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Percentage based damage reduction is AWFUL!!!

AW8

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire

You would obviously still have decreased mobility from wearing heavy armor. If Usain Bolt wore it, he'd finish last instead of first.
Even if it realistically boils down to "getting fatigued earlier" more than "suddenly slow as a snail", it's more easily gamified and telegraphed to players in the form of visibly decreased movement speed.
 

Norfleet

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You would obviously still have decreased mobility from wearing heavy armor. If Usain Bolt wore it, he'd finish last instead of first.
Well, sure, but that's because finish times in competitive runsmanship are differentiated by tenths of a second.

Even if it realistically boils down to "getting fatigued earlier" more than "suddenly slow as a snail", it's more easily gamified and telegraphed to players in the form of visibly decreased movement speed.
Honestly, carrying an additional 50 pounds around with you everywhere you go should be no stranger to the modern landwhale.
 

Ol' Willy

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Why have HPs at all? Shall we follow more simulationist approach like milsims do?

E.G., a character has limbs and organs - in fact, not very different from like it was modeled in Fallout. Arms, legs, head, eyes; each limb is divided into more damage zones.

Damage itself scales from minor - bruises and cuts; medium - fractures and punctures; hard - severe trauma or violent amputation.

Armor will act reducing the damage akin to Damage Reduction - like softening blows from fracture to a bruise; and act as Damage Threshold: meaning that you can't stab through a bulletproof vest with the shiv.

Damaged limb will have reduced functionality and severely damaged limb will have none at all.

Multiple damage types as well, like fire, electricity or cold.

This will work well in realistic, but roster based games like JA or X-COM; also may work in various fantasy settings where you would be able to heal various wounds with magick and shit.

This will solve a lot of problems and may make combat more interesting.

No more 1 HP characters fighting like no big deal and then suddenly dying from one sneeze.
Player's choice between armor piercing - more raw damage based on the enemy type.
More combat choices - break people's hands and finish them off later.
Enemies with weird anatomy: Centaurs from Fallout, four-armed mutants, mutants with doubled vital organs...
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
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Jun 7, 2020
Messages
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Neo-scavanger used a limb-based combat system, with blood level and pain instead of hp. It's not bad, but it skews the odds in favour of whoever manage to land the first hit,, because it will cause cripling pain to the opponent, who then get stunlocked 90% of the time.
 

Peachcurl

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With flat damage reduction, armor becomes worthless if you include ridiculous multipliers in everything.
Why would you not have a multiplier for flat DR armor?

And in this games, is not as if they are power fantasies. Your char is nothing, 100% of his power is in his gear.
That's not a distinction the players of these games make.


There is any gear farming cooldown managing generic wow clone with flat damage reduction?
Awfully specific question, innit?
 
Vatnik
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Why have HPs at all? Shall we follow more simulationist approach like milsims do?

E.G., a character has limbs and organs - in fact, not very different from like it was modeled in Fallout. Arms, legs, head, eyes; each limb is divided into more damage zones.

Damage itself scales from minor - bruises and cuts; medium - fractures and punctures; hard - severe trauma or violent amputation.

Armor will act reducing the damage akin to Damage Reduction - like softening blows from fracture to a bruise; and act as Damage Threshold: meaning that you can't stab through a bulletproof vest with the shiv.

Damaged limb will have reduced functionality and severely damaged limb will have none at all.

Multiple damage types as well, like fire, electricity or cold.

This will work well in realistic, but roster based games like JA or X-COM; also may work in various fantasy settings where you would be able to heal various wounds with magick and shit.

This will solve a lot of problems and may make combat more interesting.

No more 1 HP characters fighting like no big deal and then suddenly dying from one sneeze.
Player's choice between armor piercing - more raw damage based on the enemy type.
More combat choices - break people's hands and finish them off later.
Enemies with weird anatomy: Centaurs from Fallout, four-armed mutants, mutants with doubled vital organs...

