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Owlcat's next game is an AAA title that will need full voice acting to compete with BG3

MjKorz

Educated
Joined
Jul 11, 2022
Messages
530
I think over time it is getting increasingly apparent that Owlcat is a B tier developer which produced the A tier Pathfinder games through brute force and will. Kind of like how the Path of Exile devs are a bunch of hacks yet the game is a success because they keep producing content for it. Rogue Trader is a much closer indicator to what Owlcat is capable of making, and now with them going full 400 man studio with multiple games I am concern about the struggles they will be facing next.
The only reason pathfinder games were any good was the ruleset they could just copy and paste. Once Owlclowns started working with their own ruleset in Rogue Trader, it became immediately clear that they are incompetent buffoons who have no idea how to design game systems and are now desperately trying to fix the garbage turn-stacking and alpha-striking focused combat system they initially implemented in Rogue Trader.

I already did a more in-depth post about why Owlclown games suck in another thread which I will now proceed to shamelessly self-quote:
The good part of WotR that ensures very high replayability due to an overabundance of character archetypes has nothing to do with Owlclowns, they just copied the already existing content from tabletop and whatever homebrew archetypes they introduced were either complete garbage or ridiculously OP, which shows they have no idea how to work with the ruleset. The one and only thing Owlclowns introduced that has any value are the mythic paths since the mythic abilities in the original adventure path were handled so poorly that literally any change would've been an improvement. Still, Owlclown implementation of mythic paths is extremely imbalanced in terms of game mechanics with abilities ranging from extremely OP ones acquired early to useless ones acquired late, which, once again, shows that Owlclowns have absolutely no clue how to work with the ruleset.

The narrative component in all Owlclown games is just infantile drivel aimed at endlessly fellating the player - a power fantasy for incels with plenty of "waifus" to "romance" and drool at. If you look at some of the owlslop discussion threads outside of the 'dex, most of them consist of endless waifu shitposting which paints a pretty clear picture of the audience Owlclown games are aimed at. Mentally ill Owlclown "writers" injecting copious amounts of cuckshit into their own romances only adds fuel to the trashfire.

The lack of tactical depth in Owlclown games stems from their inability to understand and work with the ruleset(s) and utter incompetence in designing encounters. Those who play Owlclown games on non-babby difficulties are well familiar with the fact that most of the difficulty stems from absolutely insane stat inflation. Instead of focusing on designing encounters against well-thought out groups of reasonably powerful enemies that work in synergy as an effective combat unit, Owlclowns just populate their games with endless piles of trash mobs with stats massively inflated relative to the source material and then they scale those same inflated trash mobs further by introducing higher difficulties that inflate the stats yet again.

Owlslop is the kind of gaming medium where you will encounter neither lower-level enemy parties challenging higher level player parties by working together like a fine-tuned singular organism, nor high level enemy parties using the full synergistic brunt of the ruleset to figuratively clobber the player into intellectual submission, something those well familiar with the genre could experience over a decade ago in BG2 mods such as The Ritual and Solaufein and some of the Tactics components like Kuroisan the Acid Kensai, or in games with actual tactical depth like Deadfire with its "Seeker, Slayer, Survivor" DLC that focuses on this kind of tactical party vs party combat. What you will find in Owlslop are just an endless sea of bloated trash mobs that get brainlessly chunked by auto-attacking martials, occasionally sprinkled with an extra stat-bloated "boss" that needs attack/AC/saves buffs/debuffs to defeat, depending on player party focus and composition.

While it is true that the player can build parties in different ways focusing on different tactics (e.g. martial vs caster focused) thanks to the abundance of archetypes Owlclowns copied from the source material, this does not create meaningful tactical depth for one simple reason: there is no reason to adapt your tactics, depending on the situation, no reason to be tactically flexible. Once you figure out a well-working party composition, you just steamroll the entire game with it. The biggest tactical change you might need to perform is switching one spell for another on your DC caster, depending on enemy immunities. This problem, again, stems from lack of synergistic enemy encounter design since Owlclown enemies work as separate statblocks and once you learn how to overcome those statblocks by pumping your AC/attack/spellDC/spellDamage and/or debuffing enemy AC/saves, the game's pretty much solved.

