On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[oscar]

Improve our army if possible (king has a new idea for training, discipline, tactics or some such?).

 

[Kipeci]

- Let's start to work to undermine our religion. Or to use it. We KNOW it's a hoax. So might as well either remove it so we do not have to contend with priests and angry devouts, or use it for fanaticism to promote our escape and knowledge. But either way, I'd say undermine it. We went religious with the obsidian embers, and we SAW how much good that did.

The fact that these people came up with a crazy religion based on sacrificing dissenters to keep people out of the western tunnels at all costs and admitted that while barbaric it was necessary surely indicates that scrapping it to do whatever is a great idea. Also, religion wasn't the issue with the Obsidian Embers; the issue was that we entirely wiped out our ruling class in futile opposition against the Wielder on the off chance that it would somehow inspire future rebellion, thus leaving him as the only figure with any authority. No doubt their religious fervor is actually working out pretty well for them as they go around conquering the surrounding people with tons of extremely powerful fire spirits; the only problem is that they are no longer us because we goofed on the last decision. It's probably a much better idea to let the religion stay as it is for now (no need to start kicking up dissent for no decent reason when you already have the trump card to make sure the religious leaders don't get troublesome, namely, their secret). If it becomes a problem later on, we have all the tools we need now to take care of it... incidentally, it might be a good idea to make a few copies of what was found there so that future damages won't erase this knowledge.

With all that said, I'm going to completely disregard my own advice and say that we should authorize some sort of expedition into the western tunnels to find out the secret, hopefully we'll get some sort of stone Wielder or something. Screw the danger; we're really, really backwards by now if we were so much more advanced when we were forced down, so we may as well take the liberty of some ambition to see where that takes us.

 

[kazgar]

Shouldn't we secure the front we have before opening up another potential one? Just because we have information doesn't mean we have to act on it immediately. Right now the western tunnels, while interesting, are sealed off and are of no concern to the population. The religion, while based on lies and deceit, works well enough for the majority of the population. Undermining it will take time, and could lead to internal conflict and rebellion and further instability. Its all good to be metagamy athiest-types on a messageboard and happy to expose it, but we're playing the role to be ruler of a group of people and entrusted with their care, ruining the way of life in a matter of weeks may not be beneficial.

We should make sure that any changes to the religion are slow and steady, but probably done before we send the next lot of old people to their deaths (as I think that would be hard to stomach)

With all that in mind I would suggest: Keep the current mission going for another couple of weeks, primarily to secure passages/find a way to fortify the city against attacks. If we find more information or able to solve the problem once and for all, great. Meanwhile, work with the Priest on a plan to convince the populace that sending a exploratory missions to the western tunnels would be beneficial to all. Doing this with the priest means it can be couched in visions and portents, while still breaking down one of the tenants of the religion. Once the battle for minds has been won, then go forth and explore, but not with our rear flank totally exposed to mutants.

 

[oscar]

Maybe this universe is Fallout

 

[TOME]

These priests are pathetic buffons

I agree, they are rather useless, but comparing them to Italian goalkeepers seems a bit harsh.

the only problem is that they are no longer us because we goofed on the last decision

We didn't goof the last decision, it was the one before it. The one where we agreed decided to give the gem back to the Wielder.

But to the update. I agree with Kazgar, we should secure the front first. We have explored (and hopefully mapped) many passages already and is only a matter of time before we find where the mutants are coming from. And who knows, we might find alternate food source, even those mutants have to eat something? We can keep the sealed corridors in mind and explore them later.

Also have the old texts copied. We could have learned a lot more if they had been properly copied. This way we also get upperhand with the priests. And definitely start slowly undermining the religion.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Shouldn't we secure the front we have before opening up another potential one? Just because we have information doesn't mean we have to act on it immediately. Right now the western tunnels, while interesting, are sealed off and are of no concern to the population. The religion, while based on lies and deceit, works well enough for the majority of the population. Undermining it will take time, and could lead to internal conflict and rebellion and further instability. Its all good to be metagamy athiest-types on a messageboard and happy to expose it, but we're playing the role to be ruler of a group of people and entrusted with their care, ruining the way of life in a matter of weeks may not be beneficial.

We should make sure that any changes to the religion are slow and steady, but probably done before we send the next lot of old people to their deaths (as I think that would be hard to stomach)

With all that in mind I would suggest: Keep the current mission going for another couple of weeks, primarily to secure passages/find a way to fortify the city against attacks. If we find more information or able to solve the problem once and for all, great. Meanwhile, work with the Priest on a plan to convince the populace that sending a exploratory missions to the western tunnels would be beneficial to all. Doing this with the priest means it can be couched in visions and portents, while still breaking down one of the tenants of the religion. Once the battle for minds has been won, then go forth and explore, but not with our rear flank totally exposed to mutants.

