Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

How do you value the opportunity cost of giving someone a pet class just because you don't want to give your dedicated tank the first level hex that's obviously extremely good for tanking? Game's choke full off feats that give +1ac, this shit's pure platinum at the going rates.

Leopard class and you'll tank (much) better

So you're saying, pre-buff, leopard is a much better tank than someone with 20dex, tower chainshirt, ice hex ring and a shield? Not saying it's not, but citation needed.

Pre-buff lol. Wrath isn't the game for you if you don't want to buff. Mage Armor potion is mostly all you need at first and you can quaff a prot Evil or Shield of Faith for the tough stuff.



I think this is from Alpha or whatever. Add on a couple potions and you're to 35.



Leopard also has much higher Stealth than any of the companions so scouts much better and can open combat with a Charge to turn on Fighting Defensively that acts as a virtual taunt.

If you're not going to use that companion the rest of the game the cost is low, and the benefit is massive because it gives you a whole extra party member at the point of the game where you need one. Lann works well with several pet classes even if you're planning to use him. Giving Cam Iceplant severely slows down her ability to contribute to the team early and you're probably stuck keeping her around until Aru or thereabouts.

You've got Cam giving the team +2 to hit with Hampering plus a better tank out of thin air (who also Trips a good bit) or a Cam who struggles to contribute (her offense doesn't show up much until lvl 5 however you use her) and a Ring that puts a significant dent into your budget at that point in the game. There are toher good players who take Cam ranged for this reason but I've always got ranged pretty well covered.

 

[Desiderius]

Btw, I've thought that leopard might be strictly better super early, but if wiki is right it starts on 21 dex and +4 nat armor, so eh, p whatever.

It is strictly better super early (unless they've nerfed it) and stays better throughout the game. Only downside is that it's not really for mounting. I don't like running more than one pet but the other ones you can just mount. Or you put the Leopard companion on the bench once you've got your full team together. I wouldn't want to play Maze on Hard or above without one.

As with most conversations of this type I'm arguing with a flawed conventional wisdom more than you personally. Try it yourself and see. Or you may enjoy the challenge of playing petless (or find a way to make it better - tanking Cam can use Inflict scrolls and there are a lot of them lying around). A lot of ways to enjoy the game.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Pre-buff lol. Wrath isn't the game for you if you don't want to buff.

The point is, obviously, that buffs are buffs and work the same for everyone, you numpty.

And this is "much better" how? If I calculate correctly, you get 30ac just from your stat and the early item setup you can get after market square and the tower. That's without any other shenanigans like fighting defensively, size decrease yada yada and, most importantly, without any other tanking investments that you can do. Sure, further on and once you get an alchemist it's probably easier to stack ac on a pet before it becomes irrelevant, but that's just seems like more buffing bonanza and wasted opportunity costs to me, even if we stick to your idea of turning some poor bloke into a -1lvl leopard carrier being like a free real estate versus spending 1 hex slot on a tanking hex for a character that was obviously meant to be a tank.

 

[Desiderius]

Mage Armor doesn’t stack with Light/Medium Armors. Cam doesn’t get the Natural Armor the Leopard does even with Iceplant and you don’t get the Ring until the Heart. By the time you’ve reached the Tower you’ve got other companions (although Leopard is still significantly higher AC at that point and better Stealth and the opportunity cost issue remains), the hard part is the Maze where the benefit of Hampering Hex and another body is huge.

And I don’t get an Alchemist in Wrath. You’ve got better options. Taking Lann into a pet class flows naturally and doesn’t impede his development (much). The power of the Monk classes is the scaling later. Leopard remains a great tactical asset throughout the game so taking a pet class MC is also a viable option.

 

[Efe]

druid lann is good. you are supposed to prove your point, not try to bash his one.

on the other hand you get ember quite early, so hex scarcity doesnt sound that significant. maze has infinite rests and you can skip most of maze fights.

