Open Call for Reviews

[commie]

I'll do the two Two Worlds games....oh wait, you don't even have them on the list but have a bunch of fag arse gay indie shit and Tron 2.0 as a RPG....

Really useful cRPG Handbook you have there.....

Why yes commie, I think we should add Two Worlds the book and you can review it. Thanks for asking so nicely.

Would you rather have one page for each game, or two pages to talk about both?

I think they need to be separate as they have different strengths and glaring weaknesses. I'll do them if you aren't in a big hurry. Of course I won't take months, but I'm job searching at the moment.

But I wonder how you came up with this list. I mean, where's all the eastern European stuff like Farewell to Dragons, Hard to be a God, Inquisitor or a dozen others? Sure they are hardly 'great' or even 'good', but certainly qualify as RPG's more than much of this stuff.

How about King's Bounty? Why is it not there yet Battle for Wesnoth is? Why is that game a 'RPG' and the former isn't?

I'm not getting the reasoning. Is it based only on what you have knowledge of?

 

[Jaesun]

What specifically makes Two Worlds worth mentioning, from all the other cRPG's mentioned?

Are the changes between the 2 games worth that much space or discussion?

Take for example Fallout and Fallout 2. While there are a few differences, they are not that much worth discussing at length.

 

[HiddenX]

commie
About eastern europe cRPGs:
I'm a fan of Inquisitor - cool detective story and unique setting, but the combat isn't very good balanced (you have to rely on potions in bigger battles). It could be mentioned in an article of recommended lesser known indie titles.

Two Worlds 1 had many problems at release and was patched countless times. The game is very short. Two Worlds 2 is clearly the better overall game (real cool bad ass main char). For some reason I never finished Two Worlds 2. (Some other good release at the same time I think.)

I'll review the great game Evil Islands: Curse of the Lost Soul and I'll mention the related Rage of Mages 1 & 2 in there shortly. Unfortunately I know nothing of the other Evil Islands games (russian release only I think).

The Kings Bounty series should be in an article with strategy games that have strong cRPG elements, like Spellforce, etc. .

The Witcher games are in already.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Tron 2.0 as a RPG....

because all the other shooters with stats on that list are a-okay!

 

[commie]

What specifically makes Two Worlds worth mentioning, from all the other cRPG's mentioned?

Are the changes between the 2 games worth that much space or discussion?

Take for example Fallout and Fallout 2. While there are a few differences, they are not that much worth discussing at length.

Well I thought this was meant to be a catalogue of RPG's. You could just keep Two Worlds series as one entry I guess. That would be better I think to easily highlight the pros and cons of the series as a whole.

But I don't understand what you are asking with "why should this be worth mentioning?" I mean why should Magical Diary get an entry or Cthulhu Saves the World when they are just cookie cutter indie fodder that are a dime a dozen. Why include those and not the Penny Arcade Rainslick Precipice games? What makes them stand out? It seems that this is just a list of whatever came into felipepepe's head and whatever he saw when he typed in 'RPG' in the Steam Store search engine. I don't think we should be overanalysing this list as something which has contributed in some groundbreaking way to RPG's as if it was a list like that it would have probably a dozen entries. I'm all for it being just a good inclusive guide of RPG's which people have found enjoyable and can articulate as to why it was so. I'd wager such a guide is a lot more practical and beneficial than some hipster elitist shit that mentions some obscure, barely playable game as 'art' or 'groundbreaking' even if as a game it's shit.

Speaking of obscure shit that actually is fun...I might have to add Dark Designs series by Carmack to my list of reviews. The series that got me into RPG's in the first place.

HiddenX
Two worlds very short? I think it took me about 50 hours to finish everything. Granted the main quest you could do pretty quickly, but that's true of any ES game as well. What I liked about it was the mix of open world hiking sim and Gothic style fixed level regions which meant you'd be butchered if you went where you weren't prepared for. Yeah it was clunky and some god awful delivery "forsooth!", but I thought the overall effect was to make it stand a bit above the Codexian "good for what it is", even if it was indeed that.

Oh and yeah..Evil Islands is really good.

Tron 2.0 as a RPG....

because all the other shooters with stats on that list are a-okay!

Well of course there's others, that was just an example. If we go down that road then Battlefield is an RPG. What I objected to was something like Tron being on the list and no mention at all of Two Worlds which is actually a proper ARPG.

