Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Now his thing seems to be the complete opposite: telling people why they shouldn't build such-and-such because it sucks

There is a system that covers both directions of Desiderius autism - he likes being contrarian and tries to argue against any opinion loudly expressed at the current moment that caught his eye for some reason.

He probably just likes talking about the game and does it to incite a lively discussion) I do it myself, sometimes, but I try to moderate my tone to avoid being obnoxious rude.

Yeah God forbid there be any rudeness at the Codex.

That's the brand, brother.

say that the game must be really good because it's so active on the Codex.

I spam the forum because I'm sitting on a bench watching my kids play on a playground. Wine moms aren't into RPGs.

Some of the criticisms/quick dropping the game are a direct result of the tunnel-vision precluding people from ever discovering the depth of the design space. Far from all of course, especially in Wrath where it’s painfully apparent Owlcat themselves never bothered to.

That's cool and all but you basically argued for some 3 pages as to why EK is not the most optimal efficient way to play the game while Daidre was trying to explain to you in 15 different ways why he wants to play the class because he thinks it sounds fun.

No, OP said he thought EK and Weapon Spec looked good (optimal). Classic 3.5itis. I explained the downsides and Daidre came in with the conventional not-so-wisdom. He was arguing optimal, so I came back with why I don't think it is with reasons to back it up.

Daidre is a much better player than InEffect but the classic InEffect death spiral in P:K was for new players to come in with 3.5 priors and for InEffect to bully them into staying there by implying that Unfair was the only real difficulty and the only way to survive was to play 3.5, and miss out on 90% of the PF philosophy, let alone the vast bulk of the P:K design space.

EK is InEffect's favorite class. The classic case was him telling a newb to go EK on Linzi.

 

[Yosharian]

To be fair Desi is not wrong there, that fucking Bard-EK build was stupid as fuck

 

[Grunker]

Now his thing seems to be the complete opposite: telling people why they shouldn't build such-and-such because it sucks

There is a system that covers both directions of Desiderius autism - he likes being contrarian and tries to argue against any opinion loudly expressed at the current moment that caught his eye for some reason.

He probably just likes talking about the game and does it to incite a lively discussion) I do it myself, sometimes, but I try to moderate my tone to avoid being obnoxious rude.

Yeah God forbid there be any rudeness at the Codex.

That's the brand, brother.

say that the game must be really good because it's so active on the Codex.

I've never said that.

I spam the forum because I'm sitting on a bench watching my kids play on a playground. Wine moms aren't into RPGs.

That's cool and all but you basically argued for some 3 pages as to why EK is not the most optimal efficient way to play the game while Daidre was trying to explain to you in 15 different ways why he wants to play the class because he thinks it sounds fun.

No, OP said he thought EK and Weapon Spec looked good (optimal). Classic 3.5itis. I explained the downsides and Daidre came in with the conventional not-so-wisdom. He was arguing optimal, so I came back with why I don't think it is with reasons to back it up.

Daidre is a much better player than InEffect but the classic InEffect death spiral in P:K was for new players to come in with 3.5 priors and for InEffect to bully them into staying there by implying that Unfair was the only real difficulty and the only way to survive was to play 3.5, and miss out on 90% of the PF philosophy, let alone the vast bulk of the P:K design space.

EK is InEffect's favorite class. The classic case was him telling a newb to go EK on Linzi.

Sounds more like just plain idiocy than 3.5 idiocy tbh. EK ain't even that good in 3.5.

Pathfinder for the most part works exactly like 3.5 except for a list of exceptions, one of those being prestige classing isn't good by default, though I suppose the latter was sort of your point. I don't think the logic space is categorically different though

 

[Average Manatee]

What the hell would bard-EK even get you? Congrats you get full AB rather than 3/4ths AB but that's negated by your whole party getting a weaker bard song

 

[Saravan]

I've never said that.

Yeah ok? Try reading before you reply.

No, OP said he thought EK and Weapon Spec looked good (optimal). Classic 3.5itis. I explained the downsides and Daidre came in with the conventional not-so-wisdom. He was arguing optimal, so I came back with why I don't think it is with reasons to back it up.

Daidre is a much better player than InEffect but the classic InEffect death spiral in P:K was for new players to come in with 3.5 priors and for InEffect to bully them into staying there by implying that Unfair was the only real difficulty and the only way to survive was to play 3.5, and miss out on 90% of the PF philosophy, let alone the vast bulk of the P:K design space.

EK is InEffect's favorite class. The classic case was him telling a newb to go EK on Linzi.

I don't know why you gotta bring up your hate boner for InEffect, completely irrelevant...

