Incline Path of Exile II - early access begins December 6th

[Jaedar]

You don't have to play "meta" to clear Incursions. I literally cleared Incursions on my homebrew SSF self-casting Arc ffs lol.

Trust me, the level of the anti-zoom crowd's delusions is big enough that they'll look at your RF gameplay and call it zoom-zoom. Unless your progress is a glacial task of name-locking zombies and killing them in three hits, you're zooming.

This is a good observation actually. For some people killing white mobs giving a shit counts as zooming, for some taking 10s to kill a rare mob feels glacial. Better to stick to specifics.

(Imagine thinking arc counts as an off meta skill, just because it's no longer super amazing. It's one of the most basic spells in poe imo)

. Unless your progress is a glacial task of name-locking zombies and killing them in three hits, you're zooming.

This i also don't get - if you do this in basically any game, even D1, you'd stilll get less loot as compared to 'zoom-zoom' (170% runspeed javazon, teleporting mage that spams flamewall / hydra that clears whole screen) per hour etc and you'd stilll be disadvantaged (loosing time etc whatever people feel that they are lacking). Unless the game actively punishes you for more efficient gameplay (or uses something like P2W 'pay for one-time access to the game' shenanigans) , it'd still be slanted in favour of zoom-zoom

I think the difference is that in D1 there are no pinnacle bosses or story content or what have you locked behind massive wealth requirements. Sure, a zoom zoomer can farm dozens of baals per hour (or w/e people do in diablo) and a slow build might take 20 hours to kill baal the first time, but 20 hours is not an insane time investment to beat the game. A slow build in poe will take hundreds of hours to see the main content (just beating the campaign doesn't count, it's not for nothing all the redditors want to be able to skip it).

I think this is a division in single player / mmo style play. Except PoE doesn't have a clear demarker between "raid content" and "normal content".

Those should be trivial for any half-decent build regardless of gearing.

I agree that incursion is not high bar (I do occasionally fumble it during certain map modifiers and/or clunky leveling builds). And if you don't have the dps to clear it your build isn't good enough to reach high end maps anyway. But along with regen mods it is also the first place the game will just go "no" if you are on a low dps build. So it always gets highlighted, because it's the most visible place where the game will go "you need to be at least this zoomy to ride".

The real discussion should be whether it is good or bad design for an aRPG to have this kind of minimum required dps checks that can't be compensated by grit and tankyness.

 

[Israfael]

Sure, a zoom zoomer can farm dozens of baals per hour (or w/e people do in diablo)

If we are talking about D2, there is even more disparity - hammerdin / javazon / zerker barb vs basically everything else (because 1 and 3 can ignore basically any resists (all of them before 1.13 or 1.14) and javazon is clearing map 10 times more efficiently even with lightning immunes taken into the picture). There is no such hard barrier in PoE, you can either win by zdps or zhp if you are autistic enough. Also, I'm not sure if D2 ubers can be killled 'in sane time' with these not-so-powerful builds.

for an aRPG to have this kind of minimum required dps checks that can't be compensated by grit and tankyness.

What hard DPS checks are there in POE? I'd say there's survivability checks on most ubers (including the 'normal' uber elder) as well as traverse-skill/movement speed checks, but it's a clear cut bonus content that you have to manually enable (and it's emphasized that it's extremely hard).

 

[Damned Registrations]

No? lol. Again, I understand that you're struggling with the game when, in search of something to illustrate the game's issues, you highlight fucking Incursions. Those should be trivial for any half-decent build regardless of gearing.

I mean, I highlighted them because they're the easiest shit out there and they still fuck me over maybe 1 in 5 times while I'm trying to build a weak character up. I'm simply not buying this 'I have a SSF character that tanks 20k damage and also clears double defensive AN mobs in 1 second using an off meta skill' shit. That doesn't happen. You did not throw a couple dozen chaos orbs at your gear and get +6 to arc and +400 health and capped all resists and block. If you can full clear the incursions 100% of the time and tank a hit from a boss, you no longer need anything they drop because you were already grinding that level of shit or higher for 12 hours.

