Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cryomancer]

I talked with one of the devs about the gunslinger class and he said that they don't implement it because it's so powerfull that it makes all other ranged weapons useless.

Well, a arquebus requires a very long time to reload and earlier firearms was extremely expensive. That said, more arrow types could be a good welcome. For eg, imagine putting bodkin arrow which has -2 damage penalty BUT +4 to hit(since it can easier pierce armor), a broadhead arrow which is the opposite and Knights of the Chalice style magical slaying arrows. Poison arrows could be a interesting addon That can make archers good because archers deserve some love. There are very few RPG's which did a good job with archers. Dragon's Dogma is one among then.

PS : I talk far more about sorcery on RPG's than firearms because there are almost no RPG which did a good job with firearms but i love firearms and despite not owning any one, spended a lot of money traveling to neighbor countries with more gun freedom only to visit firing ranges. I live close to the border luckily.

PS 2 : I rather not seeing Gunslinger class than seeing a nerfed gunslinger.

 

[Desiderius]

I talked with one of the devs about the gunslinger class and he said that they don't implement it because it's so powerfull that it makes all other ranged weapons useless.

Well, a arquebus requires a very long time to reload and earlier firearms was extremely expensive. That said, more arrow types could be a good welcome. For eg, imagine putting bodkin arrow which has -2 damage penalty BUT +4 to hit(since it can easier pierce armor), a broadhead arrow which is the opposite and Knights of the Chalice style magical slaying arrows. Poison arrows could be a interesting addon That can make archers good because archers deserve some love. There are very few RPG's which did a good job with archers. Dragon's Dogma is one among then.

PS : I talk far more about sorcery on RPG's than firearms because there are almost no RPG which did a good job with firearms but i love firearms and despite not owning any one, spended a lot of money traveling to neighbor countries with more gun freedom only to visit firing ranges. I live close to the border luckily.

PS 2 : I rather not seeing Gunslinger class than seeing a nerfed gunslinger.

PoE RT does a good job with firearms. P:K already features a wide array of specialty arrows if you don’t believe the hype and actually play the KM piece. You can request one of your artisans to make them for you.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I don't get "balancefags".

I think we should begin using the term "design framework" or similar, rather than "balance", which is often conflated with vile Sawyerism.

In the Baldur's Gate saga, the 2HP mage with one spell can be killed by a housecat in Candlekeep, but later solo dragons, liches, and extraplanar hordes. Even still, that same mage is also only ever one roll away from obliteration. The system permits extremes, but they require understanding of the games mechanics to utilize. It is actually balanced, because it has a coherent design framework, without suffering from vile Sawyerism.

When getting into issues like stat bloat on PF:KM, or bonanza crafting in ToEE, it destabilizes the design framework through inflation of abilities and resources that the mechanics were not intended to ordinarily handle. That is the distinction that some of us have been trying to make.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't get "balancefags".

I think we should begin using the term "design framework" or similar, rather than "balance", which is often conflated with vile Sawyerism.

In the Baldur's Gate saga, the 2HP mage with one spell can be killed by a housecat in Candlekeep, but later solo dragons, liches, and extraplanar hordes. Even still, that same mage is also only ever one roll away from obliteration. The system permits extremes, but they require understanding of the games mechanics to utilize. It is actually balanced, because it has a coherent design framework, without suffering from vile Sawyerism.

When getting into issues like stat bloat on PF:KM, or bonanza crafting in ToEE, it destabilizes the design framework through inflation of abilities and resources that the mechanics were not intended to ordinarily handle. That is the distinction that some of us have been trying to make.

And yet the resources exist to (more than) handle any challenge within P:K mechanics, as I’ve so autistically demonstrated.

You’ve got the wrong perp.

You fall back on ordinarily, but the irony is that it can be done quite readily by autoleveled companions. The people who get into trouble are those like Porky who try to force their own preconceptions onto the design.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spoiler

I don't get "balancefags".

I think we should begin using the term "design framework" or similar, rather than "balance", which is often conflated with vile Sawyerism.

In the Baldur's Gate saga, the 2HP mage with one spell can be killed by a housecat in Candlekeep, but later solo dragons, liches, and extraplanar hordes. Even still, that same mage is also only ever one roll away from obliteration. The system permits extremes, but they require understanding of the games mechanics to utilize. It is actually balanced, because it has a coherent design framework, without suffering from vile Sawyerism.

When getting into issues like stat bloat on PF:KM, or bonanza crafting in ToEE, it destabilizes the design framework through inflation of abilities and resources that the mechanics were not intended to ordinarily handle. That is the distinction that some of us have been trying to make.

And yet the resources exist to (more than) handle any challenge within P:K mechanics, as I’ve so autistically demonstrated.

