Personally, I think it's now safe to say Disco Elysium is better than Planescape: Torment.

[Ryan muller]

An rpg is all about flexibility to have control over your character's mentality and body

It's actually really cool that you can interpret everything as a permanent state of "combat" between your strengths (the aspects of yourself that you invested many points in), and your weaknesses (aspects you haven't invested in). The experience accumulated can result in those "aspects" becoming friendly. Which is, exactly, the gradual process of perfecting oneself in life. (or you can autistically increase your strengths, of course)

Looking at DE from this lens, it is a much better RPG than combatfags make it out to be. And probably better than P:T.

At the same time, however, it isn't an great RPG, simply because I haven't felt that I've ever learned anything valuable from DE, despite the increased personal reactivity. Whereas in P:T when I have the famous conversations with my previous incarnations, and deal with the Practical one, I can clearly see a difference between me at the start of the game, and me at the end of the game, by just debating about Morte. Not to mention the rest of the characters, and aspects of my character.

Bottom line, I think P:T is made as an educational tool. Whereas DE doesn't care what you take from it. And outside of the fun you have with Enola, I can't say the combat is a factor.






If anything, one would hope there are more DE's in the sense of the relationship between developers and experimentation. But DE doesn't feel better than P:T. And I hope I am being objective.

There is certainly a better climax at the end of planescape, but i cant see how this make DE a worse rpg, specially as i cant find anything quite like thought cabinets in any game and they are simply fascinating in characterizing your PC in an interesting way

 

[Delphik]

The real problem that nobody wants to mention is that it fundamentally lacks role playing.
I know this is a concept that's made fun of -- "haha you play the role of Mario so it's an RPG!" -- but the problem is right there in the joke: You must play Mario. And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.
In Planescape Torment you must always play The Nameless One, yes. But these are very clearly different in their expectations. To quote Avellone himself:

Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?” I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer

In DE, you are assuming a character with a very predefined role and are shackled to it. In my NHL example from the first page, it has this issue aswell where you must play as a hockey player. In many cases where you think "This isn't an RPG, but I can't place my finger quite on why", it likely comes back to this. Well, why isn't Borderelands an RPG? Because you must -- always, absolutely required to -- play a Vault Hunter with certain social and story expectations put upon the player that you aren't allowed to deviate from.
Consider Morrowind, where the strongest shackles placed upon you are never even confirmed to exist -- the game never tells you whether or not you're actually the Nerevarine.

This isn't to be confused with given a general purpose or a goal, but that you're given one and specifically required to go about it in a certain way that restricts the player's freedom to play the game he wants in an unreasonable manner within the confines of the game itself.

And, perhaps to some extent, this is an argument against many RPGs -- most typically ARPGs -- being considered cRPGs rather than their own separate but related genre. After all, what do Witcher 3 and Wizardry 7 really have in common? There's an interesting argument here for the first Witcher game because you have amnesia, and the lines definitely blur.

Harry has amnesia in DE either and the narrative used it as the initial push to the player to insert his moral philosophies and thoughts.

The problem with the "he has a pre determined past therefore it isnt an rpg" is that most eletronic rpgs have to rely on predetermined character backstories or professions anyways as they have to tie such character to the in going narrative.

In fo 2 you always would start as a tribal with limited knowledge on technology which had a hard relationship with your aunt.

In new vegas you always would nena courier with an specific job at delivering the platinum chip

In Baldurs gate you would always be Gorion's ward,etc..

An rpg is all about flexibility to have control over your character's mentality and body

And besides not having a combat system, DE is pretty reactive when it comes to that. You have the ability to solve quests by punching your way out of a situation, you can be a schizo cop that will talk to objects in order to solve problems, you can have extreme caution to absolutely anything to the point of paranoia,etc...

Your actions do affect the gameplay and how the characters will see you, those actions who can be a result of your dialogue choices, but mainly a simulation of your character sheet.

If not, because of how flexible DE's dialogue is its easier to roleplay a character than WIZ, since WIZ 6,7 and 8 mainly rely on your own thoughts because of how few actual dialogue choices there are on those games


Meanwhile i can literally run the entirety of DE as a fascist cop who kick the hell out of commies and keep bragging about how jewish culture destroyed revachol.