What actually happens is that you think you're doing fine after clearing 10 of them at this exact same level in about 10 seconds each, then you enter an incursion and something that is immune to shock with 150% lightning resistance and soul eater sits there and laughs at you for 30 seconds and your temple no longer has a boss. And pretty much every fucking mechanic is like this. It's fine in a vacuum, but if you're not doing some meta shit the loot is worthless 10 hours before you can reliably handle it because you'll run into whatever exact mods fuck your build over way too fucking often, and if you're fast enough to clear timed shit in spite of that, you're glass enough to die before you can read whatever mod is disabling your health recovery or freezing you or draining your mana etc.

I think the difference is that in D1 there are no pinnacle bosses or story content or what have you locked behind massive wealth requirements. Sure, a zoom zoomer can farm dozens of baals per hour (or w/e people do in diablo) and a slow build might take 20 hours to kill baal the first time, but 20 hours is not an insane time investment to beat the game. A slow build in poe will take hundreds of hours to see the main content (just beating the campaign doesn't count, it's not for nothing all the redditors want to be able to skip it).

I think this is a division in single player / mmo style play. Except PoE doesn't have a clear demarker between "raid content" and "normal content".

This is my problem with PoE in a nutshell. It takes many, many hours to farm the keys needed to even attempt one of the literally DOZENS of endgame bosses. And if you didn't watch some asshole streamer, you probably just burn all 6 portals because the tooltip for one of the 32 buff icons you have says you need to be standing 20 degrees west of true north relative to the 2nd pillar that spawned in order to stand in the shadow of the particular star aligned to give your character mega cancer every 6.7 to 11.2 seconds during the 3rd phase of the fight. So, go farm about 60 hours of maps to try ONE more time. At which point the boss will explode before attacking you once because your damage went up an order of magnitude in that timeframe.

I don't want to be able to kill uber exarch or whatever the fuck the latest shit is, but I would have liked to have killed the pale court or the harvest boss before they got removed from the game.

 

[Grunker]

Imagine thinking arc counts as an off meta skill [...] It's one of the most basic spells in poe imo

609 characters are playing Arc with the vast majority of those not being self cast (and Vaal Arc probably being the reason most even run it to begin with). If that is not "off meta" then the concept has no meaning whatsoever. You seem to be confusing the meta - i.e. what's strong and popular - with what's "basic". How those are related I have no clue.

 

[Israfael]

I don't want to be able to kill uber exarch or whatever the fuck the latest shit is, but I would have liked to have killed the pale court or the harvest boss before they got removed from the game.

I've killed the current league boss with 5-link bow with something llike 3/4/3 ele mods and very suboptimal corrupted 6 link armor that provides no resists or useful stats, it's not that hard (and i'm playing ice shot, not TS everyone does now, and both are terribad for bossing), took me 70 hrs or so, third of which was spent in the campaign, so not that much.

 

[Grunker]

I don't want to be able to kill uber exarch or whatever the fuck the latest shit is, but I would have liked to have killed the pale court or the harvest boss before they got removed from the game.

I've killed the current league boss with 5-link bow with something llike 3/4/3 ele mods and very suboptimal corrupted 6 link armor that provides no resists or useful stats, it's not that hard (and i'm playing ice shot, not TS everyone does now, and both are terribad for bossing), took me 70 hrs or so, third of which was spent in the campaign, so not that much.

Maybe, but if you suck like DamnedRegistrations and me, getting to end leaguecontent during a normal league is out of reach if you're an adult male with a time-consuming job. I can get there if I put in a lot of hours and play SC trade, but on HC or SSF they're off limits.

And though I think DR is completely deluding himself in terms of what he wants the game to be (i.e. he thinks he wants slower gameplay clearing trash mobs which he almost certainly doesn't), I completely agree that there is an issue.

Namely, this:

What this disagreement is really about - what we should all agree on - is that unless you're extremely good at the game OR playing straight up SC trade league - progression in after yellow maps can feel absolutely glacial because the game is balanced around you either trading a fuckton or being a no-lifer with nothing but endless hours to play PoE.

This is the real issue for everyone but the no-life streamer boys and why they should implement an SSF mode with the ability to target farm better and/or modify drop rates to a large extend.

So shit players like Damned Registrations and me can actually get some fucking where without needing to play SC trade and feel like the progression is unearned.

 

[abija]

D4 is slow as fuck, and so are most of its contemporaries. The spender-generator gameplay makes sure you have several breaks of doing mostly nothing between actually clearing out enemies.

