Neverwinter Nights is 15 years old!

[Roguey]

Off-topic, but these forums would be better off with less Sawyer fangirling in general.

I thought I was the only who one did that? And I haven't even done so in a while. I guess Infinitron and Prime Junta are noticeably neutral-positive much to the annoyance of many.

 

[JarlFrank]

So are there any other mods in the vein of Dance with Rogues, cause I like the non-combat gameplay in that one and the writing.

And yes I know there's a deciated NWN module thread.

I just want to pull this thread into a less embarrassing line of discussion.

 

[Lhynn]

You can have a party in NWN; more than six, too. Dozens.

Cant control them, doesnt count.

Disarm can be encounter-changing.

Sure, a few very rare encounters.

Point is, NWN fighter game-play is deeper than BG fighter game-play. In fact, deeper across all classes. Rogues are amazing, and arcane casters have access to metamagic and other tactical feats and skills. NWN is great for duels of any kind. And only wusses don't enter into duels whenever they can.

Sure, but BG tactical layer is simply deeper when you handle a full party than nwns, even a party of all fighters.

 

[Urthor]

And then modders made fun campaigns & mods! Don't you wish modern BioWare was like that, instead of a fantasy dating sim company?

Week late with the response to this, but those campaigns were fun in spite of, not because of, the Neverwinter Engine and gameplay itself. It's like an Elder Scrolls mod, some of them you just have to applaud and give credit to, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good because of Skyrim's awesome combat engine and gameplay. They're good because some basement battler made a work of art out of shitty parts that happen to fit together in a nice way.

If Bioware had made Dragon Age 2 fully moddable with all the player created campaigns n shit it would still be a garbage game with MMO gameplay, and I have a hard time picking between the latter two Dragon Ages and Neverwinter for the absolute worst gameplay of any Bioware game.

 

[Lacrymas]

No wonder RPGs declined and are still declining, even fans of the genre can't recognize what is good. NWN doesn't have bad gameplay.

 

[felipepepe]

I have a hard time picking between the latter two Dragon Ages and Neverwinter for the absolute worst gameplay of any Bioware game.

Then you shouldn't be trusted when talking about RPGs. The diference is massive.

 

[buru5]

Once I finish up with Divinity: Original Sin I'm going to replay this game + the xpacs. Lilura has inspired me to give this game another shot.

 

[Lacrymas]

Once I finish up with Divinity: Original Sin I'm going to replay this game + the xpacs. Lilura has inspired me to give this game another shot.

If by "this game" you mean the OC, then don't. Either start with the expansions or give modules a try, like Swordflight.

 

[buru5]

Once I finish up with Divinity: Original Sin I'm going to replay this game + the xpacs. Lilura has inspired me to give this game another shot.

If by "this game" you mean the OC, then don't. Either start with the expansions or give modules a try, like Swordflight.

I mean the full package, so yeah including the OC and the expansions. I've played the original game before and don't hate it as much as others seem to.

 

[Roguey]

Then you shouldn't be trusted when talking about RPGs. The diference is massive.

Yeah, NWN is much worse.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I just want to pull this thread into a less embarrassing line of discussion.

You'd better have some serious strength boosters then. The DC for this is really high.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I just want to pull this thread into a less embarrassing line of discussion.

You'd better have some serious strength boosters then. The DC for this is really high.

Yeah, you know it. On an RPG discussion board and some people don't even know the difference between competent combat mechanics and bad companion AI. Oh well, watcha gonna do eh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Grunker]

But it wasn't even that good? Way more effort was put into it being super moddable and allowing players to make campaigns than was put into it being actually fun.

And then modders made fun campaigns & mods! Don't you wish modern BioWare was like that, instead of a fantasy dating sim company?

no mods could fix the shitty base that was nwn

 

[Delterius]

I wonder if companion control is part of combat mechanics.

Naaah.

 

[Lacrymas]

Cant control them, doesnt count.

Well, technically you can, from the radial menu that pops up by right-clicking their portrait.

 

[Krivol]

Cant control them, doesnt count.

Well, technically you can, from the radial menu that pops up by right-clicking their portrait.

Yeah, just like you can control traffic jam by shouting on other drivers...

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I wonder if companion control is part of combat mechanics.

Naaah.

The AI is how the AI deals with combat mechanics. If the mechanics are there but the AI can't handle them properly then that's not the fault of the mechanics, its the fault of the AI.

 

[Lacrymas]

Wow, all this jumping through hoops and mental gymnastics just to try and fail to shit on NWN and cover the lack of good taste.

 

[Delterius]

I wonder if companion control is part of combat mechanics.

Naaah.

The AI is how the AI deals with combat mechanics. If the mechanics are there but the AI can't handle them properly then that's not the fault of the mechanics, its the fault of the AI.

