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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
As alignments are meta-properties, it's reasonable to assume your own character(which is separate from you) is not aware of their alignment.
Yep. They're a shorthand. A tool. It outright says this in the player's/DM's guide.
There is no way they can be meta properties when there is literally low levels spells and effects which can tell you what someone is.
It's a spell with somatic and verbal components, most people will not act favourably to a caster randomly starting to do somatic and verbal casting in their presence without explanation.

Besides, most characters are going to be pretty sure of what they are, and aren't going to care about the reality. The point is made in many APs where pointing out an NPC's alignment via detection spells will just be met with outright denial or even accusations of falsehood against the caster.
Conquer the world for good with this one easy trick! Chaotic Evils hate him!

So either everyone in the universe is too dumb to perform a simple background check or it runs on cartoon logic. And you know, fair enough, it doesn't make it terrible but it would be nice if alignments weren't dumb. I wish someone would make a game/story that takes their philosophical/metaphysical implications seriously* instead of just having it as an excuse for why it's ok to murder bandits/orcs/cultists.

* PS:T is the closest one I can think of, as it tangentially features things like the blood war, limbo and mechanus(or whatever the plane of pure law is called) but it's still pretty weaksauce.
 

Mortmal

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PKM on release was Troika-level, maybe even worse, since in their games endgame at least wasn't as bugged. Wrath would be a more traditional day 1 rpg release, most likely amount of bugs I predict would be in mythics and in all the tacticooly left out classes abilities and kits and spells, which they added because they look cool, but now someone has to code all that shit and we are idea guys, capable of writing polyamour romances, making borsch and that's it.

Has there ever been anything worse than PKM on release?

I've never played ANYTHING that shitty, genuine gamestopper bugs, actually remarkably poor on release.

Nope not a single worst release ever in human rpg history. But there's hardly any rpg so ambitious either , even in the classics there's not so many classes and features . It's very rare to get any kingdom management either. A shoestring budget and unknown developpers but it ends up far superior to POE1 or 2 .
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Strap Yourselves In
There is no way they can be meta properties when there is literally low levels spells and effects which can tell you what someone is.
They're a shorthand.

It's like if I say you're short, I'm not specifying your exact height, but I'm saying that you're shorter than average for classification purposes.

You may not think of yourself as short, but if I create a spell that kills all manlets within a certain radius, you'd best make your saving throws right quick. :M

So either everyone in the universe is too dumb to perform a simple background check or it runs on cartoon logic.
Not all NPCs are mages or clerics. Even if they were, casting know alignment is basically like forcing someone to let them read your mind. It's an invasion of privacy and will probably get you punched in the face, assuming they even recognize it and don't assume you're trying to curse them or something.

A Paladin can use detect evil, but that only gives him a vague sense of an evil aura, not an understanding of why it's there. Attacking random people because you *think* they're evil is pretty stupid and not in character for a lawful being.

Maybe Rejiek Hidesman is evil because he's the serial killer. Maybe he's evil because he kicks kittens in his spare time. You don't know. Hence why you'll be chided by the officer for just confronting him without evidence, but praised if you determined his guilt for a fact beforehand.

It's a world where good and evil exist and are somewhat quantifiable, not a cartoon where everyone writes good/evil on their resume.
And you know, fair enough, it doesn't make it terrible but it would be nice if alignments weren't dumb.
Most of the time, when I hear complaints about alignments, it's because people either don't understand them, or want to be a munchkin and do whatever they want in a setting with zero consequence or even the attempt at roleplaying an character.

Alignments are there as a mechanic to aid in roleplaying, to give substance to your character and NPCs, and to create reactivity from the world.

How do you know if you can wield Thor's hammer? You have to be worthy, right? But how is a DM (or a game) supposed to fairly and impartially judge whether or not you're worthy? He could read through all his notes and tally all of your actions, try to guess at the motivations of your character, even create a custom scoring system...or he could just check your alignment, assuming it hasn't changed over the course of your playthrough, and see whether or not it's Lawful Good at that point.

Again, it's a shorthand. A tool.
I wish someone would make a game/story that takes their philosophical/metaphysical implications seriously* instead of just having it as an excuse for why it's ok to murder bandits/orcs/cultists.
Planescape: Torment, Mask of the Betrayer too at times iirc.

* PS:T is the closest one I can think of, as it tangentially features things like the blood war, limbo and mechanus(or whatever the plane of pure law is called) but it's still pretty weaksauce.
Most game devs are focus on making games using the mechanics, not showcasing them and building a story around them. This is the correct approach btw.