Why anyone would actively want this kind of trash I have no idea, but if you want slow, go play all those games and let those of us without crippling brain bradykinesia play something fun in the meantime. I'm fine not having to snore my way through trash mobs to get to the actual fun challenges that you generally can't zoom.

D4 was slow for less than 1 content patch. Just play fucking idle clickers if enemies aren't supposed to do anything. Grinding mindless shit for currency to unlock content is the biggest plague PoE brought to the genre.

 

[Grunker]

Like, take RF before the rework for example. Playing the skill itself is fun - but it becomes orgasmic once you get some kind of explosions. But even the most basic version of this - Maven boots - would be nigh-unreachable for me in SSF or HC, and playing SC trade is just not very satisfying because so much of your progress feels unearned when it comes from trade. It's not rocket science - obviously PoE drop rates are tuned for the trading economy and thus other modes will feel glacial in comparison. So asking for systems that encourage other economy types to be less tedious for bad players with less time on their hands seems like a small ask. Especially from a developer that isn't afraid to revamp systems every 6 months.

This problem will only become worse with the introduction of an AH by the way. Drop rates will have to be tuned even further, leaving the other modes even more in the dust. Unless they do a Last Epoch-like solution.

 

[ArchAngel]

I don't want to be able to kill uber exarch or whatever the fuck the latest shit is, but I would have liked to have killed the pale court or the harvest boss before they got removed from the game.

I've killed the current league boss with 5-link bow with something llike 3/4/3 ele mods and very suboptimal corrupted 6 link armor that provides no resists or useful stats, it's not that hard (and i'm playing ice shot, not TS everyone does now, and both are terribad for bossing), took me 70 hrs or so, third of which was spent in the campaign, so not that much.

70h is way too much time to spend on one character , 99% of the time doing boring grind for no to little reward.

 

[ArchAngel]

Like, take RF before the rework for example. Playing the skill itself is fun - but it becomes orgasmic once you get some kind of explosions. But even the most basic version of this - Maven boots - would be nigh-unreachable for me in SSF or HC, and playing SC trade is just not very satisfying because so much of your progress feels unearned when it comes from trade. It's not rocket science - obviously PoE drop rates are tuned for the trading economy and thus other modes will feel glacial in comparison. So asking for systems that encourage other economy types to be less tedious for bad players with less time on their hands seems like a small ask. Especially from a developer that isn't afraid to revamp systems every 6 months.

This problem will only become worse with the introduction of an AH by the way. Drop rates will have to be tuned even further, leaving the other modes even more in the dust. Unless they do a Last Epoch-like solution.

I just hope Last Epoch is actually good so I can finally say final goodbye to GGG if they also fuck up PoE2 like they did PoE1.

 

[Grunker]

Like, take RF before the rework for example. Playing the skill itself is fun - but it becomes orgasmic once you get some kind of explosions. But even the most basic version of this - Maven boots - would be nigh-unreachable for me in SSF or HC, and playing SC trade is just not very satisfying because so much of your progress feels unearned when it comes from trade. It's not rocket science - obviously PoE drop rates are tuned for the trading economy and thus other modes will feel glacial in comparison. So asking for systems that encourage other economy types to be less tedious for bad players with less time on their hands seems like a small ask. Especially from a developer that isn't afraid to revamp systems every 6 months.

This problem will only become worse with the introduction of an AH by the way. Drop rates will have to be tuned even further, leaving the other modes even more in the dust. Unless they do a Last Epoch-like solution.

I just hope Last Epoch is actually good so I can finally say final goodbye to GGG if they also fuck up PoE2 like they did PoE1.

I sincerely doubt it. I've played it a lot, and while I absolutely adore the game's systems (it's like a far better balanced PoE borrowing the best from Grim Dawn), the endgame content is just not there. You're effectively running pointless maps ad infinitum. And since they're almost solely focusing on more systems and more classes currently, it's gonna be like 5-10 years before something approaching an enjoyable endgame with a diverse set of content and bosses is there, I think

That, and there's a weird issue with very low mob density, but that could be fixed I guess.

 

[Jaedar]

What hard DPS checks are there in POE?

Incursion. Delirium. Regen mobs. Abyss (although it's so low I almost feel bad for putting it here). Arguably shaper (the entire arena will fill with damage zones), Sirus (he has pretty high hp regen iirc). Probably more things I can't remember.