The fact that you're relying on the AI to play the game for you already demonstrates that single player combat is subpar. Not only is the AI kinda shitty, but their shittiness is not an impediment to succeeding at Neverwinter Nights. Even if the AI was great it wouldn't make the game any good, the same way the gambit systems from DA:O and FFXII don't make or break their combat systems.

Wow, all this jumping through hoops and mental gymnastics just to try and fail to shit on NWN and cover the lack of good taste.

I have praised a game while at the same time considering some of its technical aspects to be subpar. If you think calling people names for that sort of opinion is not a display of absolute fanboyism, why, there's no such thing in the world.

Say it with me: "Neverwinter Nights is the most perfect piece of media ever divined by mortals and only True Fans of Taste® who are deserving may appreciate that fact. Praise be.".

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I wonder if companion control is part of combat mechanics.

Naaah.

The AI is how the AI deals with combat mechanics. If the mechanics are there but the AI can't handle them properly then that's not the fault of the mechanics, its the fault of the AI.

The fact that you're relying on the AI to play the game for you already demonstrates that single player combat is subpar. Not only is the AI kinda shitty, but their shittiness is not an impediment to succeeding at Neverwinter Nights. Even if the AI was great it wouldn't make the game any good, the same way the gambit systems from DA:O and FFXII don't make or break their combat systems.

You seem to be confusing people who fanboy D&D with people who fanboy NWN. The people who can cope with shoddy companion AI are not praising NWN as a standalone entity, they are praising its implementation of D&D mechanics.

In comparison to other game's attempts at implementing D&D mechanics it comes up above average. If you want a game with good D&D mechanics then NWN is a good example.

However, you're making rather irrational comparisons to all kinds of other RPGs that, to be honest, have fuck all to do with D&D.

It's extremely simple:

NWN has appalling companion AI.

That's it. That's all there is to it. The codex top 50 games is absolutely littered with games that completely suck at one particular aspect, but get a pass. But you, for whatever reason, wont allow this game to pass. You're welcome to have that opinion, but there's no need to dress your opinion up as some kind of definite objective fact which requires 200 pages of hyperbole to cover up. You personally don't like the shitty companion AI in NWN and you can't be arsed to try and mitigate it, for whatever other undefined personal taste issue you have.

You're being like the retards who refuse to respect IE games because they have bad pathfinding. You know, that one Achilles heel that somehow makes an otherwise competent game suddenly unpraisable cos of that one tiny little thing.

The OC to NWN didn't help matters by being more boring that watching paint dry. I mean, exploring the sewers for hours on end in a fantasy RPG? Maybe in a Fallout-like game, but in a fantasy game, and with no interesting sewer-based monsters of fantasy. Jeezus, just give me a sedative, its quicker.

However, once the game is actually interesting, or relateable to normal D&D fantasy, such as the pure dungeon crawl Hordes of the Underdark, then the problem of companion AI is but a small and relatively insignificant element to the whole. The mitigating is simply:

1) Play on default settings and allow your companions to get up after combat without Resurrection and enjoy the game for the companion related talky what-nots. If you don't want a game where you just 'do stuff' while your companions boot-up their next dialogue options then there are tuns of cRPGs you probably wont like, its a distaste for a genre rather than a factual problem with the game.

or

2) Set the game to regular hardcore rules and don't care about companions and treat the game like a single character D&D adventure. If you want to get in a paddy about not wanting to play a single character D&D adventure, then that's just personal taste, there's nothing factual there to be discussed.

And under both conditions you have an above average, competent, cRPG.

Amazing isn't it, you're bitching like its DA2 level of diarrhoea when, in reality, its just another slightly flawed gem, like pretty much every game the codex praises. Except this game had D&D, which, theoretically, should give it more support round here rather than less.

 

[Delterius]

Neverwinter Nights has a bad combat engine for single player combat. It works well enough in multiplayer, which shows that fundamental flaw: you need multiple people to control an average D&D party. This is not a good computer implementation of D&D. This goes beyond AI. It goes to the need of an AI in the first place.

To say nothing at all of turn based games, Dragon Age: Origins, Pillars of Eternity, the Infinity Engine series and even Final Fantasy XII is a short list of RTwP party based games where I wouldn't let the AI do anything at all. Because controlling multiple people in those games is a breeze compared to Neverwinter Nights. And one of these games is a console exclusive. Coordination is at your fingertips. This causes ripples in the entire combat system.

Neverwinter Nights however is a different game with a different focus. Combat works decent enough in multiplayer but that's that. Its UI is not suited to controlling half a dozen people or more. Which is not to say that its impossible. I played expansions to both NwNs and they weren't a fun experience for their combat. That is the one flaw that makes this a 'flawed gem'. This is why the OC was such a disappointment. All it had was troves of combat. Cue the people considering the expansions a successful saving throw because they toned down the bad combat and added more Adventure/Dialogue based content. Never wondered why Mask of the Betrayer is so much more loved than all the other official content for Neverwinter Nights? Its because it has something to it that isn't combat centric.