Was thinking about this yesterday. You could have a "Resilience" stat, the higher it is the less likely incoming damage will cause a wound. So maybe 20 damage onto 11 Resilience character = twenty 1/11 chances of suffering a wound. And like you say wounds would be defined in terms of body location and damage type. Stamina could take the role of a depletable and refillable "health bar". And while we're at it there should be mechanics for morale and mental clarity too.
 

Ol' Willy

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Was thinking about this yesterday. You could have a "Resilience" stat, the higher it is the less likely incoming damage will cause a wound. So maybe 20 damage onto 11 Resilience character = twenty 1/11 chances of suffering a wound. And like you say wounds would be defined in terms of body location and damage type
If we talk realistic*, this makes no sense. Human is soft and this is same for most of the people. Your neck won't stop that axe no matter what.

If we talk fantasy, this is a very good idea. Different races with different "Resilience", E.G. elfs are squishy and ogres have skin thick as fuck.

* by realistic I mean games like JA or SS
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
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Messages
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Fuck realism. Realism - you hit your toe real good and can't do shit until you stop swearing. don't need this shit in my vidya.
Realism - here is your shovel, soldier, dig this trench for next 3 weeks, germans are coming. Then sit in the trench for next 3 weeks. Then artillery strike and game over.
 
Vatnik
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Was thinking about this yesterday. You could have a "Resilience" stat, the higher it is the less likely incoming damage will cause a wound. So maybe 20 damage onto 11 Resilience character = twenty 1/11 chances of suffering a wound. And like you say wounds would be defined in terms of body location and damage type
If we talk realistic*, this makes no sense. Human is soft and this is same for most of the people. Your neck won't stop that axe no matter what.

If we talk fantasy, this is a very good idea. Different races with different "Resilience", E.G. elfs are squishy and ogres have skin thick as fuck.

* by realistic I mean games like JA or SS
Well in that example with 20 and 11, you would only have a 15% chance of taking no wounds. And mere fleshwounds and bloodloss could be handled by stamina loss, which unlike wound would be guaranteed, in the system I'm considering.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,584
Really depends on how it fits into the rest of the game.

The HP bloat criticism is most relevant in games where characters gain significant HP with levels. If a character will get one-shotted without armor, it probably makes sense armor can significantly mitigate damage - unless the game is designed where a player should be able to get through combats without being hit at all (which is almost never the case).

Plenty of games differentiate damage reduction by damage type. Pretty much a norm to do it that way if the game bothers to have damage types in the first place.

Sense of progression is almost completely subjective and dependent on many factors. "Realistic" is 100% subjective and everyone has their own nonsensical standards on that one.
 

Cryomancer

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Glory to Ukraine
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Frostfell
Fuck realism. Realism - you hit your toe real good and can't do shit until you stop swearing. don't need this shit in my vidya.
Realism - here is your shovel, soldier, dig this trench for next 3 weeks, germans are coming. Then sit in the trench for next 3 weeks. Then artillery strike and game over.

What if you are the artillery operator that blow up the guy? hu3hu3h3u just kidding. There are great WW1 arcade games like BF1 and great more realistic WW1 games like Verdun

The HP bloat criticism is most relevant in games where characters gain significant HP with levels.

Yep. When gaining a level gives +10hp and +1 damage, it makes high level a slog. See Oblivion for eg. The problem is not hit points, is the application of hit points in many games.

And before anything, there are games which makes your hp hidden. Eg - Warthunder. How I know that my plane is "in low health"? Well, if there are a lot of large holes in my BF 110 wings, fire in a engine, oil and water leaking in another, and etc, I know that my plane is in "low health" and that even if I manage to retreat to the base, he will blow up while attempting to land.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
The HP bloat criticism is most relevant in games where characters gain significant HP with levels. If a character will get one-shotted without armor, it probably makes sense armor can significantly mitigate damage - unless the game is designed where a player should be able to get through combats without being hit at all (which is almost never the case).
Bloat is a criticism especially when hp bloat in addition to damage bloat and other stat bloat makes the game harder for a higher level character when compared to the game's difficulty with a lower level character or it just turns the game into a boring slog.
 