 

[ZodoZ]

Maybe felipepepe is trying to keep the list to a manageable size initially. As he (she?-sry idk-no offence) is quarterbacking this undertaking seems to me that is the leader's prerogative. It's weird but the first thing I thought about was : "Oh cool I wonder if so&so is on the list and if I could review it. That would be so awesome." Then I read through the list and looked for the name of a game that had been one of my personal favorites. I must be mental or something.

 

[felipepepe]

But I wonder how you came up with this list.

I wrote the name of all the RPGs in tiny papers and then threw up in the air on a bridge. The ones the fell on the water were out.


But seriously, the idea of the book is to be a recommendation guide for RPG players of all kinds, not a catalog. So I choose the games that I had heard good things about, found may fans of, or saw there was passion for it. I reckon that it isn't a perfect list, but IMHO selecting the games is perhaps the hardest part of the entire process. I asked the help of various codexers to help come up with the list, and no one could agree on what should be in (do we keep curiosities in? Historical games? Only the best? Hybrids? Cool shitty games? Is Pirates! a RPG?). And then there's the issue of page count... I can't include them all.

So, after spending like 2 weeks trying to get a "perfect list", I decided to bear the blame and start the whole process. I took the feedback from everyone, read what people wrote about our Top 70 list, searched the other websites Top lists and came up with a list. I didn't include Farewell to Dragons, Hard to be a God, Inquisitor, etc, because no one spoke of them, and all the reviews I found were more on the mediocre level...

However, the list that's up now is not final. Games that are in can fall, and everyone is free to recommend games that should be in. Many have done so, and Hammer & Sickle, Of Orcs and Men and now Two Worlds will be added. Others are clearly being left undone because there's no interest, so I'll cut them.

Speaking of obscure shit that actually is fun...I might have to add Dark Designs series by Carmack to my list of reviews. The series that got me into RPG's in the first place.
Oh and yeah..Evil Islands is really good.

Of the over 100 people I've talked about this, you're the first person to even mention Two Worlds and Dark Designs. But many told me about Evil Island, and a day after releasing the list I already have someone writing about it. See how this isn't easy? I have played a lot of RPGs, but not all. And I won't use my tastes to judge what others may enjoy. Tell me why Dark Designs should be in, and I'll consider it.

But I don't understand what you are asking with "why should this be worth mentioning?" I mean why should Magical Diary get an entry or Cthulhu Saves the World when they are just cookie cutter indie fodder that are a dime a dozen.

Magical Diary is a Visual Novel/RPG hybrid, that allows you to use magic in dungeons in a way that not even Daggerfall comes close. I'd rather mention such a unique game than the mediocre Gothic clone #54987. Or include Cthulhu saves the World instead of yet another mediocre Ultima clone from the 80's. Why? It's a nice jRPG for PC (not many of those), that a lot of people played and enjoyed. This book isn't just for Codexians, and those two games offer something different and that people that don't like some aspects of other RPGs might enjoy. I could write you a book on only Ultima clones, and it wouldn't achieve nothing.

How about King's Bounty? Why is it not there yet Battle for Wesnoth is? Why is that game a 'RPG' and the former isn't?

Again page count. Those will be in, but are on hold ATM, so I can see how many pages I use and how to approach them. Should I make a big article on King's Bounty, HoMM and the likes, or include them as individual entries? Only the amount of pages will tell... same thing for MMOs. That's why I can't add every RPG ever made.

So, final question commie : Why both Two Worlds games and Dark Designs should be in the book? Sell me those games.

 

[felipepepe]

Then I read through the list and looked for the name of a game that had been one of my personal favorites. I must be mental or something.

Everyone does that. That's why selecting games is so hard. The same way that people on our list just open the page, see PS:T at #1 and say "shit list", people will open the book, search for a game they like, and if it isn't in it's a "shit book".

And they don't care that the game they like is a obscure Spectrum game that is actually a shitty copy of Rogue; it was his first RPG, he liked it and wants to read about it. In a positive tone that confirms his good taste, of course.

 

[commie]

Of the over 100 people I've talked about this, you're the first person to even mention Two Worlds and Dark Designs.

So, final question commie : Why both Two Worlds games and Dark Designs should be in the book? Sell me those games.

Firstly, i'm interested to know who mentioned Alakabeth as some must play title or Venetica(must be some sort of troll). The former is clearly just some curiousity that noone would really play except for historical reasons(exactly the point I was making about hipster lists), and the second is just a short Fable clone. I doubt the Codex vanguard was knocking down the doors with their recommendations for these.

As for why the others should be in? Dark Designs mostly just for personal reasons and the curiousity that John Carmack designed them. They are barebones as fuck, but fun enough. I mentioned the series more as a counter to some of the other ancient, simple RPG's on the list that normally no-one would play. The difference is that Dark Designs actually is still playable still when compared to some of the other stuff from the era.

