Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cryomancer]

That's the fun of these games. Seeing how ridiculous your bullshit, Build-Porn, Munchinkinned-out Monstrocity can get.

Yep. And you can beat the game with ANY class, with ANY archetype on normal and challenging. You only need pun pun builds to beat the game on unfair. I rather having a "win button" than a pointless class/mechanic that only exists to cause frustration on the lovers of that class.

For eg, a Win button would be composite deadly earth, because enemies has poor AI and doesn't try to avoid, wings and flying creatures can't ignore the ground effect like on P&P, among other things.

In other hands, NWN2 when brought Warlocks(a similar class mechanic wise except that warlocks has way more casting spell capabilities). destroyed the class. Chilling tentacles on P&P is a little similar to deadly earth. A greater invocation that on P&P has caster level + 8 AB and in game has a fix +5 AB meaning that the invocation only hits heavily armored enemies with a critical and after a hit, allow a FORT save vs paralyz. On P&P, the grapple check is much more unforgiving and while grappled, the target can't cast spells, fire ranged attacks, etc they are sitting ducks waiting to be dead by eldritch rays or worst, permanently changed into a toad/chicken(word of changing)

 

[Desiderius]

I win buttons are retarded.

The problem is persistent effects that force a save every round, and not just against AI (see Ghost Mage Plague Storm). Deadly Earth, Sirocco, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill. In contrast if you beat the save on a Bard song you're good from then on out. There are single-target high level spells whose whole thing is forcing a new save every turn. It's a very strong effect and just shouldn't be AoE.

Without that one narrow problem Kineticist is fine if a little weak on the control side since you often have to beat a Save on both Form and Substance to get any debuff effect, and/or win a CMB check without some of the tools other classes have to help them do so.

 

[Cryomancer]

The problem is persistent effects that force a save every round

The problem is. Only this effects ignore spell resistance and some enemies like spawn of rovagug has high SR. 36 i believe. A lv 20 sorcerer with greater spell penetration is more likely to not hit him with any spell that allow SR. Jabberwoocky has 32(not sure), between maybe dealing damage this round to dealing a lot of damage for the entire encounter, i believe that the second is the best.

PS : As for kineticists being weaker in the control side of thing, they have the push invocation but is nothing like a Sirroco or even a Ice Prison...

 

[Desiderius]

The problem is persistent effects that force a save every round

The problem is. Only this effects ignore spell resistance and some enemies like spawn of rovagug has high SR. 36 i believe. A lv 20 sorcerer with greater spell penetration is more likely to not hit him with any spell that allow SR. Jabberwoocky has 32(not sure), between maybe dealing damage this round to dealing a lot of damage for the entire encounter, i believe that the second is the best.

PS : As for kineticists being weaker in the control side of thing, they have the push invocation but is nothing like a Sirroco or even a Ice Prison...

There are items to get Spell Pen up in the high 20s at least, and you can just use Grandmaster Rod. Pushing Invocation is fun with Kalikke and Whirlwind.

One thing about Kineticists is that Blasts never get iteratives, so they're like Vital Strike. Kinetic Blade does get iteratives.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

If the player wanna save scum, is his problem. But you should't design your encounter expecting it from the player;

Is it really save scumming when a player gets beaten by an encounter and then buffs himself up to the best of his abilities before the fight in order to try it again? There's even a Kingmaker loading screen tip that advises you to "buff up before tough fights", so would Owlcat devs even agree with you that they don't balance the game around that?

Shit on Pillars of Eternity all you want, but it's undeniable that their solution is the best way to handle pre-buffs and summons in a computer game: don't allow them to be cast outside of the battle and balance the encounters and the buffs accordingly. There's no need for this kind of limitation in PnP because there's no reload button and you go into encounters armed only with the knowledge you've been able to gather through your non combat skills. And to compensate the inherent "ironman" nature of it, you have a DM who can tailor difficulty to how your party is doing.