Harthwain

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Dec 13, 2019
Messages
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You would obviously still have decreased mobility from wearing heavy armor. If Usain Bolt wore it, he'd finish last instead of first.
Even if it realistically boils down to "getting fatigued earlier" more than "suddenly slow as a snail", it's more easily gamified and telegraphed to players in the form of visibly decreased movement speed.

I don't entirely agree. If combat requires stamina as a resource (no matter whether it's turn-based or real-time), then running out of stamina faster is going to be more significant penalty than a visibly decreased movement speed, meaning there is no real need to "gamify and telegraph" it any further by making the player move slower in it. All you really need is a description of what the armor does.
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
And it means that low-level armor will give you something like -10% damage, which really isn't enough for the player to even notice. So it's not until you get pretty far into the game before you find armor that you even care about.
Nothing quite like equipping shoes that give 3% damage reduction while enemies hit you for 10 damage. The whole thing is always fucked up and makes no sense. The low level armor barely mitigates any damage in these kind of systems due to the way devs always balance them.
 

AW8

Arcane
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North of Poland
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Well, sure, but that's because finish times in competitive runsmanship are differentiated by tenths of a second.
100 or 200 meters are extreme examples, but at longer distances the effect on Bolt would be even worse. That was my point, while it's a myth that plate armor almost makes you immobile we shouldn't go to the other extreme and claim that it's hardly felt at all.

I don't entirely agree. If combat requires stamina as a resource (no matter whether it's turn-based or real-time), then running out of stamina faster is going to be more significant penalty than a visibly decreased movement speed, meaning there is no real need to "gamify and telegraph" it any further by making the player move slower in it. All you really need is a description of what the armor does.
If movement is super important to the game, then movement speed might be more important than stamina. Depends on the game - the hypothetical one you describe sounds like a rather realistic fighting simulator, and I agree that a penalty to movement speed would be less significant if every stamina point counts.

But for most games, I do believe it's easier for the player to notice a slower movement speed than an increased stamina drain. Probably because you're constantly holding down movement keys, while you only occasionally perform actions that drain stamina, even in combat.

And there are more cumbersome elements to wearing heavy armor - climbing is harder, any acrobatic action is harder, squeezing through tight spaces is harder, putting it on in the first place is a pain etc. Those who could afford it wore it anyway because in real life, DT trumps everything else and no one wants to risk being a glass cannon. But in games that allow you to be a glass cannon, it's easier to just combine those drawbacks and present them as visibly decreased movement speed. Even better if you add in exaggerated metallic footsteps, to sell the idea that you've sacrificed mobility to become a walking tank.

It's like giving daggers a backstab bonus. It's not realistic, but it's a simplication and it makes for fun gameplay.
 

Hassar

Scholar
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
208
Why have HPs at all? Shall we follow more simulationist approach like milsims do?

E.G., a character has limbs and organs - in fact, not very different from like it was modeled in Fallout. Arms, legs, head, eyes; each limb is divided into more damage zones.

Damage itself scales from minor - bruises and cuts; medium - fractures and punctures; hard - severe trauma or violent amputation.

Armor will act reducing the damage akin to Damage Reduction - like softening blows from fracture to a bruise; and act as Damage Threshold: meaning that you can't stab through a bulletproof vest with the shiv.

Damaged limb will have reduced functionality and severely damaged limb will have none at all.

Multiple damage types as well, like fire, electricity or cold.

This will work well in realistic, but roster based games like JA or X-COM; also may work in various fantasy settings where you would be able to heal various wounds with magick and shit.

This will solve a lot of problems and may make combat more interesting.

