters are just against generic enemies, and even the mini-bosses are just larger generic enemies. It feels like Obsidian said "we need some enemies in this area" and then rolled from a random encounter list to populate them, instead of building areas with more unique content. That's what my comparison with BG1 was about. While BG1 had plenty of generic enemies, there were also lots of hand placed unique enemies with unique builds who used different abilities on you. In PoE the first time you run into a shadow and he does his teleporting stuff it's interesting, because you haven't seen that before. Then you go deeper into the dungeon and you just get more and more shadows and the area feels like a slog. It would be much more interesting to have some shadows, some other enemies with different abilities, and especially some enemies who have actual stories behind them (even the assassins in BG1 have some story to them, if only that they are assassins with specific abilities and names).

Even the ogre outside the Friendly Arm Inn in BG1 was interesting, because it served as a boss battle in such an early area and, at the time, was a completely unique enemy. You needed to use different tactics to beat it. The closest thing you get to that in PoE is the bear cave, but even that is lamer because the actual solution to that is just coming back with a bigger party.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

From my experience, 90% of the time, what "good encounter design" in RPGs comes down to is fights where you have a constant dilemma between choosing to defend yourself from enemies who are close to you and attacking enemies who are farther away but potentially more devastating.

I don't really agree with this. I've mentioned several encounters from early BG1 as examples of good encounter design in this thread, and only one of them (the cleric near Beregost) is characterized by this. Good encounter design really means providing enemies that require different tactics to take down. Just take a look at the Friendly Arm Inn and surrounding areas, for example. You have your more generic mobs, hobgoblins, gibberlings, and wolves that provide a kind of base for how encounters go. These are multiple, weak units, though even they don't play all the same (hobgoblins in particular). Then you have your high-level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn. He's only one guy, but he has spells you haven't ever seen before which makes you use different tactics against him than you would against the groups of weaker enemies. Then the ogre in the wilderness is again different. Like the mage, he's a high-level single enemy, but the way you deal with him is completely different than how you deal with the mage. Not long after the game has begun you already have several different encounters that require different tactics to defeat. That is good encounter design.

"Balance" is a factor here in the sense that it reduces the scope of power of those ranged enemies, but there's still plenty of room for this sort of encounter design in PoE's system.

I agree completely that there is plenty of room for good encounter design in PoE's system. It's just a shame that I don't seem to be finding much of it.

 

[Black]

Plus, the game's retarded pathfinding only contributes to making me rage at this. Melee dudes will keep getting stuck while on the way to their actual target, they'll run around like retards while getting aoo'd, and no range indicators on spells means your mages also often just rush straight into engagement zones and get chopped to pieces. It's just bad all around.

You think it would've been better if the combat was tb and the game had pathfinding a'la DOS?

 

[Duraframe300]

A big complaint I have so far is the utter lack of character motivation. I became a Watcher, got a keep, and for some stupid reason I now must go after the people who did this to me! WHY?! Is like Peter Parker decided to find and sue the company that made the radioactive spider that bit him instead of using his new powers for something useful...
.

LoL NO

I'm glad for Sawyer doing this in his games (F:NV and now seemingly POE)

I don't want my fucking charachters motivation and thus part of his personality be forced on me. Thank you very much. Even if I'm forced to do something I'd rather very much decide why myself.

Biggest thing I hated about FO3 that spelled out my entire fucking childhood.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't really agree with this. I've mentioned several encounters from early BG1 as examples of good encounter design in this thread, and only one of them (the cleric near Beregost) is characterized by this. Good encounter design really means providing enemies that require different tactics to take down. Just take a look at the Friendly Arm Inn and surrounding areas, for example. You have your more generic mobs, hobgoblins, gibberlings, and wolves that provide a kind of base for how encounters go. These are multiple, weak units, though even they don't play all the same (hobgoblins in particular). Then you have your high-level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn. He's only one guy, but he has spells you haven't ever seen before which makes you use different tactics against him than you would against the groups of weaker enemies. Then the ogre in the wilderness is again different. Like the mage, he's a high-level single enemy, but the way you deal with him is completely different than how you deal with the mage. Not long after the game has begun you already have several different encounters that require different tactics to defeat. That is good encounter design.

