7h30n
Augur
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2012
- Messages
- 311
megidolaon this looks really good! Do you plan on open sourcing your project? I'd really like to take a peek since I've started making a Doom style engine with Common Lisp.
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my dungeon crawler project
- Thread starter megidolaon
- Start date
-
- Tags
- blobber dungeon crawler lisp
megidolaon
Kyoto Cybernetics
I do plan to! Some time after the game is finally released (and also probably after a couple major inevitable bugfix versions), I'm going to tidy up the source some more, make indentations neater-looking, add comments and docstrings to EVERYTHING in the source, and then release it.
V_K
Arcane
Sounds fun actually.And would a monster (much later on in probably the final few dungeons) who has a psionic attack which erases heroes' memories so they've only foggy recollections of many previously mapped areas be too cruel? Just throwing the idea out there
Dorateen
Arcane
That does sound fun. But one thing to consider. An automap feature can be used as an abstraction of the characters actually making maps, especially when tied to a character skill like Cartographer. There could even be a physical inventory item like Wizardry 7's journey map kit. In which case, more than just having memories wiped out, a monster would have to pilfer through the party's belongings and rip up their maps... also an interesting concept.
Anyway, I'm always up for a good mapping challenge.
Anyway, I'm always up for a good mapping challenge.
V_K
Arcane
Not necessarily. A map isn't of much use if you don't know (don't remember) where you are on it.
It is a bit disappointing to me personally that this game won't have devilish mazes full of spinners, teleporters and dark areas, but if that's your preference fair enough. In this case, having an automap is the logical choice too.
megidolaon
Kyoto Cybernetics
Never say never. Ordinary castles may resemble castles and sewers may resemble sewers and crypts may resemble crypts, for example, but the madman the heroes are chasing would be silly and short-sighted not to have constructed his basalt demon-guarded fortress-tower at the end of the game full of these kinds of twisted mazes. Besides I did already program a lot of these mechanics in and I don't want to put them to waste
megidolaon
i know you probably don't really care about my input but i'm an autistic crawler geek and i think what you're crafting has potentional to be good. in no particular order some off-the-cuff suggestions and observations, (and i know full well how pretentious my posts sound), and i wouldn't even bother if it wasn't 100% obvious you actually have appreciation and knowledge for the crawler genre:
REGARDING AUTO-MAPPING
There are several ways to integrate a modern feature like auto-mapping in a meaningful way such as:
MAZE NAVIGATION WHEN THEY ARE TRAVERSING THINGS AS SPINNERS/WARPS/CHUTES/ETC; EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE USING AN AUTO-MAP THEY WILL THEN STILL NEED TO AT LEAST "LEARN" THE BASIC SPATIAL ORIENTATIONS OF WHERE THE FUCK THEY ARE.
(MORE PRETENTIOUS, PROBABLY UNSOLICITED SUGGESTIONS INCOMING...)
i know you probably don't really care about my input but i'm an autistic crawler geek and i think what you're crafting has potentional to be good. in no particular order some off-the-cuff suggestions and observations, (and i know full well how pretentious my posts sound), and i wouldn't even bother if it wasn't 100% obvious you actually have appreciation and knowledge for the crawler genre:
REGARDING AUTO-MAPPING
There are several ways to integrate a modern feature like auto-mapping in a meaningful way such as:
- Limit access to the in-game Auto-Map by making it available to the player only through a 1st spell-school level spell, such as in classic Wizardry (and basically any Wiz-clone).
- (Optionally) in addition, and in order to cater to magic-less parties: have a moderately priced and/or moderately limited quantity (not both!) "Magic Map" items sold. Don't do both things of over-pricing the magic map and limiting quantity: only one or the other.
- When the player access either their spell-Map or consumes one of their magical maps HAVE A GIANT LEGIBLE "COUNTER" TELLING THE PLAYER EXACTLY HOW MANY USES OF THE MAP-SPELL THEY HAVE LEFT, AND WHICH CHARACTER HAS THEM; AND ALSO HOW MANY MAGICAL MAPS THEY HAVE LEFT.
