Editorial Penny Arcade Disses Troika

[Saint_Proverbius]

Bullshit. Excuses. Companies with their own PR/Marketing Department handle those on their own, i.e. Bioware.

Troika had no marketing department, hence they are gone.

And you're an idiot. I've been doing this long enough to know what hoops I have to jump through to get interviews.

 

[Reklar]

Bullshit. Excuses. Companies with their own PR/Marketing Department handle those on their own, i.e. Bioware.

Troika had no marketing department, hence they are gone.

And you're an idiot. I've been doing this long enough to know what hoops I have to jump through to get interviews.

Not to mention comparing Bioware, a developer that has been around for over a decade and has had several high-selling titles, can afford a marketing department while Troika never could. Small developers, unless they have incredible financial backing from the start, aren't likely to have a marketing department.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Greatatlantic]

Yeah, I think the vast majority of the marketing burden does fall upon publishers. That is actually one of the benefits of publishers, they have well oiled marketing departments and methods. Pick almost any developers website and compare it to almost any publishers website, you'll quite the difference. Bioware is one of the few exceptions.

If you want me to name one reason Bloodlines didn't sell like Diablo, I'll point out the website. I think going entirely with the java/flash/whatever approach didn't sell people to the game. Of course, had Activision taken out full pages adds for Bloodlines in a lot of magazines, it would have sold better. Yet, I'm sure they were doing cost analysis and decided to put their money in advertising titles like Spiderman.

I also think being released the same year as Half Life 2, World of Warcraft and the score of other big name titles didn't help things. Editors can only hype so many games, no matter how deserving a game might be. Plus, it would appear the American SP PC RPG is dying, if not dead. If Bloodlines really didn't make that big of an impression, then I think we will be limited to cross platform games and excuses to mod like Neverwinter Nights.

 

[Volourn]

"Not to mention comparing Bioware, a developer that has been around for over a decade and has had several high-selling titles, can afford a marketing department while Troika never could. Small developers, unless they have incredible financial backing from the start, aren't likely to have a marketing department."

You are the idiot. Bioware has beena round for 10 years. they just celebrated their 10th anniversary, in fact. Troika has been around for 7 years. Troika also had a hell of lot more game devlopment experience and a lot of more contacts in the business as well when they started. Stop making bullshit exuses.

Game. set. match.

 

[Greatatlantic]

You are the idiot. Bioware has beena round for 10 years. they just celebrated their 10th anniversary, in fact. Troika has been around for 7 years. Troika also had a hell of lot more game devlopment experience and a lot of more contacts in the business as well when they started. Stop making bullshit exuses.

Game. set. match.

I think I've caught on to your style of arguing. First, name call. Second, state some facts that may or may not contradict somebody else's argument. Third, call out the other person for being shady. Of course, that is just my humble observation.

To say Troika is almost as old as Bioware or that they had more contacts when they started may or may not be relevant to the stream of events that lead to their current situations. Namely, Bioware had some big sellers, and just as the market was abadoning small staff SP RPGs in favor of the big budget, look at the bling-bling, market-hype monster RPGs like KotOR and MMOs. When Aracanum was released in 2001, I think it was the last of its kind. I think Bioware and Betheseda are in such a good position as they are, by using the resources from previous successes to cash in on multi-platform releases. Troika never really had that open the door success. When Arcanum was released the market was already stacked big time against that type of game. They enjoyed some minor success with ToEE, but Atari set that one up for disaster none the less. Their best chance, Bloodlines, appears to have been overshadowed by other much better advertised titles like Half Life 2 and World of Warcraft. To say it was all Troika's fault might be true in a strictly self-determinist point of view. But I always thought self determinists were full of hot air.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"Not to mention comparing Bioware, a developer that has been around for over a decade and has had several high-selling titles, can afford a marketing department while Troika never could. Small developers, unless they have incredible financial backing from the start, aren't likely to have a marketing department."

You are the idiot. Bioware has beena round for 10 years. they just celebrated their 10th anniversary, in fact. Troika has been around for 7 years. Troika also had a hell of lot more game devlopment experience and a lot of more contacts in the business as well when they started. Stop making bullshit exuses.

Game. set. match.

When you were psuedo-quoting that paragraph, did you miss that underlined bit, Volourn? BioWare has had financial backing and a lot of it. They were self producing NeverWinter Nights shortly after they were founded.