I would call that "diverse" encounter design, not "good" encounter design. Though diverse encounter design is good too, of course.

But that doesn't mean "good" in the sense of having tactical depth. The high level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn is different and scary and everything, but in the end, he's just one guy you have to stab to death before he kills you, same as a Hobgoblin. (I never saw the big deal about that particular encounter, personally. Seems like it's a traumatic event for lots of people though.)

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Played couple hours on expert + hard. every moment is an orgasm.

Level 2 cipher was too shit to kill a bear, I'm sure I"m doing everything wrong.

On hard, the bear is unkillable first time you meet it. I went over to the town, found a companion, leveled, and then won just barely (by "prebuffing" by eating all the food I had).

That said, if I had bought a second companion at the inn I'd probably won it easily. I believe you are supposed to do that - ask for hired help at the inn and you can buy another two companions.

 

[Gentle Player]

I played through BG and IWD just before this came out, and POE seems much more reminiscent of DA:O (though much better) than IE to me. Though to be fair I haven't played much yet. The quality of the writing is nothing special - typical videogame fare - I'm not sure why people are lavishing praise on it. The story itself could be interesting though, I'll have to see where it goes. I'm getting something of a Dark Souls vibe from the plague of cursed ones born without souls.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I would call that "diverse" encounter design, not "good" encounter design. Though diverse encounter design is good too, of course.

But that doesn't mean "good" in the sense of having tactical depth. The high level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn is different and scary and everything, but in the end, he's just one guy you have to stab to death before he kills you, same as a Hobgoblin. (I never saw the big deal about that particular encounter, personally. Seems like it's a traumatic event for lots of people though.)

You can't have "good" encounter design without it being "diverse". If it's not diverse, then every encounter plays the same way and it's not good. Though frankly the distinction serves little purpose in a PoE thread, since PoE's encounter design lacks both diversity and tactical depth.

 

[Infinitron]

I would call that "diverse" encounter design, not "good" encounter design. Though diverse encounter design is good too, of course.

But that doesn't mean "good" in the sense of having tactical depth. The high level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn is different and scary and everything, but in the end, he's just one guy you have to stab to death before he kills you, same as a Hobgoblin. (I never saw the big deal about that particular encounter, personally. Seems like it's a traumatic event for lots of people though.)

You can't have "good" encounter design without it being "diverse". If it's not diverse, then every encounter plays the same way and it's not good. Though frankly the distinction serves little purpose in a PoE thread, since PoE's encounter design lacks both diversity and tactical depth.

Well, let's finish the game first and then talk about it, eh?

I played through BG and IWD just before this came out, and POE seems much more reminiscent of DA:O (though much better) than IE to me.

Why

 

[naossano]

A big complaint I have so far is the utter lack of character motivation. I became a Watcher, got a keep, and for some stupid reason I now must go after the people who did this to me! WHY?! Is like Peter Parker decided to find and sue the company that made the radioactive spider that bit him instead of using his new powers for something useful...
.

LoL NO

I'm glad for Sawyer doing this in his games (F:NV and now seemingly POE)

I don't want my fucking charachters motivation and thus part of his personality be forced on me. Thank you very much. Even if I'm forced to do something I'd rather very much decide why myself.

Biggest thing I hated about FO3 that spelled out my entire fucking childhood.

I didn't go very far for now, but i was delighted to not have a forced objective at that point. It basically your role to tell others characters where you come from, why you left, why you are there and what you intend to do. It feels like you take the driver seat of your char and not the passenger seat of character X.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Well, let's finish the game first and then talk about it, eh?

Sure. Hopefully it gets better, though having poor encounter design at the beginning of your game is still a flaw, even if it improves later on.