Two Worlds series may be poor man's 'Gothic' clones, but most of your list is populated with 'mediocre' titles as it is, and TW actually has had an audience that doesn't run in the low teens so there is some kind of broader impact right there. Also, they were just fun to play and get lost in. Each had their own glaring faults but there was enough left to make for an interesting journey and that above all other things is what makes a good RPG(not to be confused with good RPG SYSTEM). You can have the best game mechanics in the world but if the result is borne out in a schematic game with dull, insipid design then it won't help. And yeah, I've played games that were FAR better mechanically, but I never finished them as they were just a repetitive grind with none of the sense of wonder or discovery needed in an RPG to keep you going. I've also played games with shitty mechanics that transcended those because of other things(F:NV, Alpha Protocol). Then there are other games that not even good ideas can save: Take Twilight 2000 on your list for example. I know the game, I loved the setting, but the execution was a fucking nightmare, the thing was boring and barely playable, like most of the hybrids of the time.

Regardless, if you don't want those then fair enough. It's just strange is all, given the 'this game sold 10 copies in 1981, better put it in as a MUST PLAY as it's so niche and old school! DIG?' that you have on the list.

Of the ones you DO have though, I'm not so interested in the new stuff(let the kids review their first RPG's of the halcyon days of the mid 2000's), but leave me some Gold Box goodness like Buck Rogers(ok, technically that one isn't GB).

 

[Jasede]

commie is actually making we want to try out Two Worlds. It looks like a better Kingdoms of Amalamamalur, with more RPG and less mashing.

 

[felipepepe]

Firstly, i'm interested to know who mentioned Alakabeth as some must play title or Venetica(must be some sort of troll). The former is clearly just some curiousity that noone would really play except for historical reasons(exactly the point I was making about hipster lists), and the second is just a short Fable clone. I doubt the Codex vanguard was knocking down the doors with their recommendations for these.

The cRPGAddict's list has 2390 "RPGs", and that's only up to 2003. I have to choose what is worth a page or not, and of course my bias will exist. I find Akalabeth is simply too important and interesting to leave out.

Of the ones you DO have though, I'm not so interested in the new stuff(let the kids review their first RPG's of the halcyon days of the mid 2000's), but leave me some Gold Box goodness like Buck Rogers(ok, technically that one isn't GB).

So you'll take Two Worlds I and II, plus Buck Rogers?

commie is actually making we want to try out Two Worlds. It looks like a better Kingdoms of Amalamamalur, with more RPG and less mashing.

And that's why it he should write about it for he book.

But Dark Designs clearly is unneeded, and so we've made another decision on the list of games that should be in. And I've got months of this ahead, so I'm confident it will turn out well.

 

[commie]

commie is actually making we want to try out Two Worlds. It looks like a better Kingdoms of Amalamamalur, with more RPG and less mashing.

Well I know the Codex finds it trendy to go 'this suxxors' at everything that doesn't measure up to the Trinity(tm), but fuck...thanks to you and others I've gotten off my high horse and am enjoying a lot of JRPG's that I previously virtually automatically disdained. That's why I'm throwing out these particular titles. Sure, they won't appeal to everybody, but automatically dismissing them based on hearsay and dare I say mainstream reviews even is unfortunate. I remember Sceptic first was indeed 'sceptical' but after playing through TW1 he understood why I thought the game had merit. I prefer the second one in many ways more based on the superior quest design but at the same time bemoan the crappier exploration. I don't know why the dev's made such choices to improve one part at the expense of another. Maybe TW3 will finally be a 'complete' experience.

 

[commie]

So you'll take Two Worlds I and II, plus Buck Rogers?

commie is actually making we want to try out Two Worlds. It looks like a better Kingdoms of Amalamamalur, with more RPG and less mashing.

And that's why it he should write about it for he book.

But Dark Designs clearly is unneeded, and so we've made another decision on the list of games that should be in. And I've got months of this ahead, so I'm confident it will turn out well.

Yeah, I'll do it, run some drafts for you over the next month or so. I'll have to replay a bit of these to get my mind fresh as well.

Dark Designs....well.....there were many of these obscure titles. I'd like to throw out a kind of mini-review for these little games that slip by, the ones that still have some kind of gameplay worth beyond curiousity. Wouldn't have to be big, just a page or two for reference.

 

[felipepepe]

Thanks.