Again, these concepts are there for quantification and structure. It's there to help the world react to your decisions, for you to quantify the sort of character you'll be roleplaying and for the DM (or the game) to know how to interpret your actions and who you are as a character.

Obviously, all of this can be done well or poorly, depending on the DM/developer. A bad DM will try to force your alignment on you, chide you for not roleplaying, make the entire world seem to know your alignment rather than a few special characters, monsters or items. A good one will present consequences for your choices, even potentially shifting your alignment because of a pattern of actions outside of your alignment. Such a change could and should affect your character in other ways too. The loss of experience points due to being screwed up in the head with guilt and/or confusion about who you are, for example, would be a normal consequence. A Paladin would lose his class, becoming a dishonored warrior thereafter. It's there to present meaningful reactivity.
 
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Anonymous Wife Scholar You better be in the next thread. Or you're squared!
Do not worry Monk anon it is okay Monk anon because you are my bestest friend forever anon! You are!
G0qZ1En.jpg
 

ArchAngel

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Anyone here that played both PKM at release and latest version of PWotR beta? Can you compare the state of the game between those two versions and do you feel that PWotR will be less buggy at release than PKM was?
Kingmaker was like a Troika game bugged, WotR is like Bethesda game bugged. Make of that what you will.
Bethesda level bugged is still terrible. I hope they release it in better state than that.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
More demons: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/3283382

Know Your Enemy, Part Two

Greetings, crusaders!

Last time, we talked about the most common types of demons you’re likely to encounter in the Worldwound. Today, we’ll be looking at some more of your potential enemies.

Abrikandilu

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Abrikandilus are born from the souls of mortals who used to destroy works of art and things of beauty out of pure envy.

Abrikandilus look like malformed hunchbacks with forked rat tails. Their bite is truly horrible and can leave mutilating wounds that don’t heal for a long time. In demon wars, abrikandilus typically act as foot soldiers who favor neither weapons nor armor — rather, their urge to destroy any and all displays of beauty works to demoralize the enemy.

The only thing that abrikandilus loathe more than beauty is looking at themselves in the mirror.
Vermlek

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Vermleks are born from the souls of those who once found pleasure in desecrating corpses — grave robbers, necromancers, and necrophiles.

Vermleks actually resemble large, four-tailed worms, but they are most commonly seen inhabiting bloated human bodies, which they wear like clothes and use as means of transportation. Even though vermleks are expendable troops in demon armies, their ability to control dead bodies often allows them to infiltrate the enemy's rear. This disguise, however, does not hold up to scrutiny — vermleks are not particularly good at using the vocal cords of the dead and have trouble with articulated speech. One can even see the vermlek itself through the open mouth of the corpse.

Left to their own devices, vermleks usually avoid warfare and prefer infiltrating mortal communities under the guise of laborers and gravediggers, indulging in the same vices that spawned them.

Schir

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Schirs, or spite demons, are born from the souls of mortals who committed heinous crimes (or framed others for them) for the sake of petty vengeance.

Schirs look like shaggy, goat-legged — and likewise goat-headed — humanoids. Among the denizens of the Abyss, schirs are known to have the foulest of tempers. They may not be too sharp, but they are strong, hardy, and hungry for battle. Schirs make up the backbone of the demonic hordes, and their fetid bardiches can infect their victims with terrible diseases.

Fledgling adventurers would do well to remember that it is impossible to trick a schir with an invisibility spell — and that it is best not to give it enough space for a charging attack...

Incubi and succubi

Incubi are born from the souls of sadists, sex criminals, and rapists.

Muscular and attractive humanoids with silky-smooth skin, curving horns, and wings — often decorated with piercing and tattoos — incubi prefer to act as advisors, executioners, and masters of torture to more powerful demons. However, that is not to say they shy away from battle, and the finesse with which they wield both weapons and magic makes them truly formidable opponents.

Incubi can easily assume the form of any humanoid of any gender, and thus make excellent spies and saboteurs.

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Succubi are born from souls depraved by lust.

Their appearance is that of a gorgeous woman, whose demonic nature is reflected in their leathery wings, tail, and tiny horns.

Like incubi, they are not exactly fond of combat, as they prefer seducing mortals with their unholy gifts and sinful pleasures in order to bring them to their fall and inevitable demise. Although succubi and incubi share a fascination with sex and perversion, it is hard to mistake one for the other because of the differences in their methods of bringing societies to ruin — incubi act brutishly and aggressively, whereas succubi favor a softer, subtler approach.