Thats an rpg

The cRPG where you play as a named character with a predetermined look and no control over how he looks, and also has a clear job title, just like how it is in Fallout 2 ofc.
I'll give up not being able to change the character in any way, shape or form and having a backstory but don't tell me my job title at the moment is X (detective)

No, but you have an aunt, is a tribal with limited knowledge who canonically cant know about science or economics in any deep way and must save your tribe regardless of your ethics.

Im new vegas you have a job tho, so technically it isnt an rpg anymore according to you?

When you wake up after being shot in the head you're not the courier anymore, the title is just a title and your current job isn't to deliver mail retard.

 

[Zombra]

When you wake up after being shot in the head you're not the courier anymore, the title is just a title and your current job isn't to deliver mail retard.

That's dumb as fuck and you could say the exact same thing about any game in the world. You aren't "really" Mario, you're just a guy who was called Mario in the past but now you can "really" be whoever you feel you are inside. Therefore all games are RPGs.

 

[Ryan muller]

The real problem that nobody wants to mention is that it fundamentally lacks role playing.
I know this is a concept that's made fun of -- "haha you play the role of Mario so it's an RPG!" -- but the problem is right there in the joke: You must play Mario. And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.
In Planescape Torment you must always play The Nameless One, yes. But these are very clearly different in their expectations. To quote Avellone himself:

Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?” I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer

In DE, you are assuming a character with a very predefined role and are shackled to it. In my NHL example from the first page, it has this issue aswell where you must play as a hockey player. In many cases where you think "This isn't an RPG, but I can't place my finger quite on why", it likely comes back to this. Well, why isn't Borderelands an RPG? Because you must -- always, absolutely required to -- play a Vault Hunter with certain social and story expectations put upon the player that you aren't allowed to deviate from.
Consider Morrowind, where the strongest shackles placed upon you are never even confirmed to exist -- the game never tells you whether or not you're actually the Nerevarine.

This isn't to be confused with given a general purpose or a goal, but that you're given one and specifically required to go about it in a certain way that restricts the player's freedom to play the game he wants in an unreasonable manner within the confines of the game itself.

And, perhaps to some extent, this is an argument against many RPGs -- most typically ARPGs -- being considered cRPGs rather than their own separate but related genre. After all, what do Witcher 3 and Wizardry 7 really have in common? There's an interesting argument here for the first Witcher game because you have amnesia, and the lines definitely blur.

Harry has amnesia in DE either and the narrative used it as the initial push to the player to insert his moral philosophies and thoughts.

The problem with the "he has a pre determined past therefore it isnt an rpg" is that most eletronic rpgs have to rely on predetermined character backstories or professions anyways as they have to tie such character to the in going narrative.

In fo 2 you always would start as a tribal with limited knowledge on technology which had a hard relationship with your aunt.

In new vegas you always would nena courier with an specific job at delivering the platinum chip

In Baldurs gate you would always be Gorion's ward,etc..

An rpg is all about flexibility to have control over your character's mentality and body

And besides not having a combat system, DE is pretty reactive when it comes to that. You have the ability to solve quests by punching your way out of a situation, you can be a schizo cop that will talk to objects in order to solve problems, you can have extreme caution to absolutely anything to the point of paranoia,etc...

Your actions do affect the gameplay and how the characters will see you, those actions who can be a result of your dialogue choices, but mainly a simulation of your character sheet.

If not, because of how flexible DE's dialogue is its easier to roleplay a character than WIZ, since WIZ 6,7 and 8 mainly rely on your own thoughts because of how few actual dialogue choices there are on those games


Meanwhile i can literally run the entirety of DE as a fascist cop who kick the hell out of commies and keep bragging about how jewish culture destroyed revachol.

Thats an rpg

The cRPG where you play as a named character with a predetermined look and no control over how he looks, and also has a clear job title, just like how it is in Fallout 2 ofc.
I'll give up not being able to change the character in any way, shape or form and having a backstory but don't tell me my job title at the moment is X (detective)

No, but you have an aunt, is a tribal with limited knowledge who canonically cant know about science or economics in any deep way and must save your tribe regardless of your ethics.

