my dungeon crawler project

[megidolaon]

Hi all,

Long-time on-and-off lurker, first-time-poster here. I've been working on this project that started out almost four years ago as a little hobby to occupy myself with after work which I never originally meant to take anywhere, but one thing led to another and this will be my first real game. I think if I can concentrate and focus I might be able to finally complete production of this project within the next 6-9 months. Work on the engine itself is pretty much 95% complete, with the gameplay-linked things being the main hangnails until those details are sorted out.

The scenario itself is still in the works, and for the next month or so I'm going to be working on designing a proper combat and magic system instead of the placeholder code (anything pictured here such as stats, resistances, etc is mostly cosmetic and *very* subject to change -- especially those Bradleyesque stats seen in the monster shots below ). I will post updates and such here.

"Dungeons of Danger" is just the working title. It's a pretty stupid/generic name and I'll think of something better eventually.

Here are a few screenshots:

Monster encyclopedia:





Stone hallway



NPC interaction mode
This is going to be a big item to tackle. Right now it's ultimately a multiple-choice-only system, which is something that smells a bit funny to me for this genre.





Other menus/screens/UI stuff:

 

[Crooked Bee]

Looking good.

But yeah, Dungeons of Danger is terribly generic.

 

[ThisNameIsFree]

Nice, wizardry inspired?
HP on screenshots is way too low thought.

aweigh

 

[Scroo]

Not bad. Will it have automap? Will you be able to save inside the dungeon? Is it more Wizardry 1-5 inspired or does it take more from Wizardry 6?

 

[megidolaon]

Nice, wizardry inspired?
HP on screenshots is way too low thought.
aweigh

Yessir!

Not bad. Will it have automap? Will you be able to save inside the dungeon? Is it more Wizardry 1-5 inspired or does it take more from Wizardry 6?

I'm on the fence about automap. I want the dungeon itself (or, at least, those specific floors that represent more dangerously-themed areas) to be as much an "enemy" as any monster or bandit you come across, so right now I'm leaning toward no.

As far as influences, I'm aiming to keep magic/combat/etc mostly classic-inspired like Wiz1-5 (and maybe Dark Spire, which along with Strange Journey is what inspired me to make a dungeon crawl in the first place), but I'll also experiment around with some variations on those mechanics and see if they stick or flop.

If you mean dungeon layouts, I'm going to aim for a design style themed around multiple, separate, compact "towers", with other dungeons connecting them in various ways, with occasional and rare redoubts of safe harbor dotting the dungeonscapes here-and-there to rest/buy stuff (original Megami Tensei 1 did it this way). This all isn't final, of course -- I'm pretty much speculating because I'm still at a point where I am focusing about 90% on finishing the code and only about 10% time considering all the actual game-game details. As soon as I finish re-doing the scripting subsystem into something less rigid than it is now, then that's going to wildly change and I'll be free to focus on building all the actual gameplay elements that matter. I'm pretty much doing everything except the art, because I can't draw.

Chance of permadeath and botched resurrections is likely; I see no reason not to include those setbacks. Saving will probably also be done only in those outposts. I didn't pucker in my chair as often playing Wizardry 6 as I did in the earlier games in which I had to often drag a party of ailing idiots back to the city temple from the bowels of the Earth.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Yeah, if you want your dungeon to be challenging, I'd advise against automap too, or alternatively make it limited a la Dark Heart of Uukrul (with automap-free areas) or something you fill out yourself a la Etrian Odyssey.

 

[Viata]

I like what I see, will buy it.
Since you are taking inspirations from Wizardry, is it from Wiz 6~8 or older games like many Wizardry-clones?

 

[Darth Roxor]

I always have nothing but respect for one-man "I've been doing this on and off for 4 years as a hobby and actually am going to finish this soon" projects.

 

[Jaesun]

Is this turn-based combat?

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

Looks pretty good.

Do you want to say anything about tech? Thread tags say lisp. Is it lisp for everything or something or what?

 

[ragnor]

I like your cartoony style. Can't say i'm much of a Wizardry player but i'll definitely check it out. Also Emacs ftw!

 

[Alchemist]

This looks right up my alley. Looking forward to further developments - good luck!

 

[megidolaon]

Is this turn-based combat?

It's definitely not real-time, but what type of turn-based is undecided; I've a text file of enumerated, hovering indecisions I have literally called 'gameplay-decision-options.txt' with the three types I've considered.

When I get around to combat, my plan is to make three forks of the source, one for each of: 1) traditional Wizardry-style (ask-full-group-turn: ask everyone first then run them in batch), 2) Shin Megami Tensei style (group-with-grouo-member-turn: still split into groups but each action is executed as-each-individual-hero-is-asked), or 3) full initiative-rolling 100%-turn-based where it's decided semi-randomly with a speed stat improving chances, ie hero-hero-monster-hero-monster-monster-hero-monster-etc.