 

[Desiderius]

If I planned on using Seelah as a Pal (and I do, Pal is a God in this setting) and Lann as a ZA (which also ends up great) or Wend as a Fighter (likewise) and my main is a non-pet class (and I’d probably lean Azata Skald for high difficulty) then yeah Cam’s going to have to man the front lines, but it’s still a hard choice between Hampering and Iceplant because I still need to get stuff dead and Cam isn’t sticking around long term (tho she can still pinch hits vs the Dragon). And I want that 8k for several other things tho it’s less pressing than it was since you can pick up some of them later now.

I can see Iceplant in that (pretty common) scenario.

 

[Desiderius]

druid lann is good. you are supposed to prove your point, not try to bash his one.

on the other hand you get ember quite early, so hex scarcity doesnt sound that significant. maze has infinite rests and you can skip most of maze fights.

Not early enough lol, and Ember doesn’t get Hampering and can’t get Dazzling/Meta for Cam. Cam’s subclass trades some of her Hexes (the strength of the class is turning them into virtual bonus feats) for the weapon enchants, leaving her short of where a regular Shaman would be.

Ember’s fine but rarely makes the team.

 

[Kaivokz]

Thanks for the advice Zboj Lamignat

BTW the Bubble Buff mod makes all the buffing painless so that's not an excuse. The hard part is figuring out all the stacking party-wide sources and how to get access to them all. You've got enough rests in Wrath to use all the min/lvl stuff and the rnd/lvl for the hardest fights.

I hadn’t heard of this mod, I’ll have to try it out.

On the “tank” question: in my last game I basically ended up doing what Desiderius is suggesting, took a level of hunter to get a dog (not leopard) who had 35+ ac sometime near the beginning of chapter 2 because of natural armor stacking, pet stat scaling, potions, etc. That isn’t what I was going for though. Before that I used Camellia to spam the defensive luck hex on my paladin, which also wasn’t super fun imo.

What I wanted was an armored, mostly self sufficient frontliner (with some party buffs) without cheese (monk dips, pet dips, archmage armor + potion on someone who can’t even cast the spell, etc).

It’s fine to say “what you want isn’t viable (on Hard+).” I might try the Camellia ice hex idea, since I don’t plan on using her long term in a lawful good playthrough anyway.

I’m thinking of trying a custom party with a “group of veteran crusaders” theme, 3 mercs + 2 variable companions.

Main character either Paladin or Battle Oracle Angel.

Then two of… Warpriest, Deliverer Slayer, Faith Hunter Inquisitor, or Demonslayer Ranger. Probably Warpriest if I go Paladin, but not if I go Oracle, though I could use Daeran for divine spells.
(^these are the sort of companions I was hoping the adventure path would have given the theme)

And the fourth some sort of battlefield controller… sorcerer, arcanist, wizard—not really sure, but the idea would be to have 3 front liners mostly focused on damage, enabled by some enemy debuffs. I find that idea a lot more fun than “send the leopard in first.” I could maybe use Ember for this, but I’m very unfamiliar with the witch class.

I appreciate the advice from everyone; I’ll probably install that tabletop tweaks mod and then go through all the options… eliminating stacking bonuses that shouldn’t really stack (for both enemies and players) sounds good to me + bug fixes for toggleable items, and also the bubble buff mod.

 

[Haplo]

Btw, I've thought that leopard might be strictly better super early, but if wiki is right it starts on 21 dex and +4 nat armor, so eh, p whatever.

And it benefits far less from Animal Growth. Not a fan.

 

[Sarathiour]

Reg (+5 stacking AC for team) can hold their own if you use what they bring to the table.

Reg can also equip a tower shield, and start as the only companion able to do so. Far from optimal, because his offense will suffer a lot from it, but that's still a possible tool if someone really to go through the AC tanking route.

Glad to see you back for Easter

 

[Infinitron]

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous. Inevitable Excess Soundtrack

00:01 Mikhail Kotov - Clockwork Utopia
2:25 Mikhail Kotov - The Other Side
5:11 Dmitry V. Silantyev - Axis Battle Theme
7:01 Dmitry V. Silantyev - Facing the Inevitable
8:38 Dmitry V. Silantyev - Might of the Colorless Lord
10:17 Dmitry V. Silantyev - They Who Sow Chaos

 

[Desiderius]

Thanks for the advice Zboj Lamignat

BTW the Bubble Buff mod makes all the buffing painless so that's not an excuse. The hard part is figuring out all the stacking party-wide sources and how to get access to them all. You've got enough rests in Wrath to use all the min/lvl stuff and the rnd/lvl for the hardest fights.

