Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Average Manatee]

Some more Magic Deceiver testing. Apparently, if your spell has Chain Lightning and is single target, the 2nd spell also gains the chain effect of chain lightning. This also dupes with Zippy Magic. And we take Favorable Magic because of course we do.

So lets say you do Chain Lightning/Ki Shout. Level 20 MD will deal 20d6 CL, 20D6 Ki Shout, then another 20d6 CL and 20d6 Ki Shout from zippy magic to everything in an area. Of course you'll use your maximize rod on this, so 480 damage w/ save for 25% off, and you have to save twice against everything. Then keep in mind that caster level bonuses affect these numbers unreasonably well, with each level adding 4d6 damage. +7 caster level will make this into 648 damage. Also obviously possible to empower this through various means to make it 972 damage.

This also works with Phantasmal killer. Chain Lightning effectively makes Phantasmal Killer into Weird, Zippy Magic makes it into casting Weird twice, and Favorable Magic makes it into casting weird twice with each cast requiring two successful saving throws per normal saving throw. Then we throw on a persistent metamagic rod which would normally make every cast require two saving throws but I'm not sure how the math works out at this point, let's just say everything starts fucking dying hard.

Of course, since you're capping at level 6 spells, Azata's ability to refresh all your spells at level 7 or lower is effectively a full reset in your spell uses.

 

[Desiderius]

It is a crutch but its such a powerful one that you'd be stupid not to take it. Shit happens, characters get dispelled, fail random saving throws, enemies roll 20s for all their attacks, etc etc. If you need a mythic ability to kill a boss in under 3 turns then your build sucks. It's literally enough time to spend a whole round dispelling (making anything into a joke fight), then a whole round killing it, then you have a whole nother round to toast marshmellows or w/e.

The only, only weakness of Last Stand is that it doesn't apply to pets and pets dying means you end up on the floor spending a turn to get up.

I've taken it maybe three times.

Big opportunity cost on Mythic abilities. Designing for tinman up to Drezen already covers 90% of the value. I avoid gamebreaking abilities now so not blowing out the game the rest of the way but yeah shooting for resilience is more fun I think since it lets you take Mythics that are focused on what you're doing with each character instead of generic ones.

 

[Haplo]

Some more Magic Deceiver testing. Apparently, if your spell has Chain Lightning and is single target, the 2nd spell also gains the chain effect of chain lightning. This also dupes with Zippy Magic. And we take Favorable Magic because of course we do.

So lets say you do Chain Lightning/Ki Shout. Level 20 MD will deal 20d6 CL, 20D6 Ki Shout, then another 20d6 CL and 20d6 Ki Shout from zippy magic to everything in an area. Of course you'll use your maximize rod on this, so 480 damage w/ save for 25% off, and you have to save twice against everything. Then keep in mind that caster level bonuses affect these numbers unreasonably well, with each level adding 4d6 damage. +7 caster level will make this into 648 damage. Also obviously possible to empower this through various means to make it 972 damage.

This also works with Phantasmal killer. Chain Lightning effectively makes Phantasmal Killer into Weird, Zippy Magic makes it into casting Weird twice, and Favorable Magic makes it into casting weird twice with each cast requiring two successful saving throws per normal saving throw. Then we throw on a persistent metamagic rod which would normally make every cast require two saving throws but I'm not sure how the math works out at this point, let's just say everything starts fucking dying hard.

Of course, since you're capping at level 6 spells, Azata's ability to refresh all your spells at level 7 or lower is effectively a full reset in your spell uses.

Impressive.

 

[MjKorz]

Then we throw on a persistent metamagic rod which would normally make every cast require two saving throws but I'm not sure how the math works out at this point

Persistent metamagic only works on an enemy's successful saving throw and takes into account any saving throw disadvantages the enemy gets. If you cast a spell with Favorable Magic and Persistent metamagic, the enemy is forced to roll the save twice and take the worst result. If the enemy fails their saving throw, you get no benefit from Persistent magic. If the enemy succeeds their saving throw, Persistent metamagic kicks in and they forced to save again while still being forced to roll the save twice and take the worst result.