Invidiak, or Shadow Demon

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Invidiaks are born from the souls of mortals steeped in envy and jealousy, and they are the main source of stories about so-called "demonic possession." Their most distinctive trait is their ability to take over the bodies of their enemies and manipulate them like living puppets.

It is difficult to describe the appearance of a shadow demon, for its form is ever-shifting, blending in with the surrounding darkness. What one can make out for certain are its leathery wings, glinting fangs — and a whole lot of sharp claws.

There is another reason why these demons are dangerous — they are incorporeal, which makes them impervious to ordinary steel. What is more, invidiaks possess powerful magic, capable of materializing forms from the Shadow Plane, while still being deadly in melee combat.

Sunlight is the only salvation from a shadow demon, as it becomes helpless when exposed to it — and some particularly powerful spells that conjure sunlight can even expel a shadow demon from the body it has possessed.

Kalavakus, or Horned Demon

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Kalavakuses are born from the souls of slavers.

They look like massive, muscular purple beasts covered head to toe in pointed horns.

Oddly enough, in the Abyss kalavakuses occupy themselves with more or less the same activities as when they were alive — trading in slaves. They possess a variety of means of enslaving both souls and wills. Even worse: if they succeed in their attempts to enslave their opponent’s soul, the creature's death nourishes the kalavakus with power and heals its wounds.

Coloxus

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Coloxus, or fly demons, are born from the souls of vain and narcissistic mortals whose heedless egocentricity led to disaster or tragedy.

These demons look like humanoid figures with a grotesque fly head and insectile wings. They typically serve as envoys and diplomats to some of the mightier demons and are known for being incredibly patient and refined — by demon standards. They see themselves as the elite of the "high society" of demonkind.

Coloxus have access to powerful spells, and prefer fighting from behind the backs of sturdier demons.

Oh, and mirrors? Coloxus hate those too.

Omox

5108a6d67d67dffd6a784b23f0c98c64_original.png

Omoxes are born from the souls of mortals who defiled objects of beauty and worship with filth and excrement.

An omox looks like a formless mass of slime and filth that occasionally assumes a vaguely recognizable human form. Dangerous both in melee and at range, omoxes can swiftly catch up to their prey in damp environments, and their strikes coat enemies in a filthy slime that restricts movement.

Glabrezu, or Treachery Demon

1ac2be16f05c4306cde5a26a5bc3bb38_original.png

Glabrezus are born from the souls of traitors.

A glabrezu's appearance masks its true nature perfectly. Bulky monsters with chitin-covered claws on the outside, they are, in fact, cunning and cruel manipulators. That being said, glabrezus also possess strong illusion magic that lets them take on any guise they desire. They use their ability to grant wishes to mortals as an instrument of temptation and degradation, twisting the mortal's wish in a way that would make its fulfillment bring about the greatest amount of suffering and ruin.

Powerful spellcasters and brutal melee combatants, glabrezus strike fear into the hearts of even the bravest of heroes.

Oolioddroo

3d19ed79aa9cd9af5dfadcffc28161ef_original.png

Oolioddroo are born from the souls of mortals who controlled the minds of innocents to make them commit horrific misdeeds. Usually these mortals were powerful mages in life, so it is hardly surprising that their soul transforms into a powerful demonic manipulator.

Oolioddroo look like a sickly female figure with the head of a moth, dragonfly wings, and a long proboscis. Their distinctive feature is their ability to implant larvae into the brains of their victims in order to manipulate their mind later on. Expert brainwashers and aficionados of mind-affecting spells, oolioddroo are incredibly dangerous and can make sleeper agents out of unsuspecting crusaders with remarkable ease.

Frail physically, these demons fight by means of their magic and the creatures they’ve enslaved.

Nalfeshnee

a3e40e672e493c922544aa4c6d0b6dd6_original.png

Nalfeshnees are born from the souls of covetous rulers.

They look like massive, corpulent beasts with the head of a boar and a set of tiny wings.

Nalfeshnees are a wealth of unholy knowledge, which makes them popular targets of summoning rituals performed by desperate mages seeking new revelations and paths to power.

If there is one thing that can be said for certain about nalfeshnees, it is that they are unequaled in their understanding of the inner workings of the Abyss as a living organism. Their allegiances typically lie not with some demon lord, but rather with the Abyss as a whole. They guard its secrets, preserve its very essence, and receive mysterious blessings from it.

A special caste of nalfeshnees known as Curators act as sentinels and keepers of the Rift of Repose — the mysterious, hidden corner of the Abyss where the souls of slain demon lords gather.