Returning to the topic of Rogue Trader, this game is a clear example of Owlclown incompetence when designing game systems. They refused to implement the tabletop combat system (which is not something I judge them negatively for), yet failed to design a competent replacement since all they did before this was copy already existing rulesets with meager attempts at homebrew additions that were mostly garbage. The result was a combat system revolving entirely around turn stacking and alpha striking, where you delete entire encounters in 1-2 game rounds by stacking endless buffs and turns on your dedicated damage dealer while the rest of the party just twirls their thumbs in terms of offense. It was so bad that Owlclowns are now desperately scrambling to redesign the entire combat system, starting with the elimination of turn stacking mechanics which should've never been in the game in the first place - proof that they never had any idea of what they were actually doing while designing the combat system.

The Rogue Trader character generation and advancement system is also heavily overburdened by an endless list of useless abilities: you have to wade through a sea of trash to find something that actually works well enough to be worth using. Why have so many abilities when most of them are outright trash? The answer is simple: they have absolutely no fucking clue what they're doing.
 
Shitposter
Joined
May 1, 2024
Messages
438
Location
Neverwinter, Always Sunny
pathfinder games were any good
Damn. Imo, Pathfinder(s) are probably 7, at best, WOTR was a slight improvement. Quest design are absolutely bland. Encounter design designed by Cock and Ball torture enjoyer, a lot of class/background but absolutely next to nothing ever matter in dialogue/reactivity, moon fucking logics for some of the requirement for "better" ending, puzzle that cannot be bypassed by your stat - and you have jackload of stat.

The only saving grace is that the game was lucky I like seeing my character roll 19 + 68 (BAB) + 420 (Modifier) vs. 2342134524364526 AC cockroach with -69 Touch AC.
 

Rhobar121

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2022
Messages
1,280
Comparing aRPG and cRPG makes absolutely no sense. The former will almost always have a better fight.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,419
You are now allowed to cope in whatever way you want to justify how a 3 year old game has more players than a game that hasn't even been out for a year.
More sales mean more people playing? Bigger popularity of fantasy genre over sci-fi? All-time peak numbers seem to be similar (same as 24-hour peaks). I wouldn't be surprised if Wrath being more patched up than Rogue Trader also plays a role here (some people stopped playing, some wait before buying, etc.).
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,026
Location
Frostfell
If OwlCat continues to adapt TT RPGs, which one would you like them to adapt?

My wishlist of TT games that OwlCat should adapt into CRPG format :
1 - Shadow of the Demon Lord
2 - GURPS Technomancer
3 - Hyperborea
4 - Lamentations of the Flame Princess
5 - Another retroclone (preferentially Shadowdark)
6 - VtM/VtR
(...)

What I don't want :
1 - PF2e
2 - Starfinder
3 - D&D 4e.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,026
Location
Frostfell
Shadowrun.

World be great

Gamma World.

Started to read a bit about it.

Seems interesting.

character roll 19 + 68 (BAB) + 420 (Modifier) vs. 2342134524364526 AC cockroach with -69 Touch AC.
TBH with OwlCat, epic (or mythic) level 3.5e is very bloated.

Wanna an example? Here is an "adaptation" of 3.5e of EverQuest, the weakest vs. the strongest necromancer minion.

6SB9K6m.png
DbHaPQn.png


Note: EoT also has a lot of powerful spells and abilities.

And spells go from d6 damage damage to:

2TPsXkY.png

6NdIohw.png
28oQ6ub.png

That is 60~600 (330 average) damage in a single spell if the combat lasts 10 rounds. Wizards get disintegrate, OHK the foe or deals 2*d10*10 damage if they make a save... What saves Pathfinder is that ALL adventure paths aren't very high-level adventures. WoTR is the unique epic mythic level AP. And most APs rarely go close to epic levels. If OwlCat had chose Council of Thieves – Levels 1~13 to adapt, no one would complain about bloat.

started working with their own ruleset in Rogue Trader, it became immediately clear that they are incompetent buffoons who have no idea how to design game systems and are now desperately trying to fix the garbage turn-stacking and alpha-striking focused combat system they initially implemented in Rogue Trader.