Imagine thinking arc counts as an off meta skill [...] It's one of the most basic spells in poe imo

609 characters are playing Arc with the vast majority of those not being self cast (and Vaal Arc probably being the reason most even run it to begin with). If that is not "off meta" then the concept has no meaning whatsoever. You seem to be confusing the meta - i.e. what's strong and popular - with what's "basic". How those are related I have no clue.

609 out of?
True off meta is something like stormbind imo. Arc is pretty strong, even if it's not very popular.

Like, take RF before the rework for example. Playing the skill itself is fun - but it becomes orgasmic once you get some kind of explosions. But even the most basic version of this - Maven boots - would be nigh-unreachable for me in SSF or HC

There was one patch before nerf where you could get explosions from chieftain ascendancy. Which I did. And it was glorious.

What this disagreement is really about - what we should all agree on - is that unless you're extremely good at the game OR playing straight up SC trade league - progression in after yellow maps can feel absolutely glacial because the game is balanced around you either trading a fuckton or being a no-lifer with nothing but endless hours to play PoE.

This is the real issue for everyone but the no-life streamer boys and why they should implement an SSF mode with the ability to target farm better and/or modify drop rates to a large extend.

So shit players like Damned Registrations and me can actually get some fucking where without needing to play SC trade and feel like the progression is unearned.

I will say explicitly that I agree with this.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't want to be able to kill uber exarch or whatever the fuck the latest shit is, but I would have liked to have killed the pale court or the harvest boss before they got removed from the game.

I've killed the current league boss with 5-link bow with something llike 3/4/3 ele mods and very suboptimal corrupted 6 link armor that provides no resists or useful stats, it's not that hard (and i'm playing ice shot, not TS everyone does now, and both are terribad for bossing), took me 70 hrs or so, third of which was spent in the campaign, so not that much.

70 hrs is honestly the upper limit of what I'm willing to spend in a character generally speaking. The thing is, if it takes 70 hrs to do the league boss, how long does it take to do it next league, when the drop rate for whatever it's gated behind is reduced to 10% (or 2% if you didn't spec your atlas into it?) I can generally maybe reach one or two obsolete league bosses in a league before I get fed up and move on. I specced hard into Abyss stuff last time I played. Found one of the special bosses twice, didn't get a drop either time. It was a cool fight, but it wasn't cool enough to justify the dozens of hours of grinding it took to get there when it had functionally no loot because it's all balanced around players running 1200% MF parties or whatever the fuck.

And though I think DR is completely deluding himself in terms of what he wants the game to be (i.e. he thinks he wants slower gameplay clearing trash mobs which he almost certainly doesn't), I completely agree that there is an issue.

That's not what I want at all. I want more time spent in boss fights. I want map bosses to use every attack they have before I kill them. Throw all 3 phases of izaro together and that'd be a decent boss experience. He doesn't flickerstrike you to death with a 400k damage crit like some stupid stacked AN mob or harvest rare with 300% haste and 12 types of damage multiplier. Nor does Izaro die in 2 seconds before he gets an attack off like most of the map bosses if they didn't get defensive mods.

I want breachstones and the like to drop like candy, or a way to convert all my other map frags/curency into them, so I can actually fight a bunch of the unique bosses and maps instead of running through ramparts 1200 times popping things without even clicking on them.

I also want league mechanics that give you a reward regardless of how long you take to clear them. If I want to do a shitty whispering ice mines build to see a million icicles falling at once, the fact that I take twice as long to clear a map is punishment enough, I don't need to also auto fail 80% of the league mechanics which contain 99% of the loot in the game. Heist would have been great if it didn't have fucking unskippable cutscene doors and the exit strategy was something other than 'leapslam past everything.'

AN in it's original form was a good example of what I want from leagues: You opt into it, it doesn't waste your time making you click on something 4 times or pick up 30 shards of shards, and you can run around and kill the bosses at your own pace. If you can't kill the regenerating, blinking, energy shielded vampire you created, that's on you. It's only flaw was the component juggling and what they did with it after the league is terrible. Labyrinth is good too. Again; largely customizable experience, you can full explore or dive through, do Izaro challenges for extra keys or not, and it doesn't kick you out if take your time. If Lab got released today it'd have that built in for sure, you'd lose a key every 30 seconds or some shit and get kicked out after 2 minutes.