I hadn’t heard of this mod, I’ll have to try it out.

On the “tank” question: in my last game I basically ended up doing what Desiderius is suggesting, took a level of hunter to get a dog (not leopard) who had 35+ ac sometime near the beginning of chapter 2 because of natural armor stacking, pet stat scaling, potions, etc. That isn’t what I was going for though. Before that I used Camellia to spam the defensive luck hex on my paladin, which also wasn’t super fun imo.

What I wanted was an armored, mostly self sufficient frontliner (with some party buffs) without cheese (monk dips, pet dips, archmage armor + potion on someone who can’t even cast the spell, etc).

It’s fine to say “what you want isn’t viable (on Hard+).” I might try the Camellia ice hex idea, since I don’t plan on using her long term in a lawful good playthrough anyway.

I’m thinking of trying a custom party with a “group of veteran crusaders” theme, 3 mercs + 2 variable companions.

Main character either Paladin or Battle Oracle Angel.

Then two of… Warpriest, Deliverer Slayer, Faith Hunter Inquisitor, or Demonslayer Ranger. Probably Warpriest if I go Paladin, but not if I go Oracle, though I could use Daeran for divine spells.
(^these are the sort of companions I was hoping the adventure path would have given the theme)

And the fourth some sort of battlefield controller… sorcerer, arcanist, wizard—not really sure, but the idea would be to have 3 front liners mostly focused on damage, enabled by some enemy debuffs. I find that idea a lot more fun than “send the leopard in first.” I could maybe use Ember for this, but I’m very unfamiliar with the witch class.

I appreciate the advice from everyone; I’ll probably install that tabletop tweaks mod and then go through all the options… eliminating stacking bonuses that shouldn’t really stack (for both enemies and players) sounds good to me + bug fixes for toggleable items, and also the bubble buff mod.

Taking one pet level is bad. You end up carrying around a corpse. You play a pet class all the way or don't at all. Any pet will eventually be a capable tank and several of them are more than that.



For me that usually means Lann with some flavor of Hunter or Sacred Huntmaster since I like to try to get him mounted eventually to use his Combat Reflexes and Snap Shot. There's also Druid. But ZA LAnn ends up really good as well so there you could MC a pet class (not Cleric) or ruin Cam to get a pet for a couple levels until you get your full party and can drop her. MC Alchemist can cover the full Barkskins she gives you for instance.

Cheese usually implies something unfairly good. Everything you list is in fact bad compared to the available alternatives. What you want is perfectly viable, but you'll need to play better (figure out all the tools at your disposal) to do so.

Seelah ends up dominant Mounted since Pal is so good in this setting. Reg, Greybor, and Wolj can also be great in melee (Reg and Wolj do more to help the team) as well as can Sosiel with Reach. Daeran makes a good Evoker or you can give him the pet/mount with Nature Mystery. Ember is... unfocused while Nenio isn't so I have trouble getting away from the latter. Aru is easy mode since she covers so many bases.

If you're rolling your own I don't have much to tell you but the companions can hang with anyone.

Now that the merging is fixed a Battle Oracle won't feel like such a waste. I'll probably finally do my Purifier run when I pick up the game again doing pretty much what you're suggesting.

 

[Desiderius]

Btw, I've thought that leopard might be strictly better super early, but if wiki is right it starts on 21 dex and +4 nat armor, so eh, p whatever.

And it benefits far less from Animal Growth. Not a fan.

Still can get a pretty high Trip with all that DEX and always keeps the highest AC. Better on RTwP when you can use the Scouting to set up great zergs.

Still only used it on Hard and above to get through first few levels with fewer headaches since you can get its AC almost arbitrarily high as needed.

 

[Desiderius]

Can somebody throw together a decent Eldritch Archer mod? I'd love to play one but the half-assery is too painful. It's literally Ranged Spell Combat/Strike tacked onto a base Magus so all the spells and abilities are melee-focused. Nice Heavy Armor there, just what an Archer needs.