You hit the nail on the head, agree with everything you said. This is my position and vote. Let's focus on the war and not undermine the foundation our society is built upon.

Edit:I do however want us to continue our campaign against the mutants for much longer. I am in favour of an extended campaign of at least six more months.

 

[Kipeci]

We didn't goof the last decision, it was the one before it. The one where we agreed decided to give the gem back to the Wielder.

The last decision was pretty obviously goofed, unless you have another way to describe getting ourselves incinerated and the game ended. Even for the people who just wanted the Wielder out entirely, I still can't understand why they thought that having all the old authority incinerated on the off chance of future revolts was a better way to resist the Wielder than surviving to plot another day. It's pretty obvious that I had no issue with the Fire Wielder as being our ruler, but I did want some sort of counterweight... well, too late for all of that now.

How will we make up for what is presumably a decent technological deficit from whatever peoples are left on the surface? Even if we do a lot of innovation, it'd still take a while back to get to our high point from so long ago, it seems...

 

[GameOver]

Shouldn't we secure the front we have before opening up another potential one? Just because we have information doesn't mean we have to act on it immediately. Right now the western tunnels, while interesting, are sealed off and are of no concern to the population. The religion, while based on lies and deceit, works well enough for the majority of the population. Undermining it will take time, and could lead to internal conflict and rebellion and further instability. Its all good to be metagamy athiest-types on a messageboard and happy to expose it, but we're playing the role to be ruler of a group of people and entrusted with their care, ruining the way of life in a matter of weeks may not be beneficial.

We should make sure that any changes to the religion are slow and steady, but probably done before we send the next lot of old people to their deaths (as I think that would be hard to stomach)

With all that in mind I would suggest: Keep the current mission going for another couple of weeks, primarily to secure passages/find a way to fortify the city against attacks. If we find more information or able to solve the problem once and for all, great. Meanwhile, work with the Priest on a plan to convince the populace that sending a exploratory missions to the western tunnels would be beneficial to all. Doing this with the priest means it can be couched in visions and portents, while still breaking down one of the tenants of the religion. Once the battle for minds has been won, then go forth and explore, but not with our rear flank totally exposed to mutants.

+1

 

[Zero Credibility]

Shouldn't we secure the front we have before opening up another potential one? Just because we have information doesn't mean we have to act on it immediately. Right now the western tunnels, while interesting, are sealed off and are of no concern to the population. The religion, while based on lies and deceit, works well enough for the majority of the population. Undermining it will take time, and could lead to internal conflict and rebellion and further instability. Its all good to be metagamy athiest-types on a messageboard and happy to expose it, but we're playing the role to be ruler of a group of people and entrusted with their care, ruining the way of life in a matter of weeks may not be beneficial.

We should make sure that any changes to the religion are slow and steady, but probably done before we send the next lot of old people to their deaths (as I think that would be hard to stomach)

With all that in mind I would suggest: Keep the current mission going for another couple of weeks, primarily to secure passages/find a way to fortify the city against attacks. If we find more information or able to solve the problem once and for all, great. Meanwhile, work with the Priest on a plan to convince the populace that sending a exploratory missions to the western tunnels would be beneficial to all. Doing this with the priest means it can be couched in visions and portents, while still breaking down one of the tenants of the religion. Once the battle for minds has been won, then go forth and explore, but not with our rear flank totally exposed to mutants.

Yeah, I'm also for this. Fortify on our frontline (or retreat to the city if that is not possible) and start planning for the expedition in the western tunnels. Whatever is stashed in there sounds like it could be useful for us - so let's find it. Just be careful for any traps left behind.

Also, that Miriam character really pisses me off. We had to hide in this cave from some catastrophe - fine. But then, instead of leaving to their descendants the information about the exact nature of the disaster and why we can't return to the surface she decides to destroy the information (and anybody even thinking about keeping it alive) and replace it with misinformation and religious bullshit, condemning everyone to stagnation and death in these fucking caves. Because apparently future generations couldn't be trusted with having accurate information to base their decisions on.

 

[Tigranes]

Such flip flop can't be great for morale though, esp. since we can't exactly tell everyone the reason.

Everything does seem to be pointing to the West though, and we still haven't found anything in the East that can help us against the weirdos. We haven't been tested yet so it's hard to say whether 'securing the front' in that manner will let us hold them at bay if they get really serious about it (which they must, as we are starting to squeeze out their space). Perhaps something more semi-permanent, like start to bring up big chunks of rock to pretty much block all shootoffs from that secure-point except one?