 

[Greatatlantic]

When you were psuedo-quoting that paragraph, did you miss that underlined bit, Volourn? BioWare has had financial backing and a lot of it. They were self producing NeverWinter Nights shortly after they were founded.

Wow, I didn't know that when I posted earlier. Self financing NWN? Yeah, having a lot of money from the get go makes it pretty easy to make money, if you know what you are doing. Contacts...money...contacts...money, hmm... I think having moneyd will get you a lot farther in an industry where everyone seems to know everyone.

 

[Shagnak]

blah...
Game. set. match.

I think I've caught on to your style of arguing. First, name call. Second, state some facts that may or may not contradict somebody else's argument. Third, call out the other person for being shady. Of course, that is just my humble observation.

And not to forget: ending the argument with a definitive statement that he has won/finished the argument, when, in fact, there still seems to be a lot left in it.

 

[Volourn]

Keep spinning your wheels all you wnat. The duration of their existences is about the same. Troika had the experience edge yet gaffawed anyways. It seems to me from what you are saying is that when the Evil Doctors tm came into the business; they came in intelligently and prepared while after Cain and Co. ran from Interplay; they were so desperate to start their new company and so didn't think things through. Once again, this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Troika's current predicament is their own doing. Thanks, for once again, proving the point.

BIO is a healthy developer juggernault because they know what theya r edoing.

Troika is crahsing and burning because they simply do not.

Anymore ways for you to bury Troika for me?


"I think I've caught on to your style of arguing. First, name call. Second, state some facts that may or may not contradict somebody else's argument. Third, call out the other person for being shady. Of course, that is just my humble observation.



And not to forget: ending the argument with a definitive statement that he has won/finished the argument, when, in fact, there still seems to be a lot left in it."


Cool, ain't it?

 

[Greatatlantic]

Volourn said, " A troika is a Russian word. I just said something. Therefore, it is definitive proof that Troika problems are entirely their own. Bioware is a great developer, since they are successful."

Meanwhile in the other world known as reality... To say Troika's troubles are entirely their own doing is a bit juvenille. They had limited resources, very limited for a start up. As such, they took what they could get and still managed to do great things. While I have noticed a reductionist view of Troika's games on this forum, I'm still of the mind they were great RPGs. They pushed the envelope of the genre and gave the fans something to appreciate.

As for Bioware, I get the feeling they will stop doing PC only releasesin the near future. The market has seemed to turned against SP RPGs, stateside anyways. Europe seems to have more going on in this deparment. Maybe after the MMO craze dies down more publishers will be willing to work with SP RPGs. In the meanwhile, you have Bioware and Beth who self-finance (IIRC). Maybe Obsidian will have better luck, but right now there only projects are very well established franchises inherited from Bioware when they didn't want to deal with other's intellectual property.

 

[Volourn]

"They had limited resources, very limited for a start up."

Waaa.. Go cry me a river. If they didn't have the cashs; they should have stuck with share ware games and stop pretending theyw ere one of the big boys getting big licenses.


"As for Bioware, I get the feeling they will stop doing PC only releasesin the near future."

Proof? Dragon Age kinda blows that outa the water. All of BIO's games are SP - even NWN had full fledge SP games. KOTOR was only SP. JE is SP only though it is an action rpg much like Vampire. DA while it comes with MP capability is also SP.

Nice try though.

 

[Reklar]

"Not to mention comparing Bioware, a developer that has been around for over a decade and has had several high-selling titles, can afford a marketing department while Troika never could. Small developers, unless they have incredible financial backing from the start, aren't likely to have a marketing department."

You are the idiot. Bioware has beena round for 10 years. they just celebrated their 10th anniversary, in fact. Troika has been around for 7 years. Troika also had a hell of lot more game devlopment experience and a lot of more contacts in the business as well when they started. Stop making bullshit exuses.

Game. set. match.