 

[Ramireza]

Well, let's finish the game first and then talk about it, eh?

Sure. Hopefully it gets better, though having poor encounter design at the beginning of your game is still a flaw, even if it improves later on.

Sorry, the encounters in BG1 where kinda lame too, most of the fights where killing trashmobs. It had may 7 or 8 realy interesting encounters in the whole game.

 

[Quatlo]

I have the feeling that the game just rolls PartyMembers*2 to see how many mobs to spawn

 

[Morkar Left]

The engagement mechanic sounds like a countermechanic for the headless chicken running that was prevalent in the IE games. I would have thought that's appreciated.

Why Dexers read skyrim threads?

They even create some.

Who's a cute little skeleton? Ohh, you are!

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Sorry, the encounters in BG1 where kinda lame too, most of the fights where killing trashmobs. It had may 7 or 8 realy interesting encounters in the whole game.

BG1 definitely had too many trash mobs, but it had plenty of good encounters too. Obviously BG2 was the game that really excelled at encounter design.

And even if I agreed with you, the encounter design in PoE's first 5 hours is still worse than BG1's first 5 hours.

 

[pakoito]

I blame this balanced system, that makes even stuff like poison and web trivial, because nothing can be too powerful or require a hard counter. Even facing a powerful enemy mage is just "eh".

So it's another case of The Dark Souls 2 erino where fun was sacrificed to balance. Except in a single player game. Colour me surprised.

 

[Gentle Player]

I would call that "diverse" encounter design, not "good" encounter design. Though diverse encounter design is good too, of course.

But that doesn't mean "good" in the sense of having tactical depth. The high level mage assassin at the Friendly Arm Inn is different and scary and everything, but in the end, he's just one guy you have to stab to death before he kills you, same as a Hobgoblin. (I never saw the big deal about that particular encounter, personally. Seems like it's a traumatic event for lots of people though.)

You can't have "good" encounter design without it being "diverse". If it's not diverse, then every encounter plays the same way and it's not good. Though frankly the distinction serves little purpose in a PoE thread, since PoE's encounter design lacks both diversity and tactical depth.

Well, let's finish the game first and then talk about it, eh?

I played through BG and IWD just before this came out, and POE seems much more reminiscent of DA:O (though much better) than IE to me.

Why

I think the focus on activating attack abilities for all classes, rather than just spellcasters, and using them often, usually at least once per combat, rather than sparingly. Constant effect modal and passive abilities with average bonuses rather than tremendously powerful buff spells with limited use (ostensibly, anyway) and duration. Ability score ranks each giving a little +% bonus rather than aiming to reach certain breakpoints that could potentially make a huge difference. The Endurance mechanic (along with aforementioned on-use abilities that reset per encounter) meaning that tension is generally focused in a single instance of combat rather than on the attrition of several combats and exploration over a longer time-span (though of course PoE has limited tents, at least on hard, and health scores, so the latter aspect isn't ignored entirely). A lot of these things reminded me of DA:O, which I only played once, though perhaps it wasn't fair for me to make the comparison as I've just started Pillars.

 

[Infinitron]

'k.

The ability scores aren't really like Dragon Age's though. DA:O's attributes add absolute numbers to your derived stats, not percentages, and they also feature very important "breakpoints" in the form of talent prerequisites.

Not to mention the whole attribute inflation thing since they increase on every level-up

 

[Suicidal]

Too few unique encounters + most of the non-unique encounters being against trash mobs greatly decreases the enjoyment I'm getting out of combat, and when you add engagement onto it the whole thing feels like doing the exact same encounter over and over again, using the same tactics. I had enough of that in DA:O, thank you.

This is very worrisome. It's the reason I've grown to hate Dragon Age the more I played it (and because it had no other strengths to counterbalance the shittiness of its combat encounters).

How well, would you say, do the non-combat aspects of PoE compensate for this shit?