 

[kazgar]

Was part of the reason I said to continue on for a while, we may score a victory, but in either case we already have a better understanding of the tunnels out east, and if we block/fortify some we may provide ourselves some protection or reprieve, pulling everything back right now in a flip-flop is counterproductive.

Though it'll be funny if the west tunnels and the east ones are the same system and we're just a pocket of humanity in the middle. you didn't read that Curufinwe.

 

[TOME]

We didn't goof the last decision, it was the one before it. The one where we agreed decided to give the gem back to the Wielder.

The last decision was pretty obviously goofed, unless you have another way to describe getting ourselves incinerated and the game ended. Even for the people who just wanted the Wielder out entirely, I still can't understand why they thought that having all the old authority incinerated on the off chance of future revolts was a better way to resist the Wielder than surviving to plot another day.

The old authority was dead the moment we decided to give the gem back. I remember Curufinwe saying (might be wrong though) that the Wielder was going to kill some of the council anyway. And the idea was that by killing the council in front of everybody, some of the more moderate supporters would see the wielder in new light and silently start opposing him. Nobody guessed (or at least stated it out loud) that getting the council killed would be insta game over.

I guess it depends how each and everyone defines "goofed decision". The last vote didn't have any good option in my opinion so I don't think that one as goofed decision. But the vote before that we had all roads open to us and we decided to go between rock and a hard place. So that was goofed decision IMHO.

 

[Monty]

Nobody guessed (or at least stated it out loud) that getting the council killed would be insta game over.

Yes - although I disagreed with the suicide option, I can see why people thought that the LP would continue, as we were originally RPing the tribe before the council even existed, and we voted to be governed by a council as opposed to an individual. I think some people thought we'd continue as a tribe ruled by the wielder and some of those opposed to the wielder indulged in a bit of a 'told you so' moment with that vote.

But to be honest, I think Curufinwe was a bit tired of that timeline and wanted to progress things without 100 tech updates. And it would be almost impossible to write an engrossing LP as an all-powerful demonic tribe who go around crushing all opposition, being the underdog is often much more interesting in terms of C&C.

And besides we now have a new, interesting timeline so perhaps it's worked out ok in the end.

 

[Curufinwe]

Nobody guessed (or at least stated it out loud) that getting the council killed would be insta game over.

But to be honest, I think Curufinwe was a bit tired of that timeline and wanted to progress things without 100 tech updates. And it would be almost impossible to write an engrossing LP as an all-powerful demonic tribe who go around crushing all opposition, being the underdog is often much more interesting in terms of C&C.

And besides we now have a new, interesting timeline so perhaps it's worked out ok in the end.

Yes, the 100 tech updates were getting damn boring, true. But rest assured, I wasn't looking to end the LP OR you being the Obsidian Embers. Just, that combination of choices was (imo) particularly bad.

Regarding the new timeline, I just want to stress it's the same setting. Just a different place and/or time.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

If you REALLY don't want people to do something for not-entierly obvious, but still very good reasons, then wrapping it up in a religion is a fantastic idea. I would argue that most (all) of the ten commandments, much of the oldtestiment (there is a strong suggestion that dietery restrictions are a result of hygiene and food scarcity), a good part of most religions are as a result of this kind of idea.

A better question is if whatever was a huge threat XXXX years ago is still a threat? Even nuclear fallout would likely have gone away in 1k years.

 

[Curufinwe]

Though it'll be funny if the west tunnels and the east ones are the same system and we're just a pocket of humanity in the middle. you didn't read that Curufinwe.

Read what?

 

[Monty]

A better question is if whatever was a huge threat XXXX years ago is still a threat? Even nuclear fallout would likely have gone away in 1k years.

Yes, the ancient text implied there would be some sort of danger for a couple of hundred years, but we're clearly way past that. But because the original reasons for fleeing were replaced with religious dogma we could fester down here for ever. I agree that religious ideas often stem from good intentions (like pork being relatively unsafe in warm climates without refrigeration), the problem here though is they haven't built in an end point, like some sort of commandment to explore the sealed tunnels after a thousand years.

 

[GreyViper]

Shouldn't we secure the front we have before opening up another potential one? Just because we have information doesn't mean we have to act on it immediately. Right now the western tunnels, while interesting, are sealed off and are of no concern to the population. The religion, while based on lies and deceit, works well enough for the majority of the population. Undermining it will take time, and could lead to internal conflict and rebellion and further instability. Its all good to be metagamy athiest-types on a messageboard and happy to expose it, but we're playing the role to be ruler of a group of people and entrusted with their care, ruining the way of life in a matter of weeks may not be beneficial.