- Having that counter/number visible to the player whenver they expend a Map-spell or Map-consumable invigorates a sense of urgency in the beginning stages of a crawl when everything (all resources!) are limited either by quantity, price, level or party composion / classes.
- (This is a big one)...
REGARDLESS OF WHAT OPTION YOU IMPLEMENT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW A VISIBLE REPRESENTATION OF THE PLAYER LOCATION WHEN THE CHARACTER USES THEIR MAGIC-MAP ITEM AND/OR/EITHER THEIR SPELL-MAP SPELL.
MAZE NAVIGATION WHEN THEY ARE TRAVERSING THINGS AS SPINNERS/WARPS/CHUTES/ETC; EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE USING AN AUTO-MAP THEY WILL THEN STILL NEED TO AT LEAST "LEARN" THE BASIC SPATIAL ORIENTATIONS OF WHERE THE FUCK THEY ARE.
(MORE PRETENTIOUS, PROBABLY UNSOLICITED SUGGESTIONS INCOMING...)
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DO NOT, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ALLOW SUB-CLASSING.
I recommend utilizing the tried and true Wiz-clone blueprint for class-changing (and feel free to tweak it by implementing "skills", like in Elminage, etc); sub-classing is a cusualized approach to party-building which allows players to have their cake and "eat it too". (yes, I used quotes on that).
The purpose of changing classes has obvious and permanent benefits in traditional Wiz-clone crawler blueprint but by not being to sub-class, and the fact that changing your class resets the single most important character attribute in a Wiz-clone or Wiz-derivative crawler, i.e. the CHARACTER LEVEL is something that Greenberg and Woodhead thought about a lot when they were making Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord and there is a reason they playtested the game for more than 1 entire year before releasing it.
In an incredibly superficial mini list the main benefits of the Wiz-clone blueprint in regards to class-changing is:
I realize this is a very specific example of why I maintain that sub-classing is not as deep as Wiz-clone style class changing but it is also the best and easiest example to bring up to those who argue that class changing in Wiz is only good for getting spells. Only those that have an intermediate grasp of Wiz-derivative crawler systems argue that; until they realize when they hit end-game / post-game challenges that contrary to what the previously believed a creative player can find a use for any class change depending on their play style.
I recommend utilizing the tried and true Wiz-clone blueprint for class-changing (and feel free to tweak it by implementing "skills", like in Elminage, etc); sub-classing is a cusualized approach to party-building which allows players to have their cake and "eat it too". (yes, I used quotes on that).
The purpose of changing classes has obvious and permanent benefits in traditional Wiz-clone crawler blueprint but by not being to sub-class, and the fact that changing your class resets the single most important character attribute in a Wiz-clone or Wiz-derivative crawler, i.e. the CHARACTER LEVEL is something that Greenberg and Woodhead thought about a lot when they were making Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord and there is a reason they playtested the game for more than 1 entire year before releasing it.
In an incredibly superficial mini list the main benefits of the Wiz-clone blueprint in regards to class-changing is:
- It is permanent. It forces the player engage deeply with the game's mechanical systems and fully understand exactly why they want to class change.
- It is a deceptively layered way of prolonging player interaction long after they have probably finished it: an easy example would be...
- The vast majority of players are quick to tell you class changing a magic using character in a Wiz-blueprint crawler into a "Fighter-type" that gains no magical or extra-abilities is a "probably a waste of time"; they are wrong because that advice is both true and also false because...
- The Wiz-formula has always dictated that they first 10 levels of Character Advancement are "quick". The different XP tables are always, always, designed so as to make the levels 11-20 take progressively longer, by several orders of exponential magnitude, than going from character levels 1-10: this means that by mid-game and onwards, in a well-designed Wiz-derivative crawler, a player can easily change a spell-caster's class into a pure Fighter specifically so that character can begin gaining those "quick" levels 1-10 which will allow the previously "frail" caster-type character to quickly "bulk up" their VITALITY/STRENGTH and Hit Points.