You’ve got the wrong perp.

You fall back on ordinarily, but the irony is that it can be done quite readily by autoleveled companions. The people who get into trouble are those like Porky who try to force their own preconceptions onto the design.

I haven't had any trouble either. I have a thorough understanding of the Pathfinder system. Kingmakers two saving graces are that PF is a sprawling bootstrapped system that can be readily taken advantage of, and that Owlcat also lavishes the player with "stat-stick" items.

Its one reason why melee is more enjoyable in PF:KM, contrary to most CRPG experiences. Melee can overcome bloat with bloat, but spellcasters far less so. I'm not saying that the experience should be gently and perfectly curated, but the D20 dice system requires a certain amount of consistency to remain coherent.

Consider this:

Spoiler

Vordakai, an ancient lich from a superior age with an unholy relic gifted from a deity. Even after slogging through his large dungeon without resting once, my party defeated him in 2, maybe 3 rounds?

Compare that to any Lich or mundane mage in the BG saga. D&D 3.0 focused on thresholds for defensive spells and damage reduction. 10/adamantine DR with stoneskin vs negating one physical attack per lvl in AD&D. A PC having +15 STR won't change that outcome much in 2E, but will roll through a mage in 3E. Its why Mirror Image is still fantastic, because it didn't change much. Scale matters a great deal in D20 systems.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean give Vord some Plague Storms, Wails, and pre-buffs and things could go differently.

That's just the unrealized potential of the AI, not the system itself. That said, unless you're really on top of your game things can go poorly for you with Vord on Unfair even as is. ​

And spellcasters have their own means to overcome the supposed bloat too.

As with everything else, it's about teamwork. Here it's Harrim giving the boss -2 Saves via Archon's Aura then making him reroll all Saves with Touch of Chaos.

 

[Cryomancer]

Melee can overcome bloat with bloat, but spellcasters far less so. I'm not saying that the experience should be gently and perfectly curated, but the D20 dice system requires a certain amount of consistency to remain coherent.

But spell casters have a lot of powerful tools to deal with inflated enemy stats. You can't just rely on a single spell to end the encounter. You need to be smart. For eg, instead of just casting finger of death or sirroco, put enemies under the effect of a cloudkill while they are distracted by weaker summons. If you can maintain the enemy 5 rounds inside a cloudkill, you can lower his CON up to 20 points(unlikely but expect a 10 pt reduction is fine) and thus, making his hit points and FORT saves far smaller. Summoned soul eaters can damage enemy WIS, few soul eaters can mean that a tough cleric will no longer be a problem. And so on.

Spells can also buff your non casters. Legendary proportions on a min maxed warrior is a huge buff.

Your spells are still viable on unfair. They just much more situational and requiring combos and strategy to work.

 

[jungl]

How would you guys build a damage based kinetic knight asking for a friend.

 

[Rat King]

How would you guys build a damage based kinetic knight asking for a friend.

Can't really go wrong with an energy based element, don't forget to pick up weapon focus: kinetic blast. Watch out when you respec though, there's a bug where when you respec you can't unequip your kinetic weapon.

 

[Cryomancer]

OwlCat added more elements to Kineticists on alpha or said anything about kineticist on end game? Aether, Void and Wood seems amazing...

 

[Desiderius]

How would you guys build a damage based kinetic knight asking for a friend.

Can't really go wrong with an energy based element, don't forget to pick up weapon focus: kinetic blast. Watch out when you respec though, there's a bug where when you respec you can't unequip your kinetic weapon.

Physical does more damage than Energy and doesn't have to worry about Spell Pen. Not sure why you'd care about Weapon Focus, it's only +1 to hit.

The thing about Knight is that it feels a little weak at first but Kinetic Blade gets iteratives where Kinetic Blast doesn't so you can catch up there, although you'll be using Whirlwind a lot once you get that. Energy uses Touch AC so against high AC foes it does help to have that as an option to land those iteratives.

Water gives you a nice Shield/Mage Armor that can get pretty high, an infinite one-round Grease (you can spend Burn to give it duration but why?), and Bull Rush feats without prereqs that are fun with Whirlwind (triggers AoOs for everyone).

Earth gives you decent DR, Trip feats that also go well with Whirlwind, and Magnetic Infusion that can give your team +4 to hit.

Fire has Dazzling Display, Shatter, Dreadful as bonus feats

Air lets you use Celerity to build burn which in effect gives you access to Haste earlier than you otherwise would get it. Bonus Feats go well with Crane Wing stuff.

Basically Knight trades ranged AoE Infusions for AoE centered on yourself with Whirlwind, Iteratives, and a couple defensive abilities.