Like, take RF before the rework for example. Playing the skill itself is fun - but it becomes orgasmic once you get some kind of explosions. But even the most basic version of this - Maven boots - would be nigh-unreachable for me in SSF or HC, and playing SC trade is just not very satisfying because so much of your progress feels unearned when it comes from trade.

The lack of satisfaction from trading for gear is real, but the other side of the coin is that while I'd feel like I'd earned my ticket just fine if I traded vaal fragments for breach splinters or whatever, the experience of doing that is nails on a chalkboard. Trying to contact 50 different sellers to get 20 of them to each trade you a currency for one of the 20 types of currency you don't want by tabbing in and out of the game and interrupting your mapping is like some sort of parody tier shit.

 

[Ryzer]

How do you guys find enjoyment in this game? I tried multiple times to enjoy this game ( I enjoyed a lot Titan quest, a bit Grim dawn) but with this game neither maps nor the gameplay are satisfying. I feel like the game is pointless busywork.

 

[ArchAngel]

How do you guys find enjoyment in this game? I tried multiple times to enjoy this game ( I enjoyed a lot Titan quest, a bit Grim dawn) but with this game neither maps nor the gameplay are satisfying.

We started playing before Grim Dawn and new age of aRPG was here and it is hard to just quit something you put so much time into. But I am trying.
Others just like to see things pop in hundreds per second on their screen while they give themselves wrist injuries.

 

[Cyberarmy]

How do you guys find enjoyment in this game? I tried multiple times to enjoy this game ( I enjoyed a lot Titan quest, a bit Grim dawn) but with this game neither maps nor the gameplay are satisfying.

You probably liked them for their campaign aspect and impactful gameplay. PoE is not really good on those parts.

 

[Grunker]

How do you guys find enjoyment in this game? I tried multiple times to enjoy this game ( I enjoyed a lot Titan quest, a bit Grim dawn) but with this game neither maps nor the gameplay are satisfying. I feel like the game is pointless busywork.

I hated PoE until I learned to stop worrying and embrace the endgame (before that I'd only played aRPGs for their campaign and maybe a minor bit of bossing). If you've actually reached yellow maps with a good build, starting to get steady improvements for your character and you still didn't enjoy it, there's nothing for you here. PoE is chock full of some of the most compelling system design I've ever experienced coupled with pretty decent endgame content. Playing solo oldschool D2 style for the campaign or whatever is pure trash.

 

[Grunker]

What hard DPS checks are there in POE?

Incursion.

That is a "hard DPS check" in the same sense tying your shoelaces is a "hard IRL check"

609 out of?

It's 0,6% out of all builds - and like I said, if you look at the actual builds, nearly all of them are all about Vaal Arc and then a few are trap builds.

True off meta is something like stormbind imo. Arc is pretty strong, even if it's not very popular.

There's moving the goal posts and there's moving the goal posts. If I can't use self-cast Arc as an example of a non-meta build, there's no point in even debating.

The point is that almost all skills made to clear can clear Incursions without anything but a decent build and whatever rares you happened to drop and therefore being unable to clear them is one of the few things in PoE that is an actual skill check; if you cannot, it is most certainly your fault and not the game's.

You've had a habit of getting into pointless semantics the last couple of time's I've argued with you about these things. You know I'm essentially right about this point, so why are you debating it?

I will say explicitly that I agree with this.

Cool. In my opinion it's the essence of the discussion we've all had for the last few pages, everything else is specifics. The only point of contention remaining past that is whether you enjoy so-called "zooming" or not (bearing in mind people who say "zooming" often just mean "trash mobs can be one-shot" and not what you and I consider zooming). And I maintain that most people who claim to want one-shotting trash mobs gone really, really don't. Fun difficulty in action games isn't clearing a map, no matter how interactive you make trash enemies. It's fighting glorious, hectic bosses that checks both player skills and build strength.

PoE wastes our time enough as it is.

 

[Jaedar]

70 hrs is honestly the upper limit of what I'm willing to spend in a character generally speaking. The thing is, if it takes 70 hrs to do the league boss, how long does it take to do it next league, when the drop rate for whatever it's gated behind is reduced to 10% (or 2% if you didn't spec your atlas into it?) I can generally maybe reach one or two obsolete league bosses in a league before I get fed up and move on. I specced hard into Abyss stuff last time I played. Found one of the special bosses twice, didn't get a drop either time. It was a cool fight, but it wasn't cool enough to justify the dozens of hours of grinding it took to get there when it had functionally no loot because it's all balanced around players running 1200% MF parties or whatever the fuck.