The game works as a CYOA and it works as multiplayer D&D. I never disputed that. I've done more to estabilish that in these threads than most of the Neverwinter Nights Jihad Squad. It doesn't however stack up very well when compared to other single player implementations of D&D. The fact that the latter is present even in the CYOAest of modules makes me think this is a flaw. Not just any flaw, but a flaw with the most central activity of the game. Even Age of Decadence would be that much worse if the only fun move avaiable in combat was actually the Pacifist run. Which is why IMO its score is a 5/10 with an added situational modifier based on the module being played (minus 2 for the OC, plus 2 for a legendary PS:T tier story and CYOA with hopefully very little combat).

The only people who can read this and my other posts in these threads and think its me 'not letting the game pass' whatever mystical metric exists in their heads is just acting acting defensive. If you want to talk flawed gems: nobody in the Codex is too shy to point out the MANY ways in which Arcanum sucks and none of its fans, myself included, would act as though that game is release worthy. It is not. Troika died for a reason. And the aids of the Electron engine was born out of Aurora's polio.

 

[Grunker]

you need multiple people to control an average D&D party

Baldur's Gate did it fine, NWN is just shit

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Neverwinter Nights has a bad combat engine for single player combat. It works well enough in multiplayer, which shows that fundamental flaw: you need multiple people to control an average D&D party. This is not a good computer implementation of D&D. This goes beyond AI. It goes to the need of an AI in the first place.

To say nothing at all of turn based games, Dragon Age: Origins, Pillars of Eternity, the Infinity Engine series and even Final Fantasy XII is a short list of RTwP party based games where I wouldn't let the AI do anything at all. Because controlling multiple people in those games is a breeze compared to Neverwinter Nights. And one of these games is a console exclusive. Coordination is at your fingertips. This causes ripples in the entire combat system.

Neverwinter Nights however is a different game with a different focus. Combat works decent enough in multiplayer but that's that. Its UI is not suited to controlling half a dozen people or more. Which is not to say that its impossible. I played expansions to both NwNs and they weren't a fun experience for their combat. That is the one flaw that makes this a 'flawed gem'. This is why the OC was such a disappointment. All it had was troves of combat. Cue the people considering the expansions a successful saving throw because they toned down the bad combat and added more Adventure/Dialogue based content. Never wondered why Mask of the Betrayer is so much more loved than all the other official content for Neverwinter Nights? Its because it has something to it that isn't combat centric.

The game works as a CYOA and it works as multiplayer D&D. I never disputed that. I've done more to estabilish that in these threads than most of the Neverwinter Nights Jihad Squad. It doesn't however stack up very well when compared to other single player implementations of D&D. The fact that the latter is present even the CYOAest of modules makes me think this is a flaw. Not just any flaw, but a flaw with the most central activity of the game. Even Age of Decadence would be that much worse if the only fun move avaiable in combat is actually the Pacifist run. Which is why IMO its score is a 5/10 with an added situational modifier based on the module being played (minus 2 for the OC, plus 2 for a legendary PS:T tier story and CYOA with hopefully very little combat).

The only people who can read this and my other posts in these threads and think its me 'not letting the game pass' whatever mystical metric exists in their heads is just acting acting defensive. If you want to talk flawed gems: nobody in the Codex is too shy to point out the MANY ways in which Arcanum sucks and none of its fans, myself included, would act as though that game is release worthy. It is not. Troika died for a reason. And the aids of the Electron engine was born out of Aurora's polio.

The combat in HotU is fine.

There are precious few trash combats. Most all of the combat is hand placed strategic encounters, often integrated within a puzzle which requires solving around the combat. Defeating enemies requires skill and the skills of your build. Even an amazing build will result in reloads from expert players who lapse in concentration and/or get complacent. Monster variety is excellent, with a large quantity of attacks types to mitigate against/find a way to neutralise. Loot is interesting and fascinating without being overabundant and is extremely suited to character building.

I have no idea why you feel the need to write so much about so little.

 

[hell bovine]

you need multiple people to control an average D&D party

Baldur's Gate did it fine, NWN is just shit

Baldur's Gate had good party control, but terrible pathfinding and combat AI (Firewine dungeon with a full party & summons in unmodded BG1 was just... painful), like other IE games. Ironically BG's combat got saved by mods, most notably SCS. The annoying thing is, IE games had the potential. There is one IWD2 combat mod that changes the Targos prologue (Undead Targos), showing what could have been made with this game.

 

[Grunker]

The pathfinding issues are overstated and companion AI isn't needed, because if you know what you're doing in these games, you aren't leaving control to the AI.