 

[Rat King]

How would you guys build a damage based kinetic knight asking for a friend.

Can't really go wrong with an energy based element, don't forget to pick up weapon focus: kinetic blast. Watch out when you respec though, there's a bug where when you respec you can't unequip your kinetic weapon.

Physical does more damage than Energy and doesn't have to worry about Spell Pen. Not sure why you'd care about Weapon Focus, it's only +1 to hit.

The thing about Knight is that it feels a little weak at first but Kinetic Blade gets iteratives where Kinetic Blast doesn't so you can catch up there, although you'll be using Whirlwind a lot once you get that. Energy uses Touch AC so against high AC foes it does help to have that as an option to land those iteratives.

Water gives you a nice Shield/Mage Armor that can get pretty high, an infinite one-round Grease (you can spend Burn to give it duration but why?), and Bull Rush feats without prereqs that are fun with Whirlwind (triggers AoOs for everyone).

Earth gives you decent DR, Trip feats that also go well with Whirlwind, and Magnetic Infusion that can give your team +4 to hit.

Fire has Dazzling Display, Shatter, Dreadful as bonus feats

Air lets you use Celerity to build burn which in effect gives you access to Haste earlier than you otherwise would get it. Bonus Feats go well with Crane Wing stuff.

Basically Knight trades ranged AoE Infusions for AoE centered on yourself with Whirlwind, Iteratives, and a couple defensive abilities.

Weapon focus is a nice boost early game, but I guess you could probably skip it. I mainly mentioned it so he knew it was an option, as I didn't know first time around that kinetic blast focus would also work on kinetic blade.

IMO targeting touch AC is leagues better than the extra damage, since the extra damage AFAIK is only half of your constitution modifier, so unless you're going to be hitting 95% of the time anyway, getting that extra hit chance will (probably) increase your damage output overall.

 

[Desiderius]

you're going to be hitting 95% of the time

Planning on it, at least by mid game, tho then you start hitting iteratives. Nice to have access to an Energy option before then for things like Big Bokken.

It’s ultimately more about the better Infusions you get with Physical, though the damage does add up too and you don’t have to worry about Spell Pen.

I got pretty annoyed that you don’t get any AoOs yourself, so make sure you’re not planning your group around that. I did do a stupid Vivi 2/Barb 2/KKnight Earth build with two bites and Trip cloak on top of Pushing Infusion I think.

 

[Rat King]

you're going to be hitting 95% of the time

Planning on it, at least by mid game, tho then you start hitting iteratives.

How the hell do you manage that? (I'm a complete scrub at character building lol)

By the way, I forgot to mention that you should probably get weapon finesse and focus on dex instead of strength since constitution determines damage anyway.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

S0rcererV1ct0r Obviously, spell combinations are important, and even desirable. BG, the CRPG wizardry golden standard, has this in spades.

Evolving from 2E to 3.5E had some trade offs. HP doubled without any proportionate damage die improvement, so blasting is now sub-optimal. Save or Die/Suck spells became practical at mid and high levels because you could finally effect the save. That had been a problem in 2E. Even still, the design intent kept it bounded.

Inflation of enemy stats significantly changes the how effective your limited spells will be. Basically, every +1 is -5% off your success rate, which designed around a base 50%ish chance rate. At the sheer volume of combat PFKM has, and tendency to inflate stats, that's a disservice that is noticable.

I don't want to exaggerate the difficulty, or come off as whining. Its all still very doable in KM, particularly by late game (due to items). I'm just trying to convey that the game pushes the dice mechanics outside their intended scope due to stat bloat, which has consequences. That is all.

 

[Desiderius]

you're going to be hitting 95% of the time

Planning on it, at least by mid game, tho then you start hitting iteratives.

How the hell do you manage that? (I'm a complete scrub at character building lol)

By the way, I forgot to mention that you should probably get weapon finesse and focus on dex instead of strength since constitution determines damage anyway.

You don't sound like a scrub to me. Weapon Focus isn't the worst idea since you already know what weapon you'll be using all game and it is a prereq for Shatter Defenses (Fire isn't the best element for KKnight).

How do I manage it?

Bard and Freebooter, with help from Cleric and Alchemist.

As for Finesse that's solid for Kalikke, she's lvl 13 with four levels of Thug here:

But for MC you're better off using STR to take advantage of the Size boost you get with Elemental Overflow.

 

[Rat King]

you're going to be hitting 95% of the time

Planning on it, at least by mid game, tho then you start hitting iteratives.

How the hell do you manage that? (I'm a complete scrub at character building lol)

By the way, I forgot to mention that you should probably get weapon finesse and focus on dex instead of strength since constitution determines damage anyway.