- Once this hypothetical magic-caster Type has done his quick Fighter 1-10 they can then go on to the "real class" they wanted to continue supplementing their magic casting but with probably 2x or 3x the amount of hit points and probably a much better Attribute Spread.
I realize this is a very specific example of why I maintain that sub-classing is not as deep as Wiz-clone style class changing but it is also the best and easiest example to bring up to those who argue that class changing in Wiz is only good for getting spells. Only those that have an intermediate grasp of Wiz-derivative crawler systems argue that; until they realize when they hit end-game / post-game challenges that contrary to what the previously believed a creative player can find a use for any class change depending on their play style.
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I currently do not know if you're planning on implementing a wide array of "unidentified items" or in what way, but I propose considering the idea of allowing the ability to identify items (or anything else! there is no law that says only weaponry/gear has to be unidentified); allowing this ability either:
- Spread around several character classes (i.e. "Bard"-type appraisal, traditional "Bishop"-type magical identification through the touching of said items, taking a cue from D and D and implementing a variation or straight up simple copy/paste of the ability for "Rogue"-type learning of some sort through level advancement, or whatever, for "UMD" i.e. universal magic device; and of course the option to simply ape the Elminage approach of providing a generic list of Skills/Abilities that can be selected upon char-gen and including for some classes an item identification analog ability that they can freely choose.)
- Of course you should also provide at least 2 other meaningful Ability/Skill choices, if this Elminage-type route of char-gen ability/skill selection is chosen (which I think is the best out of all modern Wiz-blueprint derivative crawlers); allowing the Thief-type to choose from the "UMD"-type ability, or the ability to steal (or to steal, uh, better...) and/or the traditional pick/locks etc. You are obviously an intelligent man from reading your initial page 1 posts (have not yet read page 2) so you obviously realize these are mere suggestions that are ripe for extrapolation.
- Spread around several character classes (i.e. "Bard"-type appraisal, traditional "Bishop"-type magical identification through the touching of said items, taking a cue from D and D and implementing a variation or straight up simple copy/paste of the ability for "Rogue"-type learning of some sort through level advancement, or whatever, for "UMD" i.e. universal magic device; and of course the option to simply ape the Elminage approach of providing a generic list of Skills/Abilities that can be selected upon char-gen and including for some classes an item identification analog ability that they can freely choose.)
- Of course you should also provide at least 2 other meaningful Ability/Skill choices, if this Elminage-type route of char-gen ability/skill selection is chosen (which I think is the best out of all modern Wiz-blueprint derivative crawlers); allowing the Thief-type to choose from the "UMD"-type ability, or the ability to steal (or to steal, uh, better...) and/or the traditional pick/locks etc. You are obviously an intelligent man from reading your initial page 1 posts (have not yet read page 2) so you obviously realize these are mere suggestions that are ripe for extrapolation.
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Ignoring almost everything you wrote about Attributes I suggest simply taking the tried and true, and in my pretentious opinion (a right one), simply building upon the almost perfectly balanced Wiz-blueprint approach to racial attributes of implementing... uh, racial attribtues, making each one meaningfully different (no extremes; i.e. there should be no obvious race for Thief-type, no obvious race for spells; and implementing a cap of +10 ~ +20, etc, on the initial racial attributes.
- Make sure this has meaningful game ramifications. In Wiz-clones the Every single point of STRENGTH represents approximately a 5% increase in the melee dmg the character deals. This means an Elminage human, whose STR caps at 18, will deal a whopping 20 % less maximum possible melee dmg than a 22 STR capped DWARF.
- See the... meaning? <(' '<)
- Make sure this has meaningful game ramifications. In Wiz-clones the Every single point of STRENGTH represents approximately a 5% increase in the melee dmg the character deals. This means an Elminage human, whose STR caps at 18, will deal a whopping 20 % less maximum possible melee dmg than a 22 STR capped DWARF.