So lets say you do Chain Lightning/Ki Shout.

Try Disintegrate instead of Ki Shout.

 

[Aarwolf]

What's the consensus on all the DLCs released for this RPG game? I still haven't played them and will trust the hivemind on this one.

DLC1 - Something something Excess: you hate Owlcat puzzles? so here's your DLC full of puzzles! Avoid like a plague.
DLC2 - Through the Ashes: low level adventure with 15 point buy party; for those who love low level DnD adventures with crappy party
DLC3 - Midnight Isles: tedious, combat heavy slog, next to none ties with main campaign, loot and exp completely breaks ingame economy; you end up with 10 million gold in act 5 and hitting level 20 just after you finish act 4; some nice items though
DLC4 - Last Sarkorian: the best one, new companion and not a side story, but strongly knitted into main story; if I should pick only one, it would be this one
DLC5 - Lord of Nothing: continuation of DLC2, you can't play it without it; same shit as DLC2, but higher levels; items and companions don't transfer into main story, main boss is laughable
DLC6 - Dance of Masks: wannabe Citadel impostor, mostly fluff and at that not engaging one; but now you can smooch your AI waifu, so that's something, I guess; oh, and a lot of low budget cringe voice acting, which makes it second best DLC from the six

Play only DLC4, if you want, than maybe DLC3 or DLC6. Avoid the rest.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Semi-serious comment, but I've actually found DLC1 most "useful" as it gives you a very quick, clean and convenient way to pre-plan your builds.

 

[skaraher]

I liked Midnight isles

 

[Average Manatee]

Persistent metamagic only works on an enemy's successful saving throw and takes into account any saving throw disadvantages the enemy gets. If you cast a spell with Favorable Magic and Persistent metamagic, the enemy is forced to roll the save twice and take the worst result. If the enemy fails their saving throw, you get no benefit from Persistent magic. If the enemy succeeds their saving throw, Persistent metamagic kicks in and they forced to save again while still being forced to roll the save twice and take the worst result.

So, it's effectively a save three times deal. Sensible, I was wondering whether with Owlcat coding they'd make it apply to both saves of Zippy and force the enemy to save four times. The log was hard to understand with like 50 saving throws going off at once.

Try Disintegrate instead of Ki Shout.

Ehh, higher max damage but far worse if they save. I'm not seeing the advantage in practice. Given that we already have -3 to our DC because we're casting level 6 spells rather than level 9, I'm not a huge fan unless you're nerfing their saves in some other way which usually just takes time away that you could have blasted more for guaranteed damage with CL/Ki

 

[MjKorz]

Ehh, higher max damage but far worse if they save.

They're not going to save when you have proper DC caster support in the form of Court Poet with Mythic Inspiration + Ring of Triumphant Advance on your DC caster as well as all the proper main casting stat and spell DC boosting items ON TOP of possible spell persistency.

 

[Average Manatee]

Oh fuck off why do you do this to me Owlcat. Doesn't completely ruin the kit but it definitely makes it a lot weaker if you need to win initiative the normal way or lose basically the whole point of the class and charging in general.

Thankfully you can still do the meme where you open with charge in RT, then switch to TB and immediately get a surprise round.

EDIT: Also, immunity to ground-based effects doesn't seem to work well. Doesn't work vs. Winter's Grasp at least.

Ehh, higher max damage but far worse if they save.

They're not going to save when you have proper DC caster support in the form of Court Poet with Mythic Inspiration + Ring of Triumphant Advance on your DC caster as well as all the proper main casting stat and spell DC boosting items ON TOP of possible spell persistency.

I mean if you can already wipe out 95% of enemies in one spell (of which you can cast two per turn, there's tons of mid level quickening rods), why worry about saves?

 

[Sweeper]

For what possible reason should I build for not taking damage? I have a feat for that.

But hey, keep sperging about a "proper" way to play, I'd rather do stuff that's fun to play , because I'm immortal for 2 rounds, biatch.

It's like using TM in an Underrail build.
You didn't beat the game bro.

 

[Average Manatee]

lmao rekt.