Lilitu

0e86471e1889aa32bc4ebb936df3e9d8_original.png

Lilitu are born from the souls of mortals who used seduction to push their own kind to sin.

Lilitu look like alluring women with horns, hooves, a snake tail, and a face... with no eyes. However, thanks to their ability to wear other people like clothes, they never have any trouble looking their best. Lilitu, like succubi, prefer infiltrating mortal communities and destroying them from within, corrupting their morals and customs.

Lilitu have an abundance of tools at their disposal for their unholy activities — from powerful magic to clever psychological manipulation. They quite often answer directly to a demon lord, performing the kinds of sensitive tasks that typically do not involve brute force.

Vavakia

052a6d75dc49436bce23ba7695f68ed7_original.png

The first vavakias were constructed personally by the Mother of Beasts, Lamashtu, and she used her own womb to carry them. The Abyss soon absorbed this concept and began spawning new vavakias from the souls of mortals who violated other creatures' souls in some way in their lifetime, such as by extracting, enslaving, or consuming.

The lower part of a vavakia's body is that of a giant four-legged dinosaur, and their upper body is a demonic humanoid torso. Their head resembles that of a dragon — a nightmarish combination of horns and fangs.

Vavakias take pleasure in serving as the strike force that penetrates enemy defenses and annihilates their fortifications — these demons revel in simple, pure destruction. When facing a vavakia, one should watch out for its breath, which can quite literally incinerate mortals and drive them mad.

Whenever vavakias emerge on the Material Plane it is a calamity, and dealing with it is at times beyond the capabilities of an entire nation, for these monsters are capable of sowing ruin on an unimaginable scale.

----

Not all demons come from larvae. For instance:

Cambion

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Red-skinned, horned humanoids with forked tongue, cambions do not grow from larvae. Instead, they appear as a result of an abominable union between incubi and mortals (succubi's partners tend not to survive copulation). Few cambions reach maturity in the brutal environment of the Abyss, but those who do survive can rise to impressive heights.

The greatest numbers of cambions can be encountered in the Porphyry City, Alushinyrra, the realm of the demon lord Nocticula. The reason for this is that Nocticula favors those who take newborn cambions under their protection, thus allowing them to reach maturity.

Quasit

e01b340d25e0f13879ddf2b0f07c9b30_original.png

Tiny winged demons with twisted horns, quasits manifest themselves through a familiar-summoning ritual performed by a spellcaster. As part of the ritual, the spellcaster sacrifices a small fragment of their soul, which then serves as the catalyst for the quasit's birth. In the numerous cases where the quasit outlives its master, it claims their soul and seeks to find its way back to the Abyss.

Vrolikai

1b7088c9941440ffa9dcc1c36254121b_original.png

A vrolikai — the final stage in the evolution of a nabasu — is a large, four-armed monster that resembles a bat. It possesses all the abilities of a nabasu, which it has honed to perfection. Vrolikai are some of the mightiest demons in the Abyss and generally serve directly under a demon lord.

-----

One should not take demons for a brainless, chaotic force that seeks nothing but destruction — even though their appearance may suggest as much. Demons' foremost aspiration is not just to murder and obliterate as it would seem at first glance, but to cultivate sins in mortal souls; to corrupt and erode their morals and ethical codes. A mortal who dies to the claws of a demon can be considered lucky, for their soul is free to be reborn — but those who have succumbed to the pernicious influence of corruption are doomed to join the demonic ranks after death, which is the true goal of demonkind.

Fierce battles are waged ceaselessly where the Abyss borders Hell and Heaven, as well as Abaddon, due to the constant expansion of the Abyss — and it is the sinful souls of mortals that fuels the growth of this interplanar tumor.

e94639ac9cc5d71687fc3070884fa252_original.png

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Our good friends at Stranger Comics have just had a Kickstarter launch for their Niobe Pathfinder 1e Module and Niobe comic series, NIOBE & DURA: Wrath of the Ancient, THE UNTAMED and MORKA MOA – all set in the dark fantasy world of Asunda (in development at HBO). If you like great art, story, and adventure, this is for you! Artists include David Mack (Echo), Jae Lee (The Dark Tower), and Hyoung (The Last of Us).

11e946c634d479670a80f63fa33a9e66_original.jpg

Please check their Kickstarter page for more information!
 

