Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

I allow you to be unfair to the game when she is unfair to you. She can take it.

Fair enough, but I still prefer overcoming a challenge by using the tools available to me in some strategic way, rather than just abusing Owlcat's lazy programming.

Seems like Devarra was abusing you rather than vice versa. Worry less about cheese (there really isn’t much) and more about finding what works.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I think it's really worth getting Rupture Restraints and Last Stand on anyone you want to get into melee with regularly. I tend to pick them as the first two Mythic choices on Greybor, Regil, Cam, and Seelah.

In a recent playthrough, Seelah took over 700 damage in a round from a certain end-game boss with Last Stand (enough to kill her 3 times over), but still stood there and stopped it from advancing so the rest of my party could kill it; it was a really cool moment and exactly how I imagine Paladin should behave.

 

[Lambach]

Like Hargulka it’s one of those I encounters designed to get you out of your comfort zone (if that zone is going to get you into trouble later - Hargulka does that for Zombie Giants, Devarra for big Demons/Dragons to come) and get your to explore some of the mechanics you may have neglected.

Poor comparison, IMHO. Hargulka had one glaring, obvious weakness: he was a fucking retard, and as such, you could naturally assume he had piss-poor Will Saves that you could exploit.

What's the Dragon's glaring weakness? 50% to Cold? In order to exploit that weakness, you'd have to go out of your way to pick the one specific Cold-related Spell that ignores Spell Resistance, then you'd have to build your character around picking all the right Metamagic Feats to empower that one Spell enough so that it does substantial damage to the Dragon. Not similar at all.

 

[Humbaba]

The long and short of it is, if your build is good, you won't have much of an issue in any combat encounter. On core at least.

What's a good build? Anything that prioritises single target burst damage. Forget about AoE. Why? Aside from the combat system HEAVILY rewarding ganging up on a single enemy, there's the general fact that 10 enemies and 50% health are still as dangerous as 10 enemies at 100% health, while 9 enemies at 100% are less dangerous. You can forget about becoming tanky too. Both HP and AC are huge memes and aren't worth shit, when enemies have such absurdly high hit bonuses and can crit you for 300+ damage.

In addition, prolonging encounters is how you lose them. Every round that passes increases the chance of the enemy landing a crit, getting off a decisive spell etc. If you can't put the enemy away quickly, they will put you away instead. Glass cannon builds are the way to go, especially with things like Last Stand existing, which heavily mitigates a subpar AC or health pool. Even Diehard works pretty well.

The dragon encounter showcases this very well. Even with the obvious precautions and buffs in place, they won't do you much good, if you drag out the fight for too long, because the dragon will melt you with the thousands of attacks/round you already mentioned and burn your energy protection. The trick is to not let it even get that far. So if your PC or anyone else in your party is not a DPS powerhouse and you didn't bring along Ember to nuke the dragon with touch AC rays, you'll have a bad time.

Ideally, you have your tank drawing aggro (somewhat AI dependent, may not work every time, especially with Greybor leading the charge) and you spread out your party around the dragon so the breath weapon won't hit all your guys at once. Even so, the fire will do enough damage to burn the protection, so be prepared to apply it again mid fight. If all goes well, the dragon will beat on your tank (who might die in the process but who cares), while your glass cannon PC is beating the shit out of her (don't forget to turn off power attack) and your wizard is throwing out ray after ray. Greybor is somewhat deficient at that point in the game because he won't have a good Ugrosh yet, and if he dies it's game over so it's best to have him run his squishy ass away.

If you have to resort to summons bodyblocking or any other cheesy strats, then I'm afraid your build's at fault. Case in point: on my first playthrough, I rolled a cleave-focussed cavalier. He was shit and I had a rough time. Second time around, I went with a vital strike focussed Deliverer and kicked the game's ass without much trouble at all. Third time was even easier, with a crit focussed arcane Bloodrager, who in addition worshipped Gorum and got a huge mega buff at the dragon fight, which was rad. That one could even go 1v1 with the Filet Man and Khorramzade with all the Azata stuff he was getting. All of this was on core btw. You don't even need to autistically crunch numbers, do class dips or any major optimisation to succeed, just prioritise damage and you're good. I never dual classed in my life, until my deliverer went Legend and I put 20 more levels into Mutation Warrior. I haven't rolled a mage so I can't give you much advice there, but try to get as many touch AC spells as you can, they'll be what'll kill bosses.