- See the... meaning? <(' '<)
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Itemization, once again, I recommend utilizing the following template:
- A mix of fixed encounters inside dungeons which always drop "loot", and although I recommend straight-up Wiz-blueprint trapped-chests I realize not everybody feels as passionately as me about Skinner Box elements (heathens).
- "Loot" (this doesn't have to exclusively mean weaponry!!!) should never, ever be tied to specific monsters or specific encounters; loot should be "tiered" by FLOOR DIFFICULTY.
I REPEAT: PROBABLY THE SINGLE BIGGEST STRENGTH OF THE WIZ-BLUEPRINT'S EXTREMELY ELEGENT AND EXTREMELY SIMPLE ITEMEZATION IS THE FACT THAT THE PLAYER IS ALWAYS ENCOUNRAGED TO ADVENTURE FURTHER INTO THE UNKNOWN ABYSS AND IS ALWAYS ENTICED BY THE MYSTERY OF THE "NEXT FLOOR" BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT:
EACH NEW FLOOR = NEW SHIT (I REPEAT, SAID 'SHIT' DOES NOT HAVE TO EXCLUSIVELY BE WEAPONRY!!! WE CAN BE CREATIVE PEOPLE WHEN WE TRY!!!)
No hyperbole intended (jk, of course it is) after 35 years no RPG/crawler has yet to present a true 'crawler player with a better itemization philosophy than Wizardry 1-5 (and all of the derivatives, such as Elminage) with its simple rule of loot being tied to floors and not to monsters.
I cannot think of a better incentive for actual dungeon exploration than that. Whether the, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, perfect and yet to be bettered Skinner Box elements that follow, (i.e. the "Trapped Chest Scenario", is to your cup of tea or not, that's further extrapolation that while incredibly smart in its design, is not as integral to the experience as the basic, and primordial, "loot-to-floor".
- A mix of fixed encounters inside dungeons which always drop "loot", and although I recommend straight-up Wiz-blueprint trapped-chests I realize not everybody feels as passionately as me about Skinner Box elements (heathens).
- "Loot" (this doesn't have to exclusively mean weaponry!!!) should never, ever be tied to specific monsters or specific encounters; loot should be "tiered" by FLOOR DIFFICULTY.
I REPEAT: PROBABLY THE SINGLE BIGGEST STRENGTH OF THE WIZ-BLUEPRINT'S EXTREMELY ELEGENT AND EXTREMELY SIMPLE ITEMEZATION IS THE FACT THAT THE PLAYER IS ALWAYS ENCOUNRAGED TO ADVENTURE FURTHER INTO THE UNKNOWN ABYSS AND IS ALWAYS ENTICED BY THE MYSTERY OF THE "NEXT FLOOR" BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT:
EACH NEW FLOOR = NEW SHIT (I REPEAT, SAID 'SHIT' DOES NOT HAVE TO EXCLUSIVELY BE WEAPONRY!!! WE CAN BE CREATIVE PEOPLE WHEN WE TRY!!!)
No hyperbole intended (jk, of course it is) after 35 years no RPG/crawler has yet to present a true 'crawler player with a better itemization philosophy than Wizardry 1-5 (and all of the derivatives, such as Elminage) with its simple rule of loot being tied to floors and not to monsters.
I cannot think of a better incentive for actual dungeon exploration than that. Whether the, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, perfect and yet to be bettered Skinner Box elements that follow, (i.e. the "Trapped Chest Scenario", is to your cup of tea or not, that's further extrapolation that while incredibly smart in its design, is not as integral to the experience as the basic, and primordial, "loot-to-floor".
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MAGICAL WEAPONS THAT ARE OF "USE" TO THE PLAYER, SUCH AS (GENERIC EXAMPLE...) "BARD"-TYPE INSTRUMENTS SHOULD HAVE A POSSIBILITY OF BREAKING.