You can't even Spellstrike the (several) melee touch spells with Reach metamagic.

 

[Kaivokz]

I was running divine hound/paladin with animal bond, which was probably also hampering my (individual) offensive ability since I was down a BAB and didn’t have paladin weapon enchants. The dog was an unhittable tripping machine, though. The angels should have picked him to bestow with power—angelic pup.

Now that the merging is fixed a Battle Oracle won't feel like such a waste. I'll probably finally do my Purifier run when I pick up the game again doing pretty much what you're suggesting.

What was broken with merging before / how is it now?

 

[Desiderius]

I was running divine hound/paladin with animal bond, which was probably also hampering my (individual) offensive ability since I was down a BAB and didn’t have paladin weapon enchants. The dog was an unhittable tripping machine, though. The angels should have picked him to bestow with power—angelic pup.

Now that the merging is fixed a Battle Oracle won't feel like such a waste. I'll probably finally do my Purifier run when I pick up the game again doing pretty much what you're suggesting.

What was broken with merging before / how is it now?

Paladin needs all its levels. Badly. Just ride the Horse. It’s good.

Divine Hound is also good and also needs all its levels. You get all the goodies in exchange for slow spell progression. Don’t make it any slower unless you have to.

In PF the classes are already multi-classed. Dipping one into the other makes them both worse.

 

[Desiderius]

Merging Angel with Oracle gave you unintended early access to your high level Oracle spells and you were just better off blasting the Angel Spells anyway than doing anything else.

 

[Desiderius]

Now I did do an Order of the Lion Cav 9/Pal 11 monstrosity that could give them team + CHR bonus to hit x2 with Mark of Justice and the 8th level Cav ability but the Swift actions were horribly clogged and she was stuck with Tridents (there’s a very good one but still). It involved her riding the bench for ten lvls which you don’t want because you miss her Fear immunity.

Since then I’ve just done straight Pal Shield Bashing with Balanced Defender (the untyped +3 also applies to your bashes and there are some absurd bashing Shields). You can get away with Enlarging her and Growthing the Horse on most maps if you open with a Charge to get into good position. IIRC it gives her a Full Attack without Pounce.

 

[Desiderius]

IIRC I was using Leopard’s high Stealth and Speed to get uncommonly close then Charge a soft target in the back to open. Casters usually have low CMDs so the Leopard would land the Trip on its AoO and the frontline melee would be distracted by the Leopard leaving them open to attax from my front line.

 

[ga♥]

Paladin doesn't really need all the levels, can easily multi at, for example lvl 14.
You won't lose much.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Paladin doesn't really need all the levels, can easily multi at, for example lvl 14.
You won't lose much.

Depends if you have the Divine Mount or Divine Weapon? A pet class need its level to be effective altho granted you can multi into something with Pet (e.g. Cav).

For the most part full Paladin works good enough for the base game altho with Boon Companion you can take 4 level of other Class multi with Paladin + Divine Mount. Bard/Sklad 4 Paladin 16 can be OK I guess? Archmage Armour iirc is always good later and running naked + Archmage armor + plethora of Dex buffs usually ended with higher AC than using Plate Armour+5 unless you are a Fighter

 

[Desiderius]

Paladin doesn't really need all the levels, can easily multi at, for example lvl 14.
You won't lose much.

Depends if you have the Divine Mount or Divine Weapon? A pet class need its level to be effective altho granted you can multi into something with Pet (e.g. Cav).

For the most part full Paladin works good enough for the base game altho with Boon Companion you can take 4 level of other Class multi with Paladin + Divine Mount. Bard/Sklad 4 Paladin 16 can be OK I guess? Archmage Armour iirc is always good later and running naked + Archmage armor + plethora of Dex buffs usually ended with higher AC than using Plate Armour+5 unless you are a Fighter

It's just bad. Trust me, I've done both. Pal needs the levels for like ten different reasons. The fourth level spells high among them (some of the best/most unique in the game) and getting the duration up on the ones before that. The 17th level ability is great as well and you want it ASAP.