No more 1 HP characters fighting like no big deal and then suddenly dying from one sneeze.
Player's choice between armor piercing - more raw damage based on the enemy type.
More combat choices - break people's hands and finish them off later.
Enemies with weird anatomy: Centaurs from Fallout, four-armed mutants, mutants with doubled vital organs...

There was a Multi User Dungeon (MUD) with those features and “zones” around each character’s body to simulate different attack angles. Pretty impressive for a text-based free game.

But, yeah, designers generally abstract away a lot and don’t seem to stop to think about the hardware and software limitations that made the abstractions they were raised with acceptable. JRPGs still heavily use the “separate screen for battle with hp/mp” resource model even though the capability to integrate story and gameworld interaction no longer requires limiting the player’s primary interaction to combat and combat screens.

I think games allowing for one hit kills, limb damage, and varying degrees of wounds will generally be more interesting. Even “Earthbound”’s system - essentially hp/combat screen-based - was more exciting than most other more mainstream games because of that quirk where health damage wasn’t burst but gradual, so a character taking a lethal/critical hit would slowly sink to the ground rather than just a sudden loss of hp. That transformed standard, clunky RP encounters to a situation where a player internalized the pace of combat because the faster they got a healing skill/item out or selected a life-giving item, the faster the danger status would be negated.

A system where a warrior with multiple weapons would have to switch through various tools in their arsenal depending on the situation would be interesting. Getting wounded in an arm, so switching to a single-hand firearm because the swordarm is injured while slowly backing away from an enemy with your front to them because your rear armor is compromised would put more emphasis on the tension of combat than most systems.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Imagine power armor from fallout universe. How a .22 LR hollow point can deal any damage to it? Arrows vs armor, or the arrow has sufficient power to pierce(and hit in a adequated angle) it or not. The idea that a plate armor would be equally effective vs a children's toy bow or vs a siege ballista with bodkin arrow and would just reduce the poison and piercing damage by X is ridiculous.

Even worse: percentage based damage reduction implies that your armor is BETTER at blocking high damage weapons than low damage weapons.

???

A rusty dagger that does 5 damage get 1 damage point blocked.
A bigass armor-crushing warhammer that does 50 damage gets 10 damage points blocked.

How the fuck is it that the armor manages to absorb more damage from a heavy armor-piercing fuckoff weapon than from a piece of shit looted from a trash bin?
It's not just the problem of low damage weapons managing to get some damage through high tier armor, the real problem is that better weapons get more of their damage soaked up, which is completely illogical and retarded.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

You would obviously still have decreased mobility from wearing heavy armor. If Usain Bolt wore it, he'd finish last instead of first.
Even if it realistically boils down to "getting fatigued earlier" more than "suddenly slow as a snail", it's more easily gamified and telegraphed to players in the form of visibly decreased movement speed.


What about introducing fatigue systems then that make attrition actually matter? Morrowind kinda used fatigue as an important element. It would work even better in a turn based tactical RPG... like Battle Brothers, for example. There, fatigue is very important.
 
Joined
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Percentage based is exactly how lead or other materials act as barriers for photons, electron beams, cosmic rays, etc., so it makes sense to use a flat percentage damage reduction depending on what the mechanic is trying to represent.
 

Reinhardt

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RPGs are about full party creation and tb combat, not this gay shit with single character twitching. No wonder codex is in decline.
 
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OP is wrong and gay, percentage based damage reduction (or increase) is one of many damage mitigation tools that should be considered. No, having 50% damage reduction against one element is not the same as having double hit points, unless you are only ever attacked with that element. Additionally, those percentages can be modified by other things, like special attacks or passives or what have you, that apply a percentage reduction of the percentage reduction, or a flat change to damage reduction.


It's like saying "A programmer should never use 16 bit integers". It's not a good idea to only use 16 bit integers, but sometimes they're the right tool for the job.
 

Lurker47

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Percentage reduction also makes healing more effective and encourages threat/tanking mechanics.
Which is imo a lot better than "just do more damage lmao" that most games with a holy trinity fall into.