FROM READING YOUR PAGE 1 POSTS IT IS OBVIOUS YOU ARE TAKING CUES FROM WIZ 6 (A BAD IDEA IMO BUT HEY, <3) AND... DO YOU REMEMBER HOW PATHETICALLY BORING IT IS TO STEAMROLL WIZ 6-8 WITH PERMANENTLY-FUNCTIONAING BARDIC INSTRUMENTS THAT ALLOW MASS SLEEPING, HEALING, ETC?
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, "REALLY"? THE FACT THAT A PLAYER WILL THEN SPEND EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF HIS "BARD"-TYPE CHAR IN WIZ 6-8 USING AN INSTRUMENT. EVERY FIGHT. EVERY ROUND. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO.
DOES THAT SEEM LIKE FUN? NO, FUCK FUN. DOES THAT SEEM LIKE GOOD DESIGN? OF COURSE NOT.
AND YES, IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE D.W. BRADLEY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK A REAL CRAWLER IS.
FROM READING YOUR PAGE 1 POSTS IT IS OBVIOUS YOU ARE TAKING CUES FROM WIZ 6 (A BAD IDEA IMO BUT HEY, <3) AND... DO YOU REMEMBER HOW PATHETICALLY BORING IT IS TO STEAMROLL WIZ 6-8 WITH PERMANENTLY-FUNCTIONAING BARDIC INSTRUMENTS THAT ALLOW MASS SLEEPING, HEALING, ETC?
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, "REALLY"? THE FACT THAT A PLAYER WILL THEN SPEND EVERY SINGLE ROUND OF HIS "BARD"-TYPE CHAR IN WIZ 6-8 USING AN INSTRUMENT. EVERY FIGHT. EVERY ROUND. WHY? BECAUSE THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO.
DOES THAT SEEM LIKE FUN? NO, FUCK FUN. DOES THAT SEEM LIKE GOOD DESIGN? OF COURSE NOT.
AND YES, IT IS SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE D.W. BRADLEY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK A REAL CRAWLER IS.
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Also, as Crooked Bee mentioned:
- The real enjoyment of a crawler is mastering the (hopefully) layered and meaningful choices presented to the player in the form of: Classes, Races, Class-Changing pros/cons/possibilies, the all-important ITEMIZATION, and the other most important SPELL-IZAMATION (TM).
- Why? Because then the player will feel rewarded by the game when their intelligent decision making (i.e. the above mentioned shit) allows their party to overcome THE DEVILISH FUCKING MAZES.
- A "devilish maze" does not mean a hard maze.
- A "devilish maze" does not mean an obtuse maze.
WHAT DOES CROOKED BEE MEAN, THEN, BY IMPLEMENTATION OF "DEVILISH MAZING"?
HE/SHE (HEY, THIS IS THE CODEX, AFTER 10 YEARS I DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE IS THE GENDER THEY SAY THEY ARE); HE/SHE MEANS...
DESIGNING A MAZE THAT CHALLENGES THE PLAYER IN THE FORM OF HOW THEY CAN USE THE RESOURCES AT THEIR DISPOSAL (CHARACTER RACES/CLASSES/GOLD PIECES/LEVELS/_SPELLS_/ITEM DISCOVERY/ETC/MOTHERFUCKING HIT POINTS/etc/etc) IN ORDER TO SUCCESSFULLY REACH THE NEXT "FLOOR".
THIS CAN BE DONE VIA A SURPRISINGLY LARGE NUMBER OF WAYS BUT THE TRADITIONAL ONES ARE:
- PRESENTING THE PLAYER WITH THE CHALLENGE OF GETTING THEIR NEWB-ASS SHIT PARTY FROM POINT a TO POINT b AND THEN IMPLEMENTING ANY NUMBER OF SHIT THAT WILL MAKE THAT GOAL CHALLENGING AND FUN.
- EASY EXAMPLE: ELMINAGE GOTHIC'S "ICE CAVE". THE ONLY CHALLENGE IN THAT WONDERFULLY DESIGNED DUNGEON IS REACHING THE NEXT FLOOR. WHY IS IT "DIFFICULT"? BECAUSE THE PLAYER CAN ONLY TRAVERSE THE ICE CAVE BY "SLIDING" ALONG "ICE PATHS".