And then I'll tinker and experiment with those for about week or two, and then stick with the one I find most engaging.

Looks pretty good.

Do you want to say anything about tech? Thread tags say lisp. Is it lisp for everything or something or what?

The entire game is written from scratch in Common Lisp, using Steel Bank Common Lisp as the implementation, and SDL 1.2+OpenGL for graphics so porting is pretty easy between my machines. Currently only have access to my Lenovo T500 Linux laptop for the time being, which is why the screenshots are 1280x720 instead of 1920x1080.

Thanks for the feedback and questions everyone! Back to work

 

[Rhuantavan]

Good luck on your project man, keep it up!

 

[Siveon]

As far as influences, I'm aiming to keep magic/combat/etc mostly classic-inspired like Wiz1-5 (and maybe Dark Spire, which along with Strange Journey is what inspired me to make a dungeon crawl in the first place), but I'll also experiment around with some variations on those mechanics and see if they stick or flop.

Since you are taking inspirations from Wizardry, is it from Wiz 6~8 or older games like many Wizardry-clones?

Is this turn-based combat?

Looks great, can't wait to see more. Where did you get the art from?

 

[Lord Azlan]

Speaking as a non-expert but lover of dungeon crawlers, your design choices and font choices are simply magnificent. Lovely.

Some of us are old geezers with failing eyesight and I appreciate that.

Really liking the text you have presented in the pictures you posted. I always think crawlers need a bit of text and interaction somewhere in the game. Something the Grimrocks missed.

As for the automap I reckon you need to include something, even if they are scrolls or a skill. Lots of competition nowadays for the crawlers and a lot of them have maps.

Look forward to your updates. Best of luck.

 

[megidolaon]

Looks great, can't wait to see more. Where did you get the art from?

I've been commissioning this gentleman, he's done past work for other games and also made paintings for some tabletop RPG sourcebooks: http://zelldweller.deviantart.com. He's posted a lot of the game's bestiary art on that page including some major bosses, so if you don't want to see spoilers this early, click carefully . He did the 3D models for the dungeon tilesets, too.

As for the automap I reckon you need to include something, even if they are scrolls or a skill. Lots of competition nowadays for the crawlers and a lot of them have maps.

Look forward to your updates. Best of luck.

Thanks, I'll def try to update more in the following weeks; I'm ramping up once again from bit of coding downtime I've been having due to the last few months of studying/traveling.

I did really want to do this without an automap feature and make the player pencil stuff on graph paper. But, I'd be lying if I said I never played a crawler without using its automap feature when it is available.

I did play most of Wizardry 6 without drawing anything on paper, except for those annoying dwarf mines and I think also the pyramid if I remember right. Mainly because the dungeon layouts weren't so abstract as they were in the previous games; the layouts in 6 usually resembled the types of locations they were meant to be, rather than fucked up, noodley mazes. Lots of flavor text in otherwise seemingly insignificant locations also helped with navigation. If I go with this kind of design philosophy in the dungeons -- instead of noodley mazes -- would the lack of an automap be such a bad thing?

 

[Naraya]

Looks promising, good luck! May I suggest an UI font change though? Monospaced fonts are terrible for this purpose...

 

[Lord Azlan]

I did really want to do this without an automap feature and make the player pencil stuff on graph paper. But, I'd be lying if I said I never played a crawler without using its automap feature when it is available.

I did play most of Wizardry 6 without drawing anything on paper, except for those annoying dwarf mines and I think also the pyramid if I remember right. Mainly because the dungeon layouts weren't so abstract as they were in the previous games; the layouts in 6 usually resembled the types of locations they were meant to be, rather than fucked up, noodley mazes. Lots of flavor text in otherwise seemingly insignificant locations also helped with navigation. If I go with this kind of design philosophy in the dungeons -- instead of noodley mazes -- would the lack of an automap be such a bad thing?

No bad thing. Just to note some of the games I have played recently such as Avadon and Swords & Sorcery have them and the fact unlike back in my student days where I used to map Bards Tale 1, my current PC table space includes lots of junk left there by my son. Usually lotions and body stinking things.

I tried a few times to map things out as I used to enjoy the activity but don't have the space. How lame can you get with old age.

Whatever is decided I will keep an eye on your updates. Probably won't be a game breaker for the majority of people just might influence how long they play it for. With online community, probably a few maps will become available very soon after launch!

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

Visually distinct and recognizable locations do sound good. Instead of abstract messes of early Wizardries and Elminages(?) with their untextured (or single texture per level) walls. No automap, but no need for manual mapping either (or maybe just occasional) seems like a worthy design goal.