Dark Designs....well.....there were many of these obscure titles. I'd like to throw out a kind of mini-review for these little games that slip by, the ones that still have some kind of gameplay worth beyond curiousity. Wouldn't have to be big, just a page or two for reference.

There are some I enjoyed that didn't make the cut as well, perhaps I'll make a big "Curiosities" article at the end, with like 3 games per page... we'll see.

Also, this just came in:

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[J_C]

Thanks.

Dark Designs....well.....there were many of these obscure titles. I'd like to throw out a kind of mini-review for these little games that slip by, the ones that still have some kind of gameplay worth beyond curiousity. Wouldn't have to be big, just a page or two for reference.

There are some I enjoyed that didn't make the cut as well, perhaps I'll make a big "Curiosities" article at the end, with like 3 games per page... we'll see.

Also, this just came in:

May we know which games are reviewed by MCA, JES, CMcC and the other big guns? Or it will be a surprise?

 

[felipepepe]

MCA: Wasteland 1;
Sawyer: Darklands;
Ian: Ultima V and Deus Ex;
Colin: Ultima 2.

I'm trying to get Sven on Ultima 7 and David on Champion of Krynn as well, but I'll wait until they've released D:OS. Harvey Smith from Arkane Studios liked the idea, but it checking his agenda, and there are others I'm awaiting reply.

We also have a cast of indie stars, like Styg on Nox, VD on Daggerfall, Jay from Rampant Coyote on Ultima Underworld, the boss of Hanako games on Princess Maker 2, and a couple of others I'm working on... and modders like Durante (Dark Souls), Wesp5 (VTM:B), Shanga (JA 2 1.13), our fellow Sduibek , etc...

If you got any suggestions of devs, I'm all ears.

 

[commie]

If you can get get Angry Joe on board it will make it complete.

 

[felipepepe]

If you can get get Angry Joe on board it will make it complete.

I honestly wouldn't mind AngryJoe on Fallout 3. In fact, I think it would be beneficial in the long run; make a book like this reach the usual AJ audience and read about "those games before Fallout 3".

The real issue is that youtube celebrities, and overall anyone that makes a living on add revenue, will always ask for a compensation. Not only I don't have any budget, but even if I had, this is a fan project, no profit intended. Everyone from MCA and Colin to the unemployed 16 years-old kid is writing for free, so I find unfair to pay only some.

Which brings me to a very big issue I'm procrastinating on: Cover art.

I originally had a friend that is a professional 3D artist willing to help on the power of friendship alone, but he had some big problems and won't be able to work on this.

Shame really, he had a great idea about a piece of isometric dungeon, with characters from various games fighting and exploring...

 

[commie]

Which brings me to a very big issue I'm procrastinating on: Cover art.

I originally had a friend that is a professional 3D artist willing to help on the power of friendship alone, but he had some big problems and won't be able to work on this.

Shame really, he had a great idea about a piece of isometric dungeon, with characters from various games fighting and exploring...

Why not just make the cover all black with Blue lettering in the style of Ultima VII or a wireframe depiction of a dungeon with the text in that low res computer font of the 80's?

 

[felipepepe]

Heh, I did something similar almost ten years ago at college, with a heavy metal book cover based on Metallica's Black Album.... cheapness, ho!

But it's a backup plan.

 

[Monty]

Which brings me to a very big issue I'm procrastinating on: Cover art.

I originally had a friend that is a professional 3D artist willing to help on the power of friendship alone, but he had some big problems and won't be able to work on this.

Shame really, he had a great idea about a piece of isometric dungeon, with characters from various games fighting and exploring...

When the book starts coming together perhaps the Codex could have a contest to produce the cover art. I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who'd be willing to make an effort to be on the front of a potentially legendary volume like this.

Yes, there'd be troll entries with MHDs or whatever, but there would be good entries too.

 

[felipepepe]

My plan was to release a 50-page preview of the book, get some big media coverage and then hunt for a RPG fan willing to help. Places like Pixel Joint and CG Society have WEEKLY competitions of people doing art for the sake of art, I could contact the staff and see if they wouldn't do a competition for a cover.

That's when my evil marketing training comes into practice, I guess. I mean, FFS, people submit THIS freely for a challenge:

As a teacher of mine used to say, "there are people willing to give and people in need, biggest problem of the world is connecting both".

I'm sure that gentlemen such as Pyke knows of artists and communities willing to help a project like this.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Also, ask Todd Howard to review Ultima 7!


Also2, I agree with commie at least as much that Two Worlds probably deserves a page more than some of the shovelware like Venetica.

 

[Servo]

felipepepe you've got your hands full with editing. Want some help?