Nikanuur

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I know the game is not out yet but, what would like guys like the next pathfinder be based on? I would love to play the iron gods adventure path
Premise: Lamashtu between two ferns.
Story: Quinn's rebel years (after an amnesia ofc)
Ending: PC accepting or denying the possibility to take the free will from anybody on Golarion
 

Delterius

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I would love to play the iron gods adventure path
its a possibility. and to be quite honest i am going to ignore it. pathfinder lore is not very good, but the whole 'actually did you know the starstone was a mega weapon of the many space civilizations of androids and humans and fish people that inhabit the cosmos? also androids are everywhere on golarion. no the space people won't show up' takes the cake, bakes another one, and eats it too.
 

Thonius

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I would love to play the iron gods adventure path
its a possibility. and to be quite honest i am going to ignore it. pathfinder lore is not very good, but the whole 'actually did you know the starstone was a mega weapon of the many space civilizations of androids and humans and fish people that inhabit the cosmos? also androids are everywhere on golarion. no the space people won't show up' takes the cake, bakes another one, and eats it too.
Golarion lore is shiete. They should've separate their version of forgotten realms with other shit, this mash of universes is making me cringe big time making it hard to well take it seriously. That's why I decided to treat each iteration of PFK games as a separate entity( makes it EZ to ignore inane shit) and that's why I don't want any cameos from the previous games.
I keep clicking the "PLAY" button on GOG non stop and it doesn't work!!!
Release date - 02.09.21
 

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think Strange Aeons would be a more interesting AP to do next.

It has a ton of horror themed locations and the final book is set entirely on Carcosa.

Also the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures would probably translate better to a CRPG than the tabletop.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I mean isnt the Orc baby only moral dilema because it does offer opportunity(throught not guranteed) to basically have nurture overcome nature ? as in only baby can be non evil and even then its not guranteed and you need to really work for it ?
It's predicated on the idea that a baby is innocent until it later chooses good or evil. However, orcs are of evil alignment. They're evil from birth. The only reason an orc baby doesn't rape and/or kill you on sight is because it's a just baby.

Then you have your own children and realize it’s not just orcs. That’s why it’s necessary to raise them.
 

Thonius

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I think Strange Aeons would be a more interesting AP to do next.

It has a ton of horror themed locations and the final book is set entirely on Carcosa.

Also the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures would probably translate better to a CRPG than the tabletop.
I think they should expand the non-combat part of their games akin to BG3(without jumping ofc), in general, expand systems, maybe add fly and other shit(like in solasta) add races and classes.
 

Dishonoredbr

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I hope it unlocks today midnight, crazy hype to make a Demon Quarterstaff Monk.

Btw did the Demon path got better? I heard that Demon and Angel paths are super lackluster compared to the rest.
 

ArchAngel

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I think Strange Aeons would be a more interesting AP to do next.

It has a ton of horror themed locations and the final book is set entirely on Carcosa.

Also the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures would probably translate better to a CRPG than the tabletop.
I think they should expand the non-combat part of their games akin to BG3(without jumping ofc), in general, expand systems, maybe add fly and other shit(like in solasta) add races and classes.
Fuck that, BG3 combat is more of a gimick than something interesting. It was shit in their previous games, it is still shit.
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I hope it unlocks today midnight, crazy hype to make a Demon Quarterstaff Monk.

Btw did the Demon path got better? I heard that Demon and Angel paths are super lackluster compared to the rest.

It did. They’re not lol.
 

LannTheStupid

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Regarding the alignments.

So wargames were known for more than 200 years now. The German played them; the British played them; and then they moved to 'Murica. There wargames were scaled down from platoon or squad level to individual units and the alignment was born. It seems you cannot stop being a puritan if you have Mayflower in your national myths, even if you are Gary Gygax.

As the result, my personal piece of advice for anyone who for some reason reads this: if you are not an American or you do not belong to one of American protestant sects ignore the alignment in games. It was made by puritans for puritans; for the rest of the humankind there is nothing there.
 

Thonius

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I think Strange Aeons would be a more interesting AP to do next.

It has a ton of horror themed locations and the final book is set entirely on Carcosa.

Also the optional sanity rules from Horror Adventures would probably translate better to a CRPG than the tabletop.
I think they should expand the non-combat part of their games akin to BG3(without jumping ofc), in general, expand systems, maybe add fly and other shit(like in solasta) add races and classes.
Fuck that, BG3 combat is more of a gimick than something interesting. It was shit in their previous games, it is still shit.
I'm talking about things OTHER than combat. Like camouflage in BG3 or teleportation, levitation, speak with dead, create food etc etc etc etc

The Nexus page for WotR is live, mostly portrait packs, for now: https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous

Edit: When does the game unlock?
Already logged in! In CE now...
 

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