Thief-style maps, where you get the general layout of the area, but not the details, could be interesting.

 

[V_K]

Thanks, I'll def try to update more in the following weeks; I'm ramping up once again from bit of coding downtime I've been having due to the last few months of studying/traveling.

I did really want to do this without an automap feature and make the player pencil stuff on graph paper. But, I'd be lying if I said I never played a crawler without using its automap feature when it is available.

I did play most of Wizardry 6 without drawing anything on paper, except for those annoying dwarf mines and I think also the pyramid if I remember right. Mainly because the dungeon layouts weren't so abstract as they were in the previous games; the layouts in 6 usually resembled the types of locations they were meant to be, rather than fucked up, noodley mazes. Lots of flavor text in otherwise seemingly insignificant locations also helped with navigation. If I go with this kind of design philosophy in the dungeons -- instead of noodley mazes -- would the lack of an automap be such a bad thing?

But if the game isn't going to have navigational challenges (spinners, unmarked teleporters etc) then what's the point of not having automap?
Personally, I believe you'll be shooting yourself in the leg marketing-wise if you go full hardcore no-automap route. Especially if the dungeon will have a more complex structure than just a collection of levels stacked upon each other. If you want some mapping-related challenge, consider limiting automapping to some rare consumable use (like e.g. gems in early Ultimas). Maybe combine it with Wiz7 mapping skill or something.
By the way, Chaos Strikes Back had automapping spell, but it didn't make its dungeon any less scary and imposing.

 

[Dorateen]

Stylish and whimsical. Seems like you captured the Wizardry aesthetic nicely. Well done.

 

[kain611]

Willing to bet this will be released long before Grimoire

 

[megidolaon]

Looks promising, good luck! May I suggest an UI font change though? Monospaced fonts are terrible for this purpose...

I've struggled quite a lot with implementing proportional fonts a while back (properly, without looking ugly or goofy) and eventually scrapped it because it was taking a ridiculous amount of time away from other, more meatier to-do items.

With proportional fonts, there are many more little details to consider in the rendering, and typefacing in general is kind of an entire art/science world unto itself. Deciding on a mono font to use was easier since it doesn't require manually adjusting 'n' number of variables for all of (2*26 + (number of symbols)) characters first, including but not limited to placing them all in a texture and entering the UV coordinates for all 255(+) into a list-of-lists. With monospaced I could just swap between this-one, that-one, etc. until I found a font that looked okay across all menus.

I'll consider taking another crack at proportional fonts in the future after completing more gameplay-pertinent features, but I can't promise it'll go any more smoothly. Hopefully, there might be Lisp bindings for some OpenGL-based font rendering library whose existence I'm not aware of. SDL only seems to be able to render text in non-OpenGL contexts, as far as I was able to tell.

Proportional fonts aside, there's also another challenge of Japanese support, which I've spent some time preparing considering the market for this genre. Tweaked the font rendering code a while back so that hiragana and katakana "just work", and they share the same main 255-character font texture as the Latin fonts seen in the screenshots. But kanji support on top of that is going to be a real cactus in the ass if I implement it.

But if the game isn't going to have navigational challenges (spinners, unmarked teleporters etc) then what's the point of not having automap?
Personally, I believe you'll be shooting yourself in the leg marketing-wise if you go full hardcore no-automap route. Especially if the dungeon will have a more complex structure than just a collection of levels stacked upon each other. If you want some mapping-related challenge, consider limiting automapping to some rare consumable use (like e.g. gems in early Ultimas). Maybe combine it with Wiz7 mapping skill or something.
By the way, Chaos Strikes Back had automapping spell, but it didn't make its dungeon any less scary and imposing.

Good points. OK, I will add an automap (there's already one in Edit Mode so not much work left to do to implement it as a gameplay feature)... but I still think it should be perhaps at some reasonable tradeoff of convenience or safety for the heroes. Maybe something like an infinite portal-bag of breadcrumbs you can buy; player can open and close it to toggle automap, BUT with a slightly increased chance your party gets attacked by hungry monsters while automatically dropping them onto new squares. I don't know, it may be something like that :D

And would a monster (much later on in probably the final few dungeons) who has a psionic attack which erases heroes' memories so they've only foggy recollections of many previously mapped areas be too cruel? Just throwing the idea out there

Willing to bet this will be released long before Grimoire

If Grimoire comes out first, I'm going to lose so much productivity playing it instead of working. Loved the superdemo, even though it kicked my not-very-skilled ass pretty early on.

 

[Mustawd]

Automap a la Eliminage Gothic would be cool. or maybe a difficulty option the excludes automap?

Plz gib me automap in some form.