With a very few exceptions it's not a dipping ruleset, that was already baked into the cake with all the different classes.

Why would you want to run naked when you've got Heavy proficiency and you're mounted with a shield in any case? People creating more problems than they're solving with this nonsense. Mythics are SCARCE. Take the good ones for your class. Let the people who can't wear Armor take Archmage. She hardly ever gets attacked anyway even if it were a problem.

I'm not talking about good enough for Core I'm talking about not needlessly gimping yourself for Hard/Unfair.



Next thing that happened was Lann critting with Bless Weapon (from Seelah) for 112 to bring this fight to a quick close. When you're in a setting full of Evil Outsiders and feel like you need another class to dip with Paladin of all things you're doing it wrong. EVERYTHING Pal has is good.



Some nice one-handed damage from midgame.



This is without any of the team AC support from Reg and Skald that I used for Unfair and she's also unmounted here. Not Fighting Defensively, etc... Once she's mounted Ac isn't that big of a factor and like one line in thirty of my combat logs does AC even come into play at all.

Because I don't blow Mythics chasing memes but focus on developing the strengths of the classes.



She can even cover Trickery!

 

[InD_ImaginE]

https://www.gamespace.com/all-articles/news/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous-interview-dlc/

Alexander Mishulin: We already announced, that the second DLC is coming on April 21st. The third DLC that will feature endless dungeon mode is going to be released somewhen in July. What is even more important, we don’t want to stop with these content and we are going to make several more adventures in the world of Pathfinder and those will be included in Season Pass #2 that is coming later in 2022, including the first DLC that is to be launched this Fall.

There will be more DLC coming for Wrath.

As for the studio itself Owlcat Games was originally established as an international company and we had employees all around the world. After the pandemic started and the team switched to remote work the process of relocation started almost on its own. Right now we are actively helping our employees to move to different places like Cyprus, where our HQ is located, a new office in Armenia and other European countries where they can focus on work and creativity. We already have successful experience of decentralized and remote work for the last two years and we believe that the team will continue to create great games further.

Another note that they seemingly are not working in Russia for the most part (we already know that they are officially is based in Cyprus altho I thought that it is mostly just for administrative purpose) so they are theoretically less affected by the whole sanction I guess.

 

[Haplo]

Paladin doesn't really need all the levels, can easily multi at, for example lvl 14.
You won't lose much.

Depends if you have the Divine Mount or Divine Weapon? A pet class need its level to be effective altho granted you can multi into something with Pet (e.g. Cav).

For the most part full Paladin works good enough for the base game altho with Boon Companion you can take 4 level of other Class multi with Paladin + Divine Mount. Bard/Sklad 4 Paladin 16 can be OK I guess? Archmage Armour iirc is always good later and running naked + Archmage armor + plethora of Dex buffs usually ended with higher AC than using Plate Armour+5 unless you are a Fighter

It's just bad. Trust me, I've done both. Pal needs the levels for like ten different reasons. The fourth level spells high among them (some of the best/most unique in the game) and getting the duration up on the ones before that. The 17th level ability is great as well and you want it ASAP.

A shame, as I need my Dirge of Doom ASAP. Normally on Seelah, but maybe I need to look whom else I could multiclass to bard (not Skald, as Inspire Rage cancels spellcasting and spell-like ability use - such as Travel Domain Dimension Hop).
Not Cam/Ember, as they need 8 class levels ASAP for Evil Eye upgrades.
Not Woljif, I love him too much as Rogue/Vivi. Hell, I tend to even mix Freebooter there.
Reg comes with 5 levels taken, so too late.
Nenio? I need my Brown Fur Transmuter.
Lann? Hmmm, maybe? Kinda low Cha for a Bard, though. Thought about making him a Judge maybe.
Daeran? Maybe? But he comes with 3 levels taken, so not optimal.

...perhaps a merc? I don't like them too much, but maybe need to make concessions for a Bard.. and maybe Brown Fur Transmuter, since full companion respecs are screwy.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Daeran? Maybe? But he comes with 3 levels taken, so not optimal.

I'd just respec Daeran fully to bard with mods and Nenio to BFT.