Yep. But TBH I had more fun in RT than in Pillows of 4e after they patches. Still didn't finished RT as got bored.

Anyway, their homebrew stuff in PF1e was amazing. I loved the shadowcaster class for eg.
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,174
If OwlCat continues to adapt TT RPGs, which one would you like them to adapt?

Honest answer, probably some sci-fi setting, as long as it isn't too Star Wars-y or Fallout-y and goes more hard SF. We need more Colony Ships (setting-wise, not implementation-wise)
 

ColonelMace

Educated
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
206
Location
Tsarfat
Considering Owlcat shameless design philosophy, production budget and full VO is the least of their issues if they're to be compared to Larian.
A mere look at their encounter design (which costs nothing to adress) already disqualifies them.
They serve the blandest slop on the market.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,026
Location
Frostfell
Honest answer, probably some sci-fi setting, as long as it isn't too Star Wars-y or Fallout-y and goes more hard SF. We need more Colony Ships (setting-wise, not implementation-wise)

I also prefer more ""grounded"" sci-fi—instead of FTL travel, cheap and accessible for everyone at zero cost and people able to materialize everything, something like a colony ship, where inter-solar space travel is possible but takes multiple generations and challenges. Sadly, IDK, much more RPGs that are like Colony Ship.

But I don't think that OwlCat could make a game in the style of Colony Ship. Thinking a bit more, I remove LotFP from my suggestions. I would love LotFP in CRPG format, but don't believe that OwlCat can make a good adaptation.

encounter design

Just hire Pierre (KotC1/2).
 

deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,016
Location
UK
If OwlCat continues to adapt TT RPGs, which one would you like them to adapt?

My wishlist of TT games that OwlCat should adapt into CRPG format :
1 - Shadow of the Demon Lord
2 - GURPS Technomancer
3 - Hyperborea
4 - Lamentations of the Flame Princess
5 - Another retroclone (preferentially Shadowdark)
6 - VtM/VtR
(...)

What I don't want :
1 - PF2e
2 - Starfinder
3 - D&D 4e.
Vampire for me, but after the rogue trader, I'm not sure they're gonna do anything good no more.
Wrath of the rightous was pretty good I thought, but rogue trader I played for an hour and just had to stop, it's almost like everything about it was wrong...
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
17,026
Location
Frostfell
but after the rogue trader, I'm not sure they're gonna do anything good no more.

If they use a d20 OGL or any TT system (except shit TT systems like 4e and pf2e) and just do minor alterations, they can make great stuff. If they, on the other hand, try something new and bring a lot of 4Eism into it, like RT, it will be bad.
 

deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,016
Location
UK
but after the rogue trader, I'm not sure they're gonna do anything good no more.

If they use a d20 OGL or any TT system (except shit TT systems like 4e and pf2e) and just do minor alterations, they can make great stuff. If they, on the other hand, try something new and bring a lot of 4Eism into it, like RT, it will be bad.
That's an interesting question, are they actually a good company, or are they only good because they ripping off existing things? Like kingmaker and wrath already had modules and even rulesets done, all they had to do is lift and shift.
Would any company with enough capital be able to do that I wonder?
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,419
Vampire for me, but after the rogue trader, I'm not sure they're gonna do anything good no more.
If they were to do something, I doubt Vampire the Masquerade is the kind of RPG that suits them, given how combat-oriented (in the old school way) their games are.
 