I suppose I don't really need to reply since Saint_Proverbius and Greatatlantic have done so already, but I will anyway just because it's fun. I stand corrected on BioWare's longevity and I'll admit I should have verified the date of their founding instead of relying on memory. As for Troika having more contacts and development experience than BioWare, I cannot directly comment on that since I don't know the history or people of either company very well because it's not terribly important to me, but I admit it seems likely that Troika had the advantage in game developement experience initially. However, having contacts in the industry does not necessarily equate to cash on hand when you are starting or operating a company, especially when the bottom falls out of the technology and financial industry before your first product reaches the market. More importantly though, and I will ask you since you seem to know BioWare's history better than most and I can't find mention of it on their website, did BioWare have a marketing department when they were founded? This was my primary point and I don't see a reply to it from you or anyone else, so I remain curious.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Sol Invictus]

Sometimes, its just a waste of mental energy to keep track of my stance on whatever issues I've participated in, especially when it's the fucking internet and I don't really give a shit. Call me whimsical or whatever (OMG FLIP FLOP!11!1 Yeah, we fucking get it already.), but them's the breaks. I just like playing a Devil's Advocate too much for my own good.

...waits for someone to take the bait. (OMG FLIP FLOP!)

 

[jiujitsu]

OMG FLIP FLOP!

 

[Greatatlantic]

Proof? Dragon Age kinda blows that outa the water. All of BIO's games are SP - even NWN had full fledge SP games. KOTOR was only SP. JE is SP only though it is an action rpg much like Vampire. DA while it comes with MP capability is also SP.

Nice try though.

Jade Empire is Xbox exclusive, even if it is later released on PC it would prove my point. When I said near future, I meant right after Dragon Age doesn't sell well. I'd like to be wrong, and that all my gloom and doom is just a temporary lapse due to the trendy MMOs. I mean, being the only game in the market, besides Beth or Obsidian, is a nice set up, but if it Bioware can make a lot more money releasing games for Xbox and PC, they will do so. Furthermore, since the Xbox market is much larger, which audience do they concentrate at selling the game to? See where I am coming from? Sure, they have Dragon Age on the table right now, but I'm thinking it will be the last in a long time.

I hate to see the day when fans of the genre have to wait a year or more to get a single player, non-action RPG for their computers. By non-action I mean the Diablo clones.

 

[Sol Invictus]

What do you mean Dragon Age won't sell well? It's probably be the next best selling RPG on the PC.

 

[Greatatlantic]

What do you mean Dragon Age won't sell well? It's probably be the next best selling RPG on the PC.

Maybe, maybe not. Even if it is the next best selling RPG on the PC, thats not saying much, is it? Especially considering the argument I put forward about consoles releases being more money. So, Bioware confronted with the opportunity to make money (maybe) or a lot of money (assuredly) which do they take? I'm just looking at the recent sales figures, and there seems to be little place for SP PC only RPGs. Strategy games seem to be selling well, along with simulation games, and anything with a popular childrens' show tie-in. RPGs, those aren't moving, enough.

Oh, well. I never did like their SP campaigns anyways, I just played them because so little is on the market and the alternative was playing another game of Morrowind(maybe actually finishing for once). Back to playing Bloodlines for the 80th time, I guess.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Console releases don't always make more money than PC releases. Just take a look at Half Life 2, World of Warcraft, and the Sims series. The only game that managed to outsell HL2 was Halo 2, and that was because of the amount of money Microsoft spent on the launch, and on the TV ads.

There's also a lot less games in the PC market, most of which aren't even good games. If they make little money is because they don't deserve money. Plenty of console titles get released and make little money, too. Just being console releases doesn't guarantee them good sales. Case in point: FOBOS, the Might & Magic action game, RA Salvatore's D&D game, etc.

Bioware has the opportunity to make money in a niche market that they alone are profiting the most from: PC CRPGs. Why would they abandon this market for the sake of risking it with the oversaturated console RPG market? PC CRPGs are a surefire hit for Bioware just as the FPS market is a surefire hit for Valve. They would not abandon it even if they can make more money with console games (which all seem to be ported to the PC anyhow). Most single player PC CRPGs don't sell because they are unknown, made by unknown developers, or simply aren't worth playing. Bioware has a reputation in the PC CRPG market, and they intend to capitalize on it. When was the last time a Bioware PC CRPG sold poorly?

 

[Seven]

Meanwhile in the other world known as reality...

You'll fit in great here. I fell on my ass laughing when I read that.

On related news, it's almost the end of the month and there's been no official word yet: Is this bad or good?