Anyways, if someone says they think a particular part of a class is good, it doesn't mean it is the most optimal way. Especially if they also mention that they are looking for a certain feel or look (i.e. roleplay purposes). The only classic case to be derived here is you once again extrapolating something that was said to have a reason to start autistically spazz out about optimal builds. Like the talk about enduring vs. abundant spells where you wrote a master thesis about how abundant spells are much more optimal and enduring is just a meme, when literally everyone was just saying they prefer enduring for QoL purposes (hint: this is not the same as arguing that it's necessarily the most optimal choice).

 

[Desiderius]

You were talking about Viktor.

Deleted.

I don’t have a hate boner for InEffective, I just don’t want to leave new players at the mercy of idiots.

Owlcat should include a link to @Yosharian’s stuff. No always my style but he has a much deeper understanding of the game.

 

[Desiderius]

PF design started from the premise of obviating the need for all the dipshittery in 3.5 to get a viable character. Instead of going with Soyer over-balensing they just created new classes that included the best dip combinations in the classes themselves, then added abilities that unlock/progress with class level to duplicate the aha feeling of growing power you get in 3.5 from finding just the right dips (usually online).

Play Jaethal straight Inq if you want to get the best feel for how this plays out.

It is fundamentally different and designed (well) to be. Add in archetypes created to fill specific niches and you get both greatly enhanced replayability and less reliance on gamefaq-type resources which have precipitously declined in quality.

FextraDeath I’m looking at you.

Owlcat’s spotty implementation has nothing to do with the genius of the underlying PF philosophy.

 

[Grunker]

PF is a patch. It’s a good patch, but it’s still a patch

 

[Sarathiour]

InEffect does say some pretty dumb shit

• Legend. You currently can keep Trickster feats going into it, so that’s something. Losing all your Mythic feats, however, is not nice and is straight build-breaking for most builds. Power attack and crit are the the bare minimum Mythic feats a melee build wants, but you have to pick one in the case of Legend. Also no Barrage scaling as you are stuck at Mythic level 2. Most builds that start thinking about Legend quickly discover they are better off being something else. That’s the reality of it. On the bright side, you do get quite a lot of Base Attack Bonus (BAB) and whatnot. So it’s not completely hopeless, just not as good as it might seem at first glance.

 

[Desiderius]

KotC II does a similar thing but doesn’t let you dip at all. In retrospect maybe PF should have done likewise.

A little bit paradoxically, no it’s not true that Prestige classes are generally bad once you know what you’re doing.

Even EK.

 

[Grunker]

KotC II does a similar thing but doesn’t let you dip at all. In retrospect maybe PF should have done likewise.

A little bit paradoxically, no it’s not true that Prestige classes are generally bad once you know what you’re doing.

Even EK.

There you go again, my “not good by default” suddenly becomes “generally bad”

 

[Desiderius]

There you go again, my “not good by default” suddenly becomes “generally bad”

Yes, that's what not good by default means. I'll say shit like "iteratives are bad" to counter common assumptions (based on things I've learned through playing) but obviously they're not bad in all contexts. Maybe that's what you mean here, but it's not like people are crazy about Prestige classes, so you're just echoing the conventional take.

If you understand how class progression works and how to compare the value it generates vs other things you're wanting to try (ex: Haplo's Hopping Charger) then there are niches where the Prestige is the best fit for what you're trying to do.

Wrath is underdeveloped so stuff like Student of War gives bonuses that are too small to line up with the rest of the game but most of them offer something that you can't get otherwise and are worth going for if your build concept needs it.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Oh I definetely view Desiderius as a net positive from a cost-benefit standpoint.

Desiderius is love. Desiderius is life.

 

[Desiderius]

Kineticist and Deadly Earth wasn't at all OP and was totally limited in actual game scenarios compared to his homebrew Disarm-build or whatever.

Deadly Earth is an interesting case. I never got around to using it much because unlike Yosharian I'm not into broken shit.

I used to think that Stinking Cloud + Delay was similarly broken (InEffect once told me he didn't bother buffing because he just spams Cloud the whole game, which explains a lot) but once you actually try it its not trivial to beat enemy saves with the Cloud so I guess he's kiting a lot? IDK seems like that's harder than just playing the game straight. After gaining a great deal of experience with landing (and not landing) CMs I'm left to wonder whether Deadly Earth plays the same way.

I never kite and never need to.

 

[Yosharian]

Slander, I never even tried using Kineticist yet =(

 

[Parabalus]

Kineticist and Deadly Earth wasn't at all OP and was totally limited in actual game scenarios compared to his homebrew Disarm-build or whatever.

Deadly Earth is an interesting case. I never got around to using it much because unlike Yosharian I'm not into broken shit.

I used to think that Stinking Cloud + Delay was similarly broken (InEffect once told me he didn't bother buffing because he just spams Cloud the whole game, which explains a lot) but once you actually try it its not trivial to beat enemy saves with the Cloud so I guess he's kiting a lot? IDK seems like that's harder than just playing the game straight. After gaining a great deal of experience with landing (and not landing) CMs I'm left to wonder whether Deadly Earth plays the same way.