Tavern defense does seem pretty easy nowadays though as long as you're level 5, even on unfair its barely harder than the average trash fight in Chapter 1. The stats seem to be significantly nerfed, Schir for example was a tough fucking cookie elsewhere but here it just eats shit. Only Camelia took a single hit. The battle is just loooooooooong, especially if you're in turn based because you want to try and get 12/12. I suppose it makes sense to make the enemies individually weaker or replaying this fight over and over would suck, but they went a little too far imo.

lotta tards fell for that grease.

 

[MjKorz]

The battle is just loooooooooong

It's actually very short, you just need to understand exactly what to kill.

1. Kill alchemists until dretches and schir spawn on the roof.
2. Kill the dretches and schir on the roof and whatever alchemists are present.
3. Minotaur will spawn, kill it and the two more alchemists.
4. Battle is instantly won, the rest of the cultists don't matter and will just disappear.

 

[Average Manatee]

The battle is just loooooooooong

It's actually very short, you just need to understand exactly what to kill.

1. Kill alchemists until dretches and schir spawn on the roof.
2. Kill the dretches and schir on the roof and whatever alchemists are present.
3. Minotaur will spawn, kill it and the two more alchemists.
4. Battle is instantly won, the rest of the cultists don't matter and will just disappear.

Yes, but running past cultists and letting them smack you around is bad for your health. At least on unfair, their AB is probably so poor they can't do a thing on core or below. They were barely hitting me as it is.

 

[MjKorz]

Yes, but running past cultists and letting them smack you around is bad for your health

That's why you deploy Selective Grease right in front of the gates and just below the stairs with a Fox's Cunning (or Eagle's Splendor) buffed and possibly Court Poet supported DC caster.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yes, but running past cultists and letting them smack you around is bad for your health

That's why you deploy Selective Grease right in front of the gates and just below the stairs with a Fox's Cunning (or Eagle's Splendor) buffed and possibly Court Poet supported DC caster.

What do you think I did in the above screenshots?

 

[MjKorz]

What do you think I did in the above screenshots?

Complain about a problem that does not exist since with proper application of Grease you won't be threatened by infinitely respawning cultist trash mobs on any difficulty and can focus on killing all the "unique" demon/alchemist spawns that progress the encounter.

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/4171877

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[Desiderius]

The thing about Tavern Defense is that all but a couple mobs are so low level that Sleep and Scare actually work (along with Hypnotism). Pretty much only place in the game.

Of course you can just focus Arsonists and rooftops while letting Irabeth's army fend off everything else until the end boss anyway.

Getting to level five helps of course, but helps even more to get through Shadows to Necromancer unscathed.

 

[Desiderius]

Ulbrig Grappled Darrazand and he failed the Concentration check on his Death Throes lol:



Somehow I don't think that's WAI.

I'm trying a stipulation game with no AoE effects over +2 (no Mark of Justice, Guarded Hearth, etc) and sticking to Hard for now. Can see the new DEX drain on Sneak Advanced Rogue Talent here applied via Inciter Skald. If the DEX drain works at all it takes a round to kick in so not so great. Manyshot forces two Fort 29 checks on the Skinning Cloak thingie, and Delamere's Bow a Fort 23 check for Entangle on any hit. Even debuffed by Shaken and Sicken Darrazand has 29 Fort on Hard but these effects trigger pretty often on everything else.

Flat-footed is from Ulbrig's Grapple.



Should have turned off Power Attack to get Grapple applied. Unfair + Mark would mostly cancel out and Guarded Hearth and/or Touch of Good would make it trivial.

Get to try to apply it on each of 6 attacks so only have to be within 15 of his CMD or so to have a good shot. Chainmail of Dragonfly effect is +2 not +1 AoE and stacks, Extended Holy Whisper (via Rod) can be applied on Good characters pre-combat for first couple rounds. Only way Sosiel can get Inspiring Command without Impossible Domain* is respec into Separatist since he's Neutral Good. Regill can only take one Domain now.

* - went all in on Dispelling instead

 

[Average Manatee]

Desiderius how are you liking Sable Company Marine? I'm finding it surprisingly meh atm.