 

[Desiderius]

Mythic abilities are your scarcest resource, and both Seelah and Greybor have some great ones. Last Stand is good on Unfair. For other difficulties it shouldn’t come up much. Rupture is a solid choice once they’ve got the ones that help their classes shine.

 

[Desiderius]

Like Hargulka it’s one of those I encounters designed to get you out of your comfort zone (if that zone is going to get you into trouble later - Hargulka does that for Zombie Giants, Devarra for big Demons/Dragons to come) and get your to explore some of the mechanics you may have neglected.

Poor comparison, IMHO. Hargulka had one glaring, obvious weakness: he was a fucking retard, and as such, you could naturally assume he had piss-poor Will Saves that you could exploit.

What's the Dragon's glaring weakness? 50% to Cold? In order to exploit that weakness, you'd have to go out of your way to pick the one specific Cold-related Spell that ignores Spell Resistance, then you'd have to build your character around picking all the right Metamagic Feats to empower that one Spell enough so that it does substantial damage to the Dragon. Not similar at all.

Hargulka’s weakest save is Reflex. That’s the trick - his Will is pretty buffed and his weapon makes him immune to the common spells that target Will.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

 

[Desiderius]

Like Hargulka it’s one of those I encounters designed to get you out of your comfort zone (if that zone is going to get you into trouble later - Hargulka does that for Zombie Giants, Devarra for big Demons/Dragons to come) and get your to explore some of the mechanics you may have neglected.

Poor comparison, IMHO. Hargulka had one glaring, obvious weakness: he was a fucking retard, and as such, you could naturally assume he had piss-poor Will Saves that you could exploit.

What's the Dragon's glaring weakness? 50% to Cold? In order to exploit that weakness, you'd have to go out of your way to pick the one specific Cold-related Spell that ignores Spell Resistance, then you'd have to build your character around picking all the right Metamagic Feats to empower that one Spell enough so that it does substantial damage to the Dragon. Not similar at all.

You’d think a Sorc would be familiar with that one spell lol *because it bypasses SR* and you get a shit-ton of first level casts. As for Meta, yeah that’s why I like non-spontaneous casters. Why are you guys all so in love with Sorc?

In any case you’ve got Maximize Rod from Zach’s lair and Devarra’s Touch AC is like 7. Should always have ways to target Touch in any case.

 

[Lambach]

Hargulka’s weakest save is Reflex. That’s the trick - his Will is pretty buffed and his weapon makes him immune to the common spells that target Will.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You sure about that? Been a while since I played it last, but I seem to remember his special stats and weapon gave him immunity to things that would typically target Reflex (e.g. his Mallet gives him Freedom of Movement). Will-wise, he's as defenseless as a newborn kitten.

The Wiki seems to confirm:

 

[Desiderius]

Well I’m almost to Hargulka in my P:K playthrough. We’ll see what his weak save is.

He has both Iron Wills and his Rage buffs Will. Linzi can attack Wiil with Caco Call and maybe Grief but the usual Sorc stuff won’t work.

Extended Stunning Barrier is my fav if you can give him disadvantage with Touch of Chaos.

 

[Humbaba]

Daily reminder not to take any of Quadruple Post-erius' advice ever.

 

[Lambach]

Why are you guys all so in love with Sorc?

Because there's literally no reason not to pick a spontaneous Caster in a CRPG where you have, at most, 3-4 actually good, useful Spells per level. PnP doesn't translate to vidya all that well, so the whole "versatility" thing of prepared casters is null and void.

 

[Desiderius]

It just owned you so bad you came crying to us. Everything you think you know is wrong.