You don't sound like a scrub to me. Weapon Focus isn't the worst idea since you already know what weapon you'll be using all game and it is a prereq for Shatter Defenses (Fire isn't the best element for KKnight).

How do I manage it?

Bard and Freebooter, with help from Cleric and Alchemist.

As for Finesse that's solid for Kalikke, she's lvl 13 with four levels of Thug here:

View attachment 13231
But for MC you're better off using STR to take advantage of the Size boost you get with Elemental Overflow.

Going to have to disagree with the first part, because I didn't even consider a large part of what you said, I do appreciate it though.
I have to complement your decision to give her levels in thug by the way, since you barely lose any damage and still reap a lot of benefits from that class.

This conversation pretty much motivated me to play this game again, so thanks for that since I'm probably going to lose another 150 hours of my life. I would rate your posts with the brofists it deserves, if only I could.

 

[Cryomancer]

Evolving from 2E to 3.5E had some trade offs. HP doubled without any proportionate damage die improvement, so blasting is now sub-optimal. Save or Die/Suck spells became practical at mid and high levels because you could finally effect the save. That had been a problem in 2E. Even still, the design intent kept it bounded.

Inflation of enemy stats significantly changes the how effective your limited spells will be. Basically, every +1 is -5% off your success rate, which designed around a base 50%ish chance rate. At the sheer volume of combat PFKM has, and tendency to inflate stats, that's a disservice that is noticable.

Yes, 3e doubled the hp on higher level for PC's and inflated even more for mobs, adult/ancient dragons which had around 200 hp on 2e and on 3e had around 500 hp. And evasion/improved evasion really hurted most evocation spells. But one type of spell which received a huge buff is persistent effects. Spells lasts way longer on 3.5e. And pathfinder has a lot of powerful spells. For eg, a lv 20 sorcerer can put 13d6 damage with a lv 2 spell( 3d6 + 10d6 -> Boneshaker), Ice Prison can be quite deadly vs enemies who can't pass the STR check. I defeated the captor by casting it and running with haste and then, alt tabbing. And sirroco? Lasts 1 round per level and deals 4d6 + CL up to 44 damage per round. Can knock creatures prone and make then fatigued or exhausted. It combed with Ice prison can deal 64 damage per round and lasts a eternity. With a cloudkill, each turn makes then more unlikely to break free.... And if you have a kineticist on party to cast deadly earth...

Not mentioning that on pathfinder, each bloodline gives a lot of powerful things. Including immunities at higher level and a abyssal sorcerer can be a amazing conjurer, a undead sorcerer can benefit from the DR/magic on earlier levels to have a way less painful chapter 1. Not mentioning D6 hit dice instead of D4(3.5e). I love it but also believe that each bloodline should come with a drawback,. Eg, silver draconic can't learn any spell with fire descriptor and has vulnerability to fire. Undead has vulnerability to radiant damage. Abyssal can be enraged if fails a concentration check and so on. Creatures with immunities come with drawbacks, why with the PC's it should be different? Is not because "muh balance", i just think that having weaknesses are interesting as having advantages.

Here is a guy soloing lantern king as a sorcerer with some subclasses.



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About WoTR specific, anyone knows if at least the mythic paths come with drawbacks? If liches are vulnerable to radiant damage for eg?

 

[Lawntoilet]

Spells don't always last longer in 3.5e.
Many buffs do, but Charm Person for example lasted indefinitely in AD&D and you only got the chance to save once per day at best (if you have 19+ Int) and once per 3 months at worst (if you have 3 Int).

 

[Cryomancer]

Spells don't always last longer in 3.5e.

Yep. I was talking about combat spells. Like incendiary cloud.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Spells don't always last longer in 3.5e.

Yep. I was talking about combat spells. Like incendiary cloud.

Charm Person in AD&D is a combat spell when you're fighting a group with a heavy-hitting martial, it is more like Dominate.
But yeah DOT spells and buffs usually last at least as long, if not longer, in 3.5e.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

can I charm npcs and get additional dialogue yet or is this still missing tons of features that were in baldur's gate

 

[Luckmann]

By the way, has there been any news on the race vote? I haven't been keeping up, on account of the whole "don't have a computer" thing.

Efe There is the Green Dragon though:

But no pink dragons.

Spoiler

Aside from the one I homebrewed a week ago or whatever.

can I charm npcs and get additional dialogue yet or is this still missing tons of features that were in baldur's gate

Nope. We will probably never see such a gem again in our lifetimes.

 

[Ontopoly]

If I was a dragon I think I would be Silver

 

[Ghulgothas]

A shame we're locked into Metallic Dragons instead of Chromatic.