But this is just one of many PnP characteristics that translate very poorly to a computer game. And Pathfinder in particular translates incredibly poorly to real-time with pause too. Way too many skills, effects, conditions, spells, characters making 5 attacks per round, all combining to making it quite the clusterfuck. Another page they could take from PoE, since they're so dead set on making a RtwP game, is incorporating the companion AI script system (that PoE itself borrowed from FFXII). Surrounded by one or more enemy: activate cleave. Ally lower than 50% HP: apply lay on hands. And so on and on. Makes the game a lot more manageable. 'Til then I don't see myself ever playing this without turn-based.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Mind you, even in PoE spamming summons borders on being a cheesy degenerate strat. The way having multiple bodies on the field eats into enemies' action economy means that unless they have a way of disposing of them very quickly the encounter is pretty much won by default, with minimal strategy and effort. But if you're limited to summoning after combat starts (rather than walking into a fight with your own personal army), then I guess that the fact that you managed to get those summons out without being interrupted or dying would make the battle at least feel somewhat earned.

 

[LabRat]

https://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/505773273
Someone posted six mythic paths and mythic feats screenshot.

 

[Yosharian]

It's DANSE Macabre, Owlcat!

 

[Daedalos]

cant even enter the game..f ucking buggy shit

 

[Gay-Lussac]

But Owlcat's idea of balance 1) is huge stat bloat on top of 2) throwing feats on NPCs left and right and 3) +5-8 items.

It's not that PF can't use some balance: it's held together by duct tape and glue as is, despite the designers efforts, but Owlcat balancing abilities isn't confidence inspiring after they treated NPCs in Kingmaker.

You know, it looked like that at first glance but once you get into the game it somehow worked. Agree they could cut some of the bloat on both sides, but the game presented a consistent level of challenge with the exception of most of the too weak Pitax chapter.

I would rather see Mobs learn how to use those Feats better and/or group buffs/tactics than stack big stats on both sides.

I disagree entirely that it worked. Hard's difficulty fall off a cliff at some point around mid-game, probably somewhere around Season of Bloom. So you play on Unfair if you want a decent challenge to an optimized PC during the later stages of the game. Except that in order to play Unfair you have to endure the first 8-10 or so levels of "will I get one-shot by a random crit and be forced to reload?" and "will my save-or-suck spell land so that I have a chance of beating this encounter or not?". It takes endurance at least as much as it takes strategy. And the strategy revolves mostly around properly building your characters, since the AI is braindead at all levels.

They really should look into making the harder difficulties have enemies using better tactics rather than just giving the obscene stats. If things remain unchanged I'm definitely not touching Unfair again. Will prob do first run on Hard and the second on Challeging + Lost Azlanti.

 

[Cryomancer]

Shit on Pillars of Eternity all you want, but it's undeniable that their solution is the best way to handle pre-buffs and summons in a computer game:

"i see a group of Will'o wisps that deal increased electric damage, but i will first engage combat before i cast protection from electricity" -> Makes perfectly sense... And some games did it(restrict some spells to combat only) far before PoE. Domination on Dark Sun Shattered Lands can't be used outside of combat. 5e with ATN and concentration did a better job with limiting the number of buffs.

Note that NOBODY considers Wizard on Pillars of Eternity good. Much less conjuration/necromancy(nonexistent in the game).

You can criticize Pathfinder All day. Pathfinder is extremely superior if you wanna be a necromancer than any modern game.

And Pathfinder in particular translates incredibly poorly to real-time with pause too. Way too many skills, effects, conditions, spells, characters making 5 attacks per round, all combining to making it quite the clusterfuck. Another page they could take from PoE, since they're so dead set on making a RtwP game, is incorporating the companion AI script system (that PoE itself borrowed from FFXII). Surrounded by one or more enemy: activate cleave. Ally lower than 50% HP: apply lay on hands. And so on and on. Makes the game a lot more manageable. 'Til then I don't see myself ever playing this without turn-based.