- THIS IS CALLED, NON-OFFICIALLY, "SPATIAL/NAGIVATIONAL PUZZLES, AND/OR, "A TREADMILL/SLIDE MAZE".
- THE AFOREMENTIONED ELMINAGE: GOTHIC ICE CAVE DUNGEON CHALLENGING THE PLAYER TO SIMPLY FIND THE CORRECT ORDER OF ICE PATHS THEY NEED TO UTILIZE TO EVENTUALLY, EVENTUALLY, REACH A POINT OF THE MAZE WHERE THEY FINALLY GAIN THE "ABILITY" TO FLOAT OVER THE ICE.
- IT IS INCREDIBLY SIMPLE. IT IS INCREDIBLE FUN. WHY? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHILE THE PLAYER IS FUCKING AROUND PLAYING "ICE SLIDES" THEY WILL BE RUNNING INTO ALL OF THE MYRIAD, AND ALREADY ESTABLISHED BY THAT POINT, "OBSTACLES" SUCH AS: FIXED ENEMY ENCOUNTERS AT THE END OF A SLIDE (OBVIOUSLY THE TRICK LIES IN NOT BEING A DICK ABOUT SUCH THINGS: A PLAYER SHOULD NEVER FIND THE AFOREMENTIONED ICE SLIDING TEDIOUS!!!!!); A SURPRISE REWARD FOR BLINDLY SLIDING LIKE A MORON AND VOILA ENDING UP IN SOME "SECRET" AREA WITH _INSERT WHATEVER RELEVANT REWARDS_; etc.
- The real enjoyment of a crawler is mastering the (hopefully) layered and meaningful choices presented to the player in the form of: Classes, Races, Class-Changing pros/cons/possibilies, the all-important ITEMIZATION, and the other most important SPELL-IZAMATION (TM).
- Why? Because then the player will feel rewarded by the game when their intelligent decision making (i.e. the above mentioned shit) allows their party to overcome THE DEVILISH FUCKING MAZES.
- A "devilish maze" does not mean a hard maze.
- A "devilish maze" does not mean an obtuse maze.
WHAT DOES CROOKED BEE MEAN, THEN, BY IMPLEMENTATION OF "DEVILISH MAZING"?
HE/SHE (HEY, THIS IS THE CODEX, AFTER 10 YEARS I DON'T BELIEVE ANYONE IS THE GENDER THEY SAY THEY ARE); HE/SHE MEANS...
DESIGNING A MAZE THAT CHALLENGES THE PLAYER IN THE FORM OF HOW THEY CAN USE THE RESOURCES AT THEIR DISPOSAL (CHARACTER RACES/CLASSES/GOLD PIECES/LEVELS/_SPELLS_/ITEM DISCOVERY/ETC/MOTHERFUCKING HIT POINTS/etc/etc) IN ORDER TO SUCCESSFULLY REACH THE NEXT "FLOOR".
THIS CAN BE DONE VIA A SURPRISINGLY LARGE NUMBER OF WAYS BUT THE TRADITIONAL ONES ARE:
- PRESENTING THE PLAYER WITH THE CHALLENGE OF GETTING THEIR NEWB-ASS SHIT PARTY FROM POINT a TO POINT b AND THEN IMPLEMENTING ANY NUMBER OF SHIT THAT WILL MAKE THAT GOAL CHALLENGING AND FUN.
- EASY EXAMPLE: ELMINAGE GOTHIC'S "ICE CAVE". THE ONLY CHALLENGE IN THAT WONDERFULLY DESIGNED DUNGEON IS REACHING THE NEXT FLOOR. WHY IS IT "DIFFICULT"? BECAUSE THE PLAYER CAN ONLY TRAVERSE THE ICE CAVE BY "SLIDING" ALONG "ICE PATHS".