"reduce damage by 5% but move 5% slower" - or worse, "reduce damage by 5%, with no downsides" - then I don't really see much point.


Videogames are videogames. I was basically just going to say what AW8 did.

I've thought a bit about RPG systems where every stat has both and positive and negative effect as it increases. In an ARPG, I think one option would outclass every other (speed) just because of how those games tend to play, so I think you'd need to make these qualities more abstract to keep some reasonable level of viable builds (this is less readable though and would probably cost widespread appeal.)
TB RPG's don't run into the exact same problem but it is kind of similar. In TB RPG's, I think the best stats would depend very heavily on specific encounters or bosses or whatever and it doesn't seem very plausible for a game to be so meticulously crafted that every option has roughly even value. Moreover, how would it be engaging on either end? If you're statted for a fight, you can basically cheese them and if not, you run away if you can? Or you go through an extremely grueling fight.

To tie this back into the general problem of armor types and calculations, it runs into both of the aforementioned problems. When you have the option to have either of the stats, one is usually far more advantageous (with percentage, it's usually because of numbers bloat while flat is usually based in it better fitting the game, I feel) and it creates iffy balance with encounter design. The latter is something most people can easily brush away like "bringing a fire wizard to fight a magma golem" but unlike being a fire wizard, there's no real inherent playstyle to being statted for percentage or flat reduction (ideally, a fire wizard should have a different playstyle to an ice wizard and not just being a different type but this isn't always the case.)

Something I haven't seen anyone else bring up is that different damage reduction and penetration mechanics fit different class fantasies even if the ludonarrative implications are a bit silly. Flat penetration for assassins, flat reduction for squishies, percentage reduction and penetration for tanks. So these kinds of stats are class-restricted or role-retricted (to the holy trinity.)
A couple of things should be noted though- no ability should ever just do something on a percentage alone because that's a nightmare to deal with balance-wise, at most it can be a flat damage/heal/whatever with a low percentage modifier.
Percentages should be kept at a "reasonable range" (let's say 5-25%, for example.) This makes percentage reduction/penetration weak in the early-game but that's an important part of the progression curve in typical RPG's, not a design deficit. Tanks *should* be weak in the early game, otherwise most of the challenge goes straight out the window. Early levels are feast-or-famine most of the time, tanking isn't and shouldn't be a factor. If you have early game abilities with percentages that have a real influence, it will quickly balloon out of control (unless you do the incredibly unintuitive solution of it being a percentage that decreases with level but then it might as well be a flat increase.)

Both of these apply to the next proposed solution: have one form of damage reduction be supplementary to the other. The original Fallouts are the closest example I can think of (even though they're not derived from the same base stat), regardless, it stands that if you have flat reduction and percentage reduction on armor, flat reduction should probably be applied first as to not make percentage reduction disproportionately useful (unlike in New Vegas.) While I'm one of the people who'd want both to be in the game because I like playing around with numbers, it seems very hard to make work right and almost seems like it's more trouble then it's worth.
If you want both in some form, I'd pick flat damage reduction (I think percent based reduction, almost by necessity, needs to be more of a supplementary mechanic) and have some percent based reduction on attacks past the damage threshold at different tiers, have some stance-dancing between percentage or damage threshold, or have "blocking" an attack make it reduce attacks by a percentage based on your damage threshold at the loss of the damage threshold functionality (you take less damage from big attacks but more damage from attacks under your damage threshold because you didn't outright block them.) I think systems like these avoid the problems of "problem 2" by avoiding the problems of itemization but still presenting the same kinds of choices- however, it's more involving in battle-by-battle decision making as opposed to win-or-lose scenarios based entirely in character building.
 
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Salvo

Arcane
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Mar 6, 2017
Messages
1,414
why not both like in underrail?
Stoneshard also does it pretty well with flat reduction and different %s, like heavy armor being better against slashing and piercing than lighter
 

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