ColonelMace

Educated
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
206
Location
Tsarfat
That's an interesting question, are they actually a good company, or are they only good because they ripping off existing things? Like kingmaker and wrath already had modules and even rulesets done, all they had to do is lift and shift.
Can't they be both ?
Thing is, from what it seems at least, Owlcat has a precise business model : leverage the really cheap cost of labor they benefit from (which they can even more capitalise on since they transferred most of their devs in Cyprus) to land profitable contractual adaptation rights to existing IPs.
It's a very automated process at this point (and the result really felt unorganic as all fuck in the 10hours I spent on Rogue Trader) but it's exactly, honest-to-God, what it promises : quantity over quality, faithful to the setting, decent fanservice without getting too egregious.

Owlcat is a crpg soup kitchen. If you want an extra potion, they'll indulge with a smile.
 

Takamori

Learned
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
905
I'm afraid it will be some 5th edition D&D shit.
The impression I got after BG3 is that no one wanna work with Hasbro unless you wanna get your ass scammed. Also given that Owlcat has good relations with Paizo I'd guess they go for either PF2 or Starfinder.
 

deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
5,016
Location
UK
That's an interesting question, are they actually a good company, or are they only good because they ripping off existing things? Like kingmaker and wrath already had modules and even rulesets done, all they had to do is lift and shift.
Can't they be both ?
Thing is, from what it seems at least, Owlcat has a precise business model : leverage the really cheap cost of labor they benefit from (which they can even more capitalise on since they transferred most of their devs in Cyprus) to land profitable contractual adaptation rights to existing IPs.
It's a very automated process at this point (and the result really felt unorganic as all fuck in the 10hours I spent on Rogue Trader) but it's exactly, honest-to-God, what it promises : quantity over quality, faithful to the setting, decent fanservice without getting too egregious.

Owlcat is a crpg soup kitchen. If you want an extra potion, they'll indulge with a smile.
I mean sure, if you're after profits it's a decent model, exploit low dev costs by copy-pasting well known IPs with well known rulesets...
But that's not how you make a game that'll last through the ages.
 

ColonelMace

Educated
Joined
Aug 7, 2023
Messages
206
Location
Tsarfat
No it's not, but then again, making outstanding games doesn't pay the bills as well as serving the pottage.
And truth be told, when you got to eat, Owlcat is there for you. In a way, you can even see this as virtuous : I have played all of their games, albeit not extensively I dare admit, and I have yet to witness a noticeable load of pretention in their work. That's the main quality I'd find them, to counter-balance my former, harsh comment : they seem down to earth. What you see is what you get.
 
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Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
17,026
Location
Frostfell
I'm afraid it will be some 5th edition D&D shit.

I doubt.

No one likes to work with WotC/Hasbro.

or are they only good because they ripping off existing things

Before RT, I assumed that they were a good company because their homebrew stuff was good. After RT with a lot of 4eism, I assume that they can't make a good system on their own.

Owlcat has a precise business model : leverage the really cheap cost of labor they benefit from (which they can even more capitalise on since they transferred most of their devs in Cyprus) to land profitable contractual adaptation rights to existing IPs.

Criticize OwlCat as much as you want. They manage to lever a relatively cheap but very productive workforce for European standards. Cyprus has a has a business-friendly environment, a cheap but beloved IP to license, and an audience that is desperate for anything relative good since the CRPG genre declined a lot for the casualization and balance cultism. They are essentially selling water in the desert and getting very cheap water to do so.

This business model seems quite effective.

And I don't see anything treating their business model.

Also remind me what the metascore of JA3 is and compare that to BG3, thanks.

No one takes metascore from Gendermancer game journals seriously.

The fact that even in a forum full of Grognards(here), the most common score for BG3 was 8/10 is imo a better argument than the fact that game journos liked BG3. In fact, game journalists liking BG3 is a point against BG3.

but then again, making outstanding games doesn't pay the bills as well as serving the pottage.

See Troika. 3 Masterpieces. Yet got bankrupt.

However, I'm not that sure. IMO if Troika had access to Russian cheap but highly productive workforce, Cyprus business friendly environment and access to modern internet crowdfunding, and modern game engines, they would have much more success.

In business, you must maximize profits and minimize expenses. Not just make a masterpiece that is loved by the target audience but can't sustain your business.
 

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