- THIS IS CALLED, NON-OFFICIALLY, "SPATIAL/NAGIVATIONAL PUZZLES, AND/OR, "A TREADMILL/SLIDE MAZE".
- THE AFOREMENTIONED ELMINAGE: GOTHIC ICE CAVE DUNGEON CHALLENGING THE PLAYER TO SIMPLY FIND THE CORRECT ORDER OF ICE PATHS THEY NEED TO UTILIZE TO EVENTUALLY, EVENTUALLY, REACH A POINT OF THE MAZE WHERE THEY FINALLY GAIN THE "ABILITY" TO FLOAT OVER THE ICE.
- IT IS INCREDIBLY SIMPLE. IT IS INCREDIBLE FUN. WHY? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHILE THE PLAYER IS FUCKING AROUND PLAYING "ICE SLIDES" THEY WILL BE RUNNING INTO ALL OF THE MYRIAD, AND ALREADY ESTABLISHED BY THAT POINT, "OBSTACLES" SUCH AS: FIXED ENEMY ENCOUNTERS AT THE END OF A SLIDE (OBVIOUSLY THE TRICK LIES IN NOT BEING A DICK ABOUT SUCH THINGS: A PLAYER SHOULD NEVER FIND THE AFOREMENTIONED ICE SLIDING TEDIOUS!!!!!); A SURPRISE REWARD FOR BLINDLY SLIDING LIKE A MORON AND VOILA ENDING UP IN SOME "SECRET" AREA WITH _INSERT WHATEVER RELEVANT REWARDS_; etc.
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When the player finally attains ICE FLOATING SKILLZ they should feel rewarded. And that should also mean that the ice "sliding" is only the 1st "LAYER" of the dungeon!!!
After attaining the ability of the floating over the ice, in the aforementioned Elminage ice cave dungeon, the player enters the 2nd layer of the dungeon: now they are free to explore the last 2 floors at their "leasure" and in the particular case of this game I am talking about it entails an optional choice for the player to engage the dungeon's "master NPC" in a dragon-fighting tournament which culminates in the victorious player being rewarded with a l33t Hammer weapon.
See? Fun!
Things such as floor chutes, spinners, teleports and the like are simply LOGICAL AND NATURAL EXTRAPOLATIONS/EXTENSIONS OF THE VERY SIMPLE DUNGEON DESIGN PHILOSOPHY OF THE "ICE SLIDES". I HOPE THIS DOESN'T REQUIRE FURTHER EXPLANATION?
After attaining the ability of the floating over the ice, in the aforementioned Elminage ice cave dungeon, the player enters the 2nd layer of the dungeon: now they are free to explore the last 2 floors at their "leasure" and in the particular case of this game I am talking about it entails an optional choice for the player to engage the dungeon's "master NPC" in a dragon-fighting tournament which culminates in the victorious player being rewarded with a l33t Hammer weapon.
See? Fun!
Things such as floor chutes, spinners, teleports and the like are simply LOGICAL AND NATURAL EXTRAPOLATIONS/EXTENSIONS OF THE VERY SIMPLE DUNGEON DESIGN PHILOSOPHY OF THE "ICE SLIDES". I HOPE THIS DOESN'T REQUIRE FURTHER EXPLANATION?
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For now I will refrain from offering further nuggets of why you should this instead of that until megidolaon responds.
Stay kult, fuck Bradley-isms, and when in doubt!!!! Just go play Elminage: Gothic, or even better!, go play Wizardry 1-5 again either in their original releases/formats or the SNES remakes or the PS1 remakes or the Windows PC remakes for inspiration.
Oh! I almost forgot: for the LOVE OF GOD DO NOT MAKE RESTING "FREE". Adventuring inside a dungeon should be immersive, and the best way to stimulate the suspension of disbelief in a player is to allow them the opportunity to feel endangered.
The mere possibility that their possible mis-use of resources and/or simply the fuckery they just found themselves in MIGHT POSSIBILITY SPELL THEIR DOOM AND THUS THEY might actually not make it back to safety (!!!) is paramount for achieving the beginnings of proper suspension of disbelief.