It can be translated to "too much things happens and is too much for my brain"

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Shit on Pillars of Eternity all you want, but it's undeniable that their solution is the best way to handle pre-buffs and summons in a computer game:

"i see a group of Will'o wisps that deal increased electric damage, but i will first engage combat before i cast protection from electricity" -> Makes perfectly sense... And some games did it(restrict some spells to combat only) far before PoE. Domination on Dark Sun Shattered Lands can't be used outside of combat.

Note that NOBODY considers Wizard on Pillars of Eternity good. Much less conjuration/necromancy(nonexistent in the game).

You can criticize Pathfinder All day. Pathfinder is extremely superior if you wanna be a necromancer than any modern game.

And Pathfinder in particular translates incredibly poorly to real-time with pause too. Way too many skills, effects, conditions, spells, characters making 5 attacks per round, all combining to making it quite the clusterfuck. Another page they could take from PoE, since they're so dead set on making a RtwP game, is incorporating the companion AI script system (that PoE itself borrowed from FFXII). Surrounded by one or more enemy: activate cleave. Ally lower than 50% HP: apply lay on hands. And so on and on. Makes the game a lot more manageable. 'Til then I don't see myself ever playing this without turn-based.

It can be translated to "too much things happens and is too much for my brain"

I've finished BG 1, 2 and ToB on SCS with all optional difficulty features turned on. They're both a much more difficult and enjoyable challenge than Kingmaker. I doubt my brain is the issue rather than the game having piss poor clarity and a ruleset that is inherently poor for RtwP adaptation. By the way, PoE 2 Wizards are incredibly good and versatile, I used them to great effect on my Path of the Damned playthrough. And the Chanter subclass that doubles the summons you get is pretty much borderline broken.

Finally, you're an insufferable cunt with a silly fetish for being the big bad evul necrumancer and rather poor communication skills. I hope you're at most a teen, because, if not, that's pretty sad. Cheers!

 

[Desiderius]

Except that in order to play Unfair you have to endure the first 8-10 or so levels of "will I get one-shot by a random crit and be forced to reload?" and "will my save-or-suck spell land so that I have a chance of beating this encounter or not?"

You can adjust the difficulty at any time. If you're asking that second question you need to turn down your difficulty.

 

[Cryomancer]

Finally, you're an insufferable cunt with a silly fetish for being the big bad evul necrumancer and rather poor communication skills. I hope you're at most a teen, because, if not, that's pretty sad. Cheers!

1 - English is not my native language.
2 - Everyone has his class preferences. Pinkeye for eg loves monks. The problem is that my preference is ALWAYS the most butchered stuff in every TTRPG adaptation
3 - If you think that translates poorly to RtWP, install the TB mod.

Anyway, i agree that BG1/2 has way better encounter and dungeon design. But PFKM has his merits.

And my point criticizing PoE is that the game propose is to be a spiritual success to BG but the game is inferior to BG in EVERY aspect(which doesn't means that the game is bad). Even the stronghold is extremely lackluster compared to NWN2 stronghold...


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About the stuff who leaked on chan, looks like you can't be a abyssal caster...

 

[amurath]

Here's some new Wrath of the Righteous alpha gameplay footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IFY2D1DpMM. The spell effects and environments look quite nice, and it seems like there's finally a rotatable camera.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Except that in order to play Unfair you have to endure the first 8-10 or so levels of "will I get one-shot by a random crit and be forced to reload?" and "will my save-or-suck spell land so that I have a chance of beating this encounter or not?"

You can adjust the difficulty at any time. If you're asking that second question you need to turn down your difficulty.

Is it really possible to beat a lot of the early encounters on Unfair without depending on several factors of RNG going your way? I guess part of the "issue" is that I stuck to story companions at all times, but still.

If the proper course of action is to lower difficulty regardless, seems quite strange that the Devs put on a difficulty setting that should only be turned on by the middle of the game.

And the second question is directly tied to the first one: enemies hit stupidly hard (200% damage) and bloated stats mean they hit with incredible consistency even against full tank characters besides taking quite a while to die. So the only way you can clear some encounters with even moderate consistency is by trying to get a save-or-suck spell early in a fight and then pray that a number of other dice rolls also go your way.