 

[Fez]

*snip*

I thought the huge growth of the console market meant it was now financially more significant? A lot of the publishers and developers seem to think so. Though it must have a lot more competition. Any figures on it? I don't like relying on presumptions on this.

The success of companies like Bioware and Valve do show that the PC market is still worthwhile.

Am I the only one who has flashbacks to the same arguments over the Amiga and it's gaming future?

 

[Greatatlantic]

I thought the huge growth of the console market meant it was now financially more significant? A lot of the publishers and developers seem to think so. Though it must have a lot more competition. Any figures on it? I don't like relying on presumptions on this.

I don't have any industry wide statements, though I'm sure somewhere there is something to that effect. I do have Activision's third quarter releases.

http://investor.activision.com/ReleaseD ... eID=155092

Just scroll down to where they report their income. Just doing the math in my head, consoles titles made Activision 4 to 6 times as much money. This is in the year where they released Doom 3, Rome: Total War, Bloodlines, and Call of Duty (a perennial title on any PC top 10 list). I mean, if the only way to make more money in the PC market is have the 2 or 3 monster hits of the year, thats not the best incentive to stay in the game. Now, PC games aren't going to vanich, and it is very true that the competition in consoles is tighter for a top 10 game. There is also a lot more room for niches, usually. Larger markets means more niches to sell a game to. Plus, pirating is much less of a concern, and you don't have to worry about a ton of angry emails from people who didn't check to see if they met the system requirements.

I'm not saying PC games are a lost cause, just that SP RPG games are going to be, unless a developer is willing and able to self finance, because publishers don't want to throw money away on less profitable projects. However, such developers share the same profit outlooks as publishers. So, I suspect Bioware will be change their business focus to releasing console RPGs with a PC port. Of course, if I could predict the market that well I'd be living in a Manhattan penthouse. What I say is strictly one informed gamers guess at the industry.

 

[Fez]

In a worst case scenario we can at least fall back on companies like Spiderweb and Stardock. I don't really mind what I play my games on though, only that the games are the type I want.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I thought the huge growth of the console market meant it was now financially more significant? A lot of the publishers and developers seem to think so. Though it must have a lot more competition. Any figures on it? I don't like relying on presumptions on this.

They would be wrong in their presumptions, of course. It drove New World Computing and Interplay out of business for thinking they could keep up with all the competition by releasing unoriginal, dumbed down, uncompetitive and incredibly 'generic' console products. This retarded 'everything sells on the console no matter what it is' mentality also drove Acclaim out of business, in spite of their heavy and sometimes very oddball marketing ethics.

The success of companies like Bioware and Valve do show that the PC market is still worthwhile.

You would be right in this, of course.

The success of Halo 2 can only be attributed to the quality of the game, and Microsoft's persistence with the product, and not with any such nonsense logic as "console games naturally sell better." Metroid Prime 3 and all of the other 'hyped' console titles didn't sell anywhere near as well as Sims 2, Doom 3 or Half Life 2.

 

[Fez]

I remember Halo being described as the XBox's "killer app", so it's little wonder that MS would make sure that it was polished and advertised well. The sequel got the same treatment.

Perhaps this will just be a temporary fluctuation in development trends, like the current fascination with all things MMOG.

 

[Greatatlantic]

The success of Halo 2 can only be attributed to the quality of the game, and Microsoft's persistence with the product, and not with any such nonsense logic as "console games naturally sell better." Metroid Prime 3 and all of the other 'hyped' console titles didn't sell anywhere near as well as Sims 2, Doom 3 or Half Life 2.

Oh, yeah. Bad games, and I do mean really bad games, won't sell anywhere. Unless those bad games are the intellectual property of a movie, a la Spiderman or Shreck. Last year there was one and only one big name SP RPG released last year, Bloodlines. There were a few other imports, but nothing major. I would love to see sales figures for that game and compare it to the RPGs released for any console. I'm willing to bet Bloodlines didn't sell half as well as comparable titles, despite having an almost monopoly on the market this year.

I'm not claiming PC games aren't profitable or that PC gaming will die, just that SP RPGs with out a multiplatform release in North America are going bye bye. It is a very limited thesis, but the category I just described is the one Troika fell into. I guess that time will tell if I'm right. Hopefully no, but I just interpret what I see.

In other news, did you hear that Sudeki is going to be imported to the PC? I can hardly wait!