Name three “bad” spells and I’ll tell you their niche. In any case the point is that with favorite meta you can stack it high and with non-spon cast it without full action.

 

[Shadenuat]

Hargulka’s weakest save is Reflex. That’s the trick - his Will is pretty buffed and his weapon makes him immune to the common spells that target Will.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You sure about that? Been a while since I played it last, but I seem to remember his special stats and weapon gave him immunity to things that would typically target Reflex (e.g. his Mallet gives him Freedom of Movement). Will-wise, he's as defenseless as a newborn kitten.

as said during raeg his will becomes way more, plus it's base stats not higher difficulty ones, as for weapon, FoM means immunity to hold monster etc. actually only real good enchantment spell against him is to make him Laugh.

 

[Humbaba]

It just owned you so bad you came crying to us. Everything you think you know is wrong.

Said the idiot who gave advice on a boss he hadn't even fought yet

 

[Lambach]

It just owned you so bad you came crying to us. Everything you think you know is wrong.

OK, sensei, calm your fat man tits.

But more to the point, can you provide a specific example of why you'd ever pick a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer in Wrath of the Righteous? Why do you need to know every spell there is at, say, Level 3, and wrack your brain trying to figure out which ones to prepare and in which amounts, when there are literally only 4 good spells there that you can all easily get as a Sorc and cast and Metamagic at will: Haste, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Stinking Cloud. That's it. There's literally no need to use any other Spell there as an Arcane Caster.

Heroism? Let your Bard cast it. Protection from Energy? Hello, what the fuck is your Cleric/Oracle/other Divine Caster doing so that you feel the need to use that as an Arcane Caster? Repeat this for every other Spell Level.

 

[Shadenuat]

well that escalated quickly.

 

[ArchAngel]

Why are you guys all so in love with Sorc?

Because there's literally no reason not to pick a spontaneous Caster in a CRPG where you have, at most, 3-4 actually good, useful Spells per level. PnP doesn't translate to vidya all that well, so the whole "versatility" thing of prepared casters is null and void.

In WotR where I use metamagic a lot, my spontaneous caster companion is stuck not being able to cast these as she can only move 5 ft while prepared caster moves 30 ft and does 2x metamagic. Of course this is with TB mode but this whole thing was brought from PnP where it is only TB

 

[Desiderius]

Oh for crissakes you’re wrong about everything. Burning a Bard spell on Herosim when you’ve got Good Hope? And in Wrath what Bard?

You can’t use Meta on Sorc without using a Full Action, that’s the main reason to go Wiz/Shaman (who can use Hexes for Meta feats as Cam did in the 237 damage pic) or even Arcanist (Phantasmal is a great one) if you like to autistically spam one spell, then you get Favorite Meta and stack it and can move + cast.

You named two spells that other classes get but you have yet to name the one that would go a good way to fixing your pathetic offense, Magic Weapon, Greater. There are (many) others. Read your Spellbook.

Name three Sorc/Wiz only spells you think are bad.

 

[Desiderius]

Hargulka’s weakest save is Reflex. That’s the trick - his Will is pretty buffed and his weapon makes him immune to the common spells that target Will.

Perfect example of what I’m talking about.

You sure about that? Been a while since I played it last, but I seem to remember his special stats and weapon gave him immunity to things that would typically target Reflex (e.g. his Mallet gives him Freedom of Movement). Will-wise, he's as defenseless as a newborn kitten.

as said during raeg his will becomes way more, plus it's base stats not higher difficulty ones, as for weapon, FoM means immunity to hold monster etc. actually only real good enchantment spell against him is to make him Laugh.

Or you can just Disarm him.

 

[Shadenuat]

one day I will make combat maneuver char. tried once in wrath, didn't stack enough to matter.
by that I obviously mean character that actually feels like dirty tricky fighter, not daidre overruning everything with stampede of oversized dogs etc.

 

[Lambach]

Name three “bad” spells and I’ll tell you their niche. In any case the point is that with favorite meta you can stack it high and with non-spon cast it without full action.