This is of course not considering things like stacking 4 instances of grease on the ground next to a mob before a fight starts or something of the sort. Unfair is cheesy difficulty and requires cheese to beat, either save scumming cheese or of the AoE spells stacking kind of deal. Nothing wrong with having a level of difficulty like this if they offered some proper non-degenerate difficulty setting that poses a good tactical challenge as well. But they don't.

 

[Pink Eye]

Gay-Lussac Desiderius does not play early unfair. He hates it.

 

[Desiderius]

Stats aren't obscene. Double damage is the sticking point. Either you build in enough redundancy/dominance to handle it or avoid OP abilities on your end and play Hard.

The latter is the sweet spot for me at this point, but would really like to see more mobs pre-buffed and using group synergies.

 

[Pink Eye]

He lowers the difficulty during the early game. Then brings it back up to Unfair once he reaches the appropriate level.

 

[Desiderius]

Gay-Lussac Desiderius does not play early unfair. He hates it.

I've been doing some on lvl 4/5 now for fun/testing. But yeah constant difficulty is Challenging Ch 1, Hard Ch 2, Unfair after Season.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Finally, you're an insufferable cunt with a silly fetish for being the big bad evul necrumancer and rather poor communication skills. I hope you're at most a teen, because, if not, that's pretty sad. Cheers!

1 - English is not my native language.
2 - Everyone has his class preferences. Pinkeye for eg loves monks. The problem is that my preference is ALWAYS the most butchered stuff in every TTRPG adaptation
3 - If you think that translates poorly to RtWP, install the TB mod.

Anyway, i agree that BG1/2 has way better encounter and dungeon design. But PFKM has his merits.

And my point criticizing PoE is that the game propose is to be a spiritual success to BG but the game is inferior to BG in EVERY aspect(which doesn't means that the game is bad). Even the stronghold is extremely lackluster compared to NWN2 stronghold...


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About the stuff who leaked on chan, looks like you can't be a abyssal caster...

Understandable, and lashing out at you was probably uncalled for but then again so was making me out to be a mouth breather because I said that Pathfinder translates poorly to RtwP. So I guess we're even.

I did download the TB mod and I think it makes the game way better, despite enjoying RtwP a lot in other titles. I never touched the turn-based mode for Pillars 2, for example. And I like Kingmaker either way (would not have put 400 hours into the game unmodded otherwise), but it's undeniable that the game has some visual readability issues.

 

[Desiderius]

Companions are superior to mercs, so no that's not why you were struggling. If you were talking about early game then yeah that's Unfair for you. If you're talking about anything after lvl 7 or so you've got some improvement to look forward to.

 

[Desiderius]

Unfortunately the info needed to follow the game closely is Opt In for P:K, so many have the impression that it is hard to follow in RTwP. If you turn on those settings and use the V key/Autopause sets it's easier to follow than PoE/BG2.

With rotating camera from mod/WotR even easier.

 

[Pink Eye]

Early unfair is a bitch. I nearly lost my sanity after wasting over one hundred hours of my life on Unfair Iron Man.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Companions are superior to mercs, so no that's not why you were struggling. If you were talking about early game then yeah that's Unfair for you. If you're talking about anything after lvl 7 or so you've got some improvement to look forward to.

I don't see how companions can be superior to a properly optimized fully custom built party at all aside from Ekundayo and Nok-Nok, who have ridiculous stats. How is Jubilost better than a merc Grenadier with muchkined stats? Amiri as a Barbarian with no archetype, 16 starting STR? Valerie with Bastard Sword proficency?

Like I said, past lvl 8-10 (you say 7, but hard to gauge what point in the game that is) the difficulty settles and you start to play the game at a reasonable pace. And then it even gets too easy during the barbarian chapter up all the way up to the House, with exception to some encounters on the assault on Pitax and that first world ruined keep in the mountains (forgot its name).