We should make sure that any changes to the religion are slow and steady, but probably done before we send the next lot of old people to their deaths (as I think that would be hard to stomach)

With all that in mind I would suggest: Keep the current mission going for another couple of weeks, primarily to secure passages/find a way to fortify the city against attacks. If we find more information or able to solve the problem once and for all, great. Meanwhile, work with the Priest on a plan to convince the populace that sending a exploratory missions to the western tunnels would be beneficial to all. Doing this with the priest means it can be couched in visions and portents, while still breaking down one of the tenants of the religion. Once the battle for minds has been won, then go forth and explore, but not with our rear flank totally exposed to mutants.

+1 To this, but if we do run into Miriam I suspect she wont be friend of ours. Because we want everything she abandoned, besides she reminds me of Wielder.

 

[AstralStorm]

Crazed old bat in the middle of somewhere vs army? Not that dangerous. Need to take anything Miriam says or does with a grain of salt, sounds like a manipulative type.
Well, unless said Spark is something highly destructive... Best to rely on diplomacy.

+1 for fortifying the city/passages. After that's done, let's explore the other options since we have no reasonable way to pass through the cave maze without spreading the army far too thinly or having the city exposed.

 

[kazgar]

Also would require Miriam to be immortal or close to, sounds like we're many generations past the time those journals were updated.

 

[Esquilax]

All hail Sister Miriam:

I agree completely with kazgar. You can't project your 21st century secular views on a superstitious people in a world where supernatural forces clearly have power and the religion, as false as it is, developed for a reason. Vernydar, so what if it's a hoax? I don't see any alternatives.

Miriam knows full well there's no food in those tunnels, so it was a death penalty.

There is no food within the Sealed Corridors. One less reason to go in there.

We will always honour the sacrifices of the... **** ...Archons. Their deeds will be forever remembered, their supreme and last effort in hiding us from... **** .... may they find peace.'

Speculation: The Archons seem to be the elite warrior-mages of our former society who gave their lives to buy time for the rest of the tribe to hide out from whatever danger came for them.

We have been dealt a harsh hand, but the alternative was much worse. I just wish... ****'

Miriam was adamant in saying that we had to forget, or the temptation to go back to the surface would be too strong. A series of myths will be taught to our children forbidding us to even try it. I have no idea how she plans to enforce it.'

So leaving the caves was so dangerous that everyone had to forget about anything pertaining to their past lives. That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement for opening the Sealed Corridors.

'****... found a young boy manifesting the Spark with a strength I haven't seen before. I can't teach him, but at least I can make sure he won't die because of it. I decided to take him under my wing and teach him all I can, to prepare him for government. He's a good lad, he'll... ****'

This implies that they killed those who possessed 'The Spark'. It's clear that magic is a very volatile thing in this setting, perhaps they had to kill people with magical aptitude because those were the ones who initially caused the cataclysm.

I have read the journal and must concur with Eldest Miriam's conclusions. I have never known her, but it's obvious she was a woman of great wisdom and strength of character. What she brought with her must never be uncovered. Nobody but me knows the truth.

'****.... and was named high priest. Of a religion based on death. It's horrible, but necessary. My first decree is to name the western tunnels as forbidden ground. Whatever Eldest Miriam brought with her must never be recovered.

We should continue with this expedition and not open the Sealed Corridors unless we absolutely must. I agree with kazgar pretty much completely. However, I think we ought to continue with the expedition as is, because we have only just begun. I suspect that the scrap of paper that we found was not the only one, there are others like it written by other people that Miriam had exiled. If we continue, I'm certain we can find more clues as to where the magically hidden passage might be located.

 

[Monty]

Miriam knows full well there's no food in those tunnels, so it was a death penalty.

There is no food within the Sealed Corridors. One less reason to go in there.

This is not referring to the sealed corridors, but the Eastern corridors the elderly were sent to - ie: the ones we are currently exploring with our army. So the only thing we could find in the Eastern corridors, apart from enemies, is the entrance which was apparently hidden by Miriam. So going to her final resting place, the sealed tunnels, is our best hope of finding clues as to where the entrance is.

 

[AstralStorm]

I'd brofist the above but ran out of fists.

The main problem is that we don't know what's beyond the Sealed Corridors. Might well be some alternate exit or more danger.
Likely some artifacts of ages long gone - which could be used either to bolster or crush the religion as we see fit or rally people to move out in case of dissent.
Who knows, maybe even something useful is down there.

 

[Curufinwe]

This implies that they killed those who possessed 'The Spark'. It's clear that magic is a very volatile thing in this setting, perhaps they had to kill people with magical aptitude because those were the ones who initially caused the cataclysm.

It was more a 'without the modicum of teaching I can give he'll die' than 'they'll kill him if they find out'.

 

[TOME]

Update coming any time soon?