Lulz, in a game like WotR where you have 12 septillion Feats, Mythic Abilities, items, Metamagics and on and on and on, sure, you can find some niche for most Spells. But that's just it, they're niche and you're better of being able to cast more Spells per day that will actually be universally useful throughout the entire game than finding some hidden use for that one super-sikrit-combo that you will use once or twice during the entire game.

You can’t use Meta on Sorc without using a Full Action

And? My Sorc usually stays in the back and flings Spells, I'm not sure what the problem is with using Full Action for it. I don't really need to reposition him once every Turn.

Name three Sorc/Wiz only spells you think are bad.

It's not that they are straight-up bad bad, it's that other Spells found at the same Spell Level outclass them by leaps and bounds, to the point that there's no reason to consider them at all, aside from some niche usage that will be useful like 2-3 times in a 100+ hour video-game.

 

[Shadenuat]

Only level 1 wiz spells primarely sadden me. It's because Owlcats say, put fairly high HD on their monsters and immuns that make these spells fail even in their own tutorials. Or because how easy it is to often replicate some of such effects with other things. In Cat meta, some of those lvl 1 spells might as well not allow a save, similar to Doom from Baldur's Gate. Then they would fare nicely. And increase duration of some spells.
For example Stunning Barrier can be useful, but would be more if it was just Personal, lasts Until Discharged.

 

[ArchAngel]

Name three “bad” spells and I’ll tell you their niche. In any case the point is that with favorite meta you can stack it high and with non-spon cast it without full action.

Lulz, in a game like WotR where you have 12 septillion Feats, Mythic Abilities, items, Metamagics and on and on and on, sure, you can find some niche for most Spells. But that's just it, they're niche and you're better of being able to cast more Spells per day that will actually be universally useful throughout the entire game than finding some hidden use for that one super-sikrit-combo that you will use once or twice during the entire game.

You can’t use Meta on Sorc without using a Full Action

And? My Sorc usually stays in the back and flings Spells, I'm not sure what the problem is with using Full Action for it. I don't really need to reposition him once every Turn.

Name three Sorc/Wiz only spells you think are bad.

It's not that they are straight-up bad bad, it's that other Spells found at the same Spell Level outclass them by leaps and bounds, to the point that there's no reason to consider them at all, aside from some niche usage that will be useful like 2-3 times in a 100+ hour video-game.

My spontaneous casters in 90% of battles cannot use 2x offensive metamagic spells without using metamagic rods on turn 1 because if they are not fireball their range is short. So I usually move forward and get one free spell and then 2nd one needs metamagic rod. On the other hand Nenio (or my Necro) used a bunch of metamagic from turn one and only saved rods for bosses.

 

[Lambach]

My spontaneous casters in 90% of battles cannot use 2x offensive metamagic spells without using metamagic rods on turn 1 because if they are not fireball their range is short. So I usually move forward and get one free spell and then 2nd one needs metamagic rod. On the other hand Nenio (or my Necro) used a bunch of metamagic from turn one and only saved rods for bosses.

Wooah, buster, did I misunderstand you, or did you say you're using 2 Spells per Turn? What kind of Mythic fuckery that I haven't unlocked yet is that?

 

[Desiderius]

one day I will make combat maneuver char. tried once in wrath, didn't stack enough to matter.
by that I obviously mean character that actually feels like dirty tricky fighter, not daidre overruning everything with stampede of oversized dogs etc.

It was worth it on Swordlord since Wrath has a Disarming Strike that gives free Disarm on Crit. Wrath also has +CM equipment, though it doesn’t show up until after Devarra.

I have in fact Disarmed Harg. Disarms cause mob to attack unarmed and untrained (this is what Stone Fists are for BTW, to prevent this on your characters against mobs like Gormandizer with Adhesion) which triggers AoOs for your team.

CMs are Standard Action in KM so you move + CM then Full Attack once in position. They’re good against things with a lot of Armor (including Natural Armor, which is harder to bypass) and/or flat-footed things. So shld be able to use the initiative to Dirty Trick Blind Devarra for instance.

Obviously great against casters.