Cons:
- Can't use flying attack out of battle. This is the main reason I'd like it, to be able to charge in instances like through doorways where you can't get a straight line to the enemy without triggering battle.
- Flying attack doesn't count as a charge.
- No inherent trip on attacks, only on flying attack. Which you can't use constantly against the same enemy.
- Doesn't actually seem to be immune to some ground based effects. Not a huge deal once you get selective but annoying initially.
- Notably worse stats and AC than Dog. Lvl 1 AC is 18 vs 22 for Dog. It also starts large and doesn't grow, meaning Dog gets an additional +8 Str/-2 Dex/+4 Con/+2 AC over it.

Pros:
- Does exist at level 1 for ranger rather than requiring level 4. But due to the AC issue you kind of can't use it to tank early which is the main reason I'd like a level 1 pet.
- Does start large so you can ride it. I presume animal growth works on it to raise size even further, which means you can also size yourself up and make your attack range even larger.
- Enemy is automatically flatfooted vs. first hit of flying attack by both rider and ridee.
- Does get pounce. Though this doesn't apply to the rider.

Altogether I think it falls behind. A normal pet could either charge for 2x/3x damage (ideally with pounce but we'll pretend there's no outside source of that), or run up and get 1 pet attack + full rider attacks. Hippo instead gets flying attack for no charge bonus, a full pet attack + 1 rider attack. Since rider damage is usually more than pet this is substantially worse unless you're fighting a very high AC enemy that you need to be flatfooted to hit.

If it was just Hippo vs. Dog I'd say it's roughly balanced, but it's actually Hippo vs. Demonslayer w/ Dog and Demonslayer just adds too much to the whole formula.

 

[Desiderius]

- Flying attacks only in combat is good. Out-of-combat would be stupid
- Charge shit is broken, already great
- I use Flying attack 80% of the time anyway. If you have to constantly attack the same target suck less
- Stop using Grease. It sucks.
- yeah you trade some of the insane strength for great mobility and reach, still has plenty especially once Gauntlets come in (and is fine before), AC not as needed since the purpose of the mobility is to neutralize hard to reach threats. Respec Ember to one of the Alchemist archetypes for Shield if you're worried about it.

- tanking early isn't that much of a thing outside Unfair. If you want to play Unfair from the start bring a Leopard or whatever. Seelah is better tank early than non-Leopard pet. Cam can too.
- plays similar to Nomad with regard to early riding. I like Mounted Ranged with Ranger since it gets Point-Blank Master and you can shoot stuff after pet kills main target. Eventually gets all the Snap Shots. Can go unmounted early or use Glaive.
- auto flat-foot is kind of borken
- pounce on Griffin is enough

It doesn't fall behind lol. Normal Charges take a lot of work to set up. Opening fight with Charge in TB bugs out half the time anyway. Just Charge with something else (or open with spell) then fly to anywhere on the screen. It's great. Can get Greater Bull Rush with Bully for other ability that triggers twice and is AoE.

Demonslayer is gay. Regular Ranger can already stack Favored Enemy Demon and pet doesn't need the help. Does vanilla still divide up the Demon types? TTT just uses Outsider.

Nomad, Freebooter, Sable, Espionage Expert > Demonslayer

 

[Serious_Business]

The Proper of Application of Grease. What a time to be alive. Do not complain if you haven't applied grease properly, boy

 

[MjKorz]

The Proper of Application of Grease. What a time to be alive. Do not complain if you haven't applied grease properly, boy

Grease is old news. Nowadays, every self-respecting Wizard is dipping Loremaster to slurp up that delicious Winter's Grasp.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Yes, but running past cultists and letting them smack you around is bad for your health

That's why you deploy Selective Grease right in front of the gates and just below the stairs with a Fox's Cunning (or Eagle's Splendor) buffed and possibly Court Poet supported DC caster.

You guys are insane. Just dump a regular grease to slow them down, then have two up front as melee blockers standing outside the grease. Give everyone else bows and just feather the arsonists, etc.

Easy peasy, Irabeth and co. spend the entire time sitting on their useless asses.