Im new vegas you have a job tho, so technically it isnt an rpg anymore according to you?

When you wake up after being shot in the head you're not the courier anymore, the title is just a title and your current job isn't to deliver mail retard.

The real problem that nobody wants to mention is that it fundamentally lacks role playing.
I know this is a concept that's made fun of -- "haha you play the role of Mario so it's an RPG!" -- but the problem is right there in the joke: You must play Mario. And in DE, you must play a detective. There is no other way to go about the game. You can be a shitty detective and different types of detective, but you are always(..eh..) a detective.
In Planescape Torment you must always play The Nameless One, yes. But these are very clearly different in their expectations. To quote Avellone himself:

Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?” I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer

In DE, you are assuming a character with a very predefined role and are shackled to it. In my NHL example from the first page, it has this issue aswell where you must play as a hockey player. In many cases where you think "This isn't an RPG, but I can't place my finger quite on why", it likely comes back to this. Well, why isn't Borderelands an RPG? Because you must -- always, absolutely required to -- play a Vault Hunter with certain social and story expectations put upon the player that you aren't allowed to deviate from.
Consider Morrowind, where the strongest shackles placed upon you are never even confirmed to exist -- the game never tells you whether or not you're actually the Nerevarine.

This isn't to be confused with given a general purpose or a goal, but that you're given one and specifically required to go about it in a certain way that restricts the player's freedom to play the game he wants in an unreasonable manner within the confines of the game itself.

And, perhaps to some extent, this is an argument against many RPGs -- most typically ARPGs -- being considered cRPGs rather than their own separate but related genre. After all, what do Witcher 3 and Wizardry 7 really have in common? There's an interesting argument here for the first Witcher game because you have amnesia, and the lines definitely blur.

Harry has amnesia in DE either and the narrative used it as the initial push to the player to insert his moral philosophies and thoughts.

The problem with the "he has a pre determined past therefore it isnt an rpg" is that most eletronic rpgs have to rely on predetermined character backstories or professions anyways as they have to tie such character to the in going narrative.

In fo 2 you always would start as a tribal with limited knowledge on technology which had a hard relationship with your aunt.

In new vegas you always would nena courier with an specific job at delivering the platinum chip

In Baldurs gate you would always be Gorion's ward,etc..

An rpg is all about flexibility to have control over your character's mentality and body

And besides not having a combat system, DE is pretty reactive when it comes to that. You have the ability to solve quests by punching your way out of a situation, you can be a schizo cop that will talk to objects in order to solve problems, you can have extreme caution to absolutely anything to the point of paranoia,etc...

Your actions do affect the gameplay and how the characters will see you, those actions who can be a result of your dialogue choices, but mainly a simulation of your character sheet.

If not, because of how flexible DE's dialogue is its easier to roleplay a character than WIZ, since WIZ 6,7 and 8 mainly rely on your own thoughts because of how few actual dialogue choices there are on those games


Meanwhile i can literally run the entirety of DE as a fascist cop who kick the hell out of commies and keep bragging about how jewish culture destroyed revachol.

Thats an rpg

The cRPG where you play as a named character with a predetermined look and no control over how he looks, and also has a clear job title, just like how it is in Fallout 2 ofc.
I'll give up not being able to change the character in any way, shape or form and having a backstory but don't tell me my job title at the moment is X (detective)

No, but you have an aunt, is a tribal with limited knowledge who canonically cant know about science or economics in any deep way and must save your tribe regardless of your ethics.

Im new vegas you have a job tho, so technically it isnt an rpg anymore according to you?

When you wake up after being shot in the head you're not the courier anymore, the title is just a title and your current job isn't to deliver mail retard.

BS, the main quest still ends up being about delivering the platinum chip, you know? The same garbage you should deliver regardless.

The best part? You cant stray from this path, you have to deal with the platinum chip and cant simply deny involvement in this conflict. Not to mention Ulysses that made bloody clear you ARE the courier regardless of what the player may think.

 

[Gromoer]

Both games are great.

Balancefag

 

[Sunri]

Both games are great.

Balancefag

piglet

 

[Vic]

I like PST more but DE has a unique setting which is always something. Still PST wins for me