Stay kult, fuck Bradley-isms, and when in doubt!!!! Just go play Elminage: Gothic, or even better!, go play Wizardry 1-5 again either in their original releases/formats or the SNES remakes or the PS1 remakes or the Windows PC remakes for inspiration.
Oh! I almost forgot: for the LOVE OF GOD DO NOT MAKE RESTING "FREE". Adventuring inside a dungeon should be immersive, and the best way to stimulate the suspension of disbelief in a player is to allow them the opportunity to feel endangered.
The mere possibility that their possible mis-use of resources and/or simply the fuckery they just found themselves in MIGHT POSSIBILITY SPELL THEIR DOOM AND THUS THEY might actually not make it back to safety (!!!) is paramount for achieving the beginnings of proper suspension of disbelief.
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dream expert
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2016
- Messages
- 115
V_K
Arcane
Dear mods, could we pleas make the use of giant fonts a bannable offence?
Viata
Arcane
vortex
Fabulous Optimist
Which engine is this running?
How did you acomplish 2d hand drawn style with 3D models?
How did you acomplish 2d hand drawn style with 3D models?
dream expert
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2016
- Messages
- 115
Those are clearly 2D drawings.
I've been commissioning this gentleman, he's done past work for other games and also made paintings for some tabletop RPG sourcebooks: http://zelldweller.deviantart.com. He's posted a lot of the game's bestiary art on that page including some major bosses, so if you don't want to see spoilers this early, click carefully
megidolaon
Kyoto Cybernetics
Re: Subclassing, definitely wasn't something I was planning. I have, however, been getting carried away with classes in general in my design document, and am going to just scratch out any ones that are too contrived or superfluous. I'm going to *try* to limit it to at most 8-10 classes because this is not going to be a gargantuan sockdolager of a game, despite my pie-in-the-sky brainstormings wanting it to be. I'll definitely give a poke at the Elminage-style skill-specializing as an alternative to that and see how it goes. (I played a little bit of that game earlier this year, and originally planned to continue playing it during my studies, but I've had some trouble running that game under WINE on my laptop despite everyone else on GOG/Steam forum who's tried it says it "Works Fine For Me™", so I probably won't be able to really dig into it until I return home in about a month or so, where I'll have my proper Win7 desktop again)
Regarding Re-classing: the one thing about this detail I'm struggling with is being aware that however re-classing is implemented, has a chance to affect how I consequently should approach game-wide-dungeon design; not necessarily per-floor, but overall in how it all connects -- specifically with regards to my plans for wanting it to be similar to Megami Tensei's style I mentioned earlier, where it often has large single/double-floor dungeons that are connected with one or two mini-"towns" (outposts) as well as connecting to he more important, larger dozen-story-tall tower-dungeons on the other side somewhere. With that approach, re-classing some veteran lv 20-something heroes in a later end-game-area outpost may not be a good idea if they'll then be squishy lv 1 newbies again entrapped within walls which have swarms of gargantuan lv 20 Hell-centipedes that breathe nuclear fire surrounding the outside. I'll have to think this through a bit and play around with some options when I get around to this detail. But beyond that, I agree with your statement that *whichever* approach I go with should be one such that it makes the player seriously consider why they are changing and whether it's worth the risk/time involved to do so.
Re: Bards. So far in my design texts I haven't come up with anything like a full-fledged Bard class. The closest I've thought of is a Scotsman-warrior type class who can use some battlefield instruments (drums, warhorns etc) to boost the morale and performance of his allies when he's situated in the back row, but no enemy-affecting statuses (he'll need to use a claymore for enemies
). But as I said, I'm trying my darnedest to resist that heated temptation to throw in a gorillion different classes, so it's also likely I'll include neither of these.Many of your and other posters' other points do bring some direction and clarity to some things I've been pondering for a long time (admittedly, sometimes pondering in indecisive, endless circles), so thanks for th! Will definitely keep this feedback in mind
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