I never kite and never need to.

Deadly Earth is horrible without friendly AoE canceling, nigh unusable since you can't move through the map after clearing the encounter.

 

[Desiderius]

Also all my builds are homebrew. That’s the point.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Also all my builds are homebrew. That’s the point.

Agreed 100%. Everyone's builds should be homebrew and otherwise just exchanging tips, insights, and what not. Deciding how to structure your characters is a significant portion of the game. Letting someone else tell you what to do is like buying a cheat guide and following it exactly, then whining that the game isn't interesting.

 

[Grunker]

There you go again, my “not good by default” suddenly becomes “generally bad”

Yes, that's what not good by default means.

It's literally not.

Not good by default means it's not automatically and always good.

Generally bad means it's bad most of the time.

Not ALWAYS good obviously ≠ mostly bad.

You really don't see the mountain of irony doing this right after three posters point out that you have a tendency to reply to points that weren't made and ignore what people actually meant?

 

[Sarathiour]

Speaking of which, I was scratching my head trying to though of an alternative build for aru, but I dont really see anything that fit thematically that is neither pointless or involving a total respec.

I was thinking of bard, but even level 11 capstone does not really seems worth it compared to just using rangers' bond + instant enemy. Also this is not kingmaker, there is ton of other source for moral and competence bonus, so I would also be afraid of ending up with something useless.

Also I'm probably wrong about dire being the only worthwile elemental damage to pursue, elemental imbuement shirt + keeping daeran close with the ice dragon armor could also be pretty good, though it's probably going to take a turn to setup, so still pretty niche.

 

[Haplo]

Kineticist and Deadly Earth wasn't at all OP and was totally limited in actual game scenarios compared to his homebrew Disarm-build or whatever.

Deadly Earth is an interesting case. I never got around to using it much because unlike Yosharian I'm not into broken shit.

I used to think that Stinking Cloud + Delay was similarly broken (InEffect once told me he didn't bother buffing because he just spams Cloud the whole game, which explains a lot) but once you actually try it its not trivial to beat enemy saves with the Cloud so I guess he's kiting a lot? IDK seems like that's harder than just playing the game straight. After gaining a great deal of experience with landing (and not landing) CMs I'm left to wonder whether Deadly Earth plays the same way.

I never kite and never need to.

Deadly Earth is horrible without friendly AoE canceling, nigh unusable since you can't move through the map after clearing the encounter.

Simply recast it somewhere out of the way. You can only have one instance running.

 

[Parabalus]

Kineticist and Deadly Earth wasn't at all OP and was totally limited in actual game scenarios compared to his homebrew Disarm-build or whatever.

Deadly Earth is an interesting case. I never got around to using it much because unlike Yosharian I'm not into broken shit.

I used to think that Stinking Cloud + Delay was similarly broken (InEffect once told me he didn't bother buffing because he just spams Cloud the whole game, which explains a lot) but once you actually try it its not trivial to beat enemy saves with the Cloud so I guess he's kiting a lot? IDK seems like that's harder than just playing the game straight. After gaining a great deal of experience with landing (and not landing) CMs I'm left to wonder whether Deadly Earth plays the same way.

I never kite and never need to.

Deadly Earth is horrible without friendly AoE canceling, nigh unusable since you can't move through the map after clearing the encounter.

Simply recast it somewhere out of the way. You can only have one instance running.

Ye but for the majority of the game you need to wait for the long gather power animations.

So if you use DE and another persistent like wall, you spend 3+3 rounds for the start of the fight, then 2+2 (no infusions) moving it afterwards.

Extremely time consuming, and if any of your party members as much as touch it they are triplocked to death.

 

[Desiderius]

Sadly Wrath Companions (other than Lann) don’t set up well for going different directions, in contrast to P:K.

Seelah you can but Wrath is the ideal setting for Pal so you’re not gaining much if anything.

 

[Desiderius]

I read it as “not good” by default. If you meant it the other way who thinks they’re good by default to begin with?

Are you talking about EK? Yeah, I can see that, and AT as well. Most people think the other ones are trash. More accurate to say they’re narrow and not as good as they should be but most are playable.

 

[Desiderius]

Agreed 100%. Everyone's builds should be homebrew and otherwise just exchanging tips, insights, and what not. Deciding how to structure your characters is a significant portion of the game. Letting someone else tell you what to do is like buying a cheat guide and following it exactly, then whining that the game isn't interesting.

There’s a happy medium there. I started with Roahin’s builds which are good because they’re thematic and pretty easy to improve upon once you get a handle on how the game works.

If you started gaming before there were any online resources doing your own thing comes naturally but there are people who started during the phone game era who don’t know anything else but looking up what you’re supposed to do then owning with it.

Part of the appeal of throwback games is letting them get a taste of figuring shit out for themselves and the sense of accomplishment you get doing that.