The thing to consider is that it takes like 60 hours to reach high tier red maps, and high tier red maps drop at least 100% more shards/boss spawn rate/etc than yellows or whites. And getting all the atlas passives so you can spec for the content you want also takes time.

So it does get faster, but I agree that it's not fast enough, because by the time I get to that point I've already quit most of the time.

That is a "hard DPS check" in the same sense tying your shoelaces is a "hard IRL check"

It's not, because you can get shoes with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook-and-loop_fastener. Hard in this sense is not about difficulty.

It's also a funny example because it does in fact take kids a bit of effort to learn to tie their shoelaces, it's not something you know when spawning into IRL. Similar to how you might fail incursion if you're new to poe. And if you decide to do something "off-meta" like hike 50 km in a day then if you don't tie your shoelaces correctly you might hurt yourself.

It's 0,6% out of all builds - and like I said, if you look at the actual builds, nearly all of them are all about Vaal Arc and then a few are trap builds.

all builds, or "all builds poe.ninja has indexed for characters who reached level 80 within two weeks of league start" ? Selection bias is a big problem. (this is a side track)

You've had a habit of getting into pointless semantics the last couple of time's I've argued with you about these things. You know I'm essentially right about this point, so why are you debating it?

I think we genuinely disagree on the criteria for off-meta (ie, you think it's sufficient to be impopular or weak, I think it needs to be both. fwiw, I think DR was using it the same way I am and you are being needlessly antagonistic about it), but from this reply it seems we agree on the facts so any further discussion really would be semantics. Because I guess we can both agree that arc is fairly strong, despite not being popular any more?

 

[abija]

Grunker
You are the one arguing semantics. Zooming = clearing the screen in several seconds and moving to next screen. Degenerate absurd "gameplay" that should be the "destination" not the actual "journey". The simple fact that being able to complete incursions is baseline says more than all your rambling.

 

[Grunker]

Because I guess we can both agree that arc is fairly strong

If by "fairly strong" you mean "as strong as almost all skills with some basic clear scaling" then yes, we agree - but then that was the very point I was trying to make.

 

[ADL]

Either way, I think Last Epoch's solution is more interesting. I would probably enjoy an SSF SC experience with increased drop rates way more than an AH HC experience. I really hope PoEII pivots to something similar.

Jonathan basically said he would be watching how Last Epoch goes on this point. Which is good because every poll I have seen favors the circle of fortune faction system 5:1 over tradecucking.

Although he's not a fan of separate drop rates because it creates two vastly different experiences and alters the perceived value of rarer items, he always seemed open to changing his mind on any given subject and the whole circle of fortune thing may very well be something they'll have to "get with the times" on just like AH trading itself.

 

[Grunker]

Either way, I think Last Epoch's solution is more interesting. I would probably enjoy an SSF SC experience with increased drop rates way more than an AH HC experience. I really hope PoEII pivots to something similar.

Jonathan basically said he would be watching how Last Epoch goes on this point. Which is good because every poll I have seen favors the circle of fortune faction system 5:1 over tradecucking.

Although he's not a fan of separate drop rates because it creates two vastly different experiences and alters the perceived value of rarer items, he always seemed open to changing his mind on any given subject and the whole circle of fortune thing may very well be something they'll have to "get with the times" on just like AH trading itself.

Cool. Although that last part is really concerning IMO. The gulf in the rates of acquisition of gear is already so absolutely massive it’s very much “two vastly different experiences” already.

I think this is what’s odd. PoE has time and again been on the frontline of aRPG innovation; cracking the frontiers of age-old aRPG issues with new systems. Their solutions often have tons of problems on their own, but that comes with the territory - taking risks on solving those issues.

Yet with trade and SSF, GGG is more conservative than fucking Blizzard.

 

[Baron Dupek]

What hard DPS checks are there in POE?

Anything with timers? Like Legion?

 

[Grunker]

What hard DPS checks are there in POE?

Anything with timers? Like Legion?

Less of a hard DPS check and more like a "is your build geared towards this or not?" I've played tons of great builds that couldn't fuck with Legion and a few not-so-great ones that could easily do it.