[LP CYOA] Spiral

[Azira]

Oh yes, I'm chuffed.

 

[Baltika9]

Bandwagon.

 

[Kipeci]

Voting B to keep this guy in the driver's seat, I like where this is going.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

B -

I do think we can still pull out of this with A, but Nevill has started the bandwagon and it cannot be stopped.

 

[Nevill]

I didn't start anything, dude, you are free to make whatever argument you wish.

The fact is, one guy is dead whichever way you go, and we are the one who killed him. If a patient is slowly dying of cancer and you stab him (and twist the knife for good measure), you are still a murderer. What exactly are we supposed to pull out of, and for what reasons?

The kid gloves are off. RAMMING SPEED is the only option that makes sense continues the lulzfest. We may as well stop by the lobby and snack on Murano if nobody did yet.

 

[treave]

We may as well stop by the lobby and snack on Murano if nobody did yet.

Well, he'll probably head straight for the basement first to get those patient files before getting round to finishing off Murano.

 

[Nevill]

And then, I assume, to the director's office. He still needs to know how the Nurse died, and I doubt he will find this information anywhere else.

I was merely remarking on that we are no longer bound by self-imposed restrictions of maintaining the Masquerade.

 

[treave]

Oh, he wouldn't, probably not without doing some other stuff first.

Going straight to the director's office back then would have killed you or ended the night.

 

[Nevill]

That's... interesting. I assumed that the Nurse is the source of power of this stage, and Seiji was shown able to contain/avoid her. The group would have been wiped out, but I thought he could always escape. The office must have something truly hardcore in there.

Wonder what that 'end of the night' stuff is. It is obviously a penalty, seeing how it is always paired with death, but I thought of it as of 'losing consciousness' and letting the other guy lead uncontested, seeing how he is nigh indestructible. Which then brings up the question why it would be considered a 'bad ending'.

Maybe, just maybe, teaming up with him is not such a bright idea? I guess we'll see.

 

[treave]

Wonder what that 'end of the night' stuff is. It is obviously a penalty, seeing how it is always paired with death, but I thought of it as of 'losing consciousness' and letting the other guy lead uncontested, seeing how he is nigh indestructible. Which then brings up the question why it would be considered a 'bad ending'.

Spoilers, but it's of the sort that is minor and not liable to influence voting: this night is the first time that he has appeared ever since you woke up in Ikei.

 

[Nevill]

That's some beautiful .

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I didn't start anything, dude, you are free to make whatever argument you wish.

The fact is, one guy is dead whichever way you go, and we are the one who killed him. If a patient is slowly dying of cancer and you stab him (and twist the knife for good measure)

we don't actually know he's beyond the point of no return. If we were in control we could ask Ei. You are probably right though, but I am just pointing out that while it was my vote to slide down the slippery slope, it was your vote not to grab anything on the way down and dive toward the blackness headfirst.

Basically, it's all your fault and I absolve myself of all blame for what is about to happen.

 

[Tigranes]

You morons. "Let's give control to the crazy Dio guy just for kicks!"

That's basically the last 20 updates out the window, all the disadvantages we swallowed to try and keep the group together, become its leader, persuade Uehara we're a decent lot, and so on. We might as well have just started off by violating Uehara and then consuming everybody's souls.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

You morons. "Let's give control to the crazy Dio guy just for kicks!"

That's basically the last 20 updates out the window, all the disadvantages we swallowed to try and keep the group together, become its leader, persuade Uehara we're a decent lot, and so on. We might as well have just started off by violating Uehara and then consuming everybody's souls.

Wait, was that an option?

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Yes and I totally argued for it for like 10 pages.

 

[Grimgravy]

Contrary A.

It's not complete YOLO if we don't commit to a stupid path then stupidly change our mind half way through!

 

[Nevill]

we don't actually know he's beyond the point of no return. If we were in control we could ask Ei.

We 'know' that pretty well. I believe this is our combined knowledge speaking:

You notice the darkness that has begun worming forth from the corner of her right eye. It is something that both influences and can be influenced by the mental state of the person trapped in its grip, resulting in a positive feedback loop of emotional instability. You turn to look at the maid, who is hiding behind a table, shivering. Her, and Shiba: of the ones remaining in this room, it is they and Kozaka who are irreversibly doomed, marked by an inescapable fate.

We were able to determine it by glance. If it's the 'neighbour' pulling tricks on us, why did he choose them, but not the others?

Ei, for her part, has already confirmed that the affliction the mark signifies is fatal.

I put quotation marks around 'know' because knowledge is subjective. Even Seiji does not know everything there is to know about this place. What I mean to say is, if a way to save them ever existed, it was beyond the scope of both Seiji's and the grimoire's abilities.

Basically, it's all your fault and I absolve myself of all blame for what is about to happen.

If you want an argument for the opposite, you can always cite the classics. It is not the first time the Codex fell flat on their asses, and not the first time it got back up.

An excerpt from EPIC discussions of the past

[On matters of DEVOUR SOUL]

Thing is, if this hunger thing is not a big problem, we may look into creating more of these unbound. And if this will be the course of Ean's self destruction, and Earth's final doom, at least it'll be entertaining to watch.

I don't want to watch a trainwreck, I want to guide a character to success. We had a vision over the first three chapters of guiding a powerful, principled immortal and we generally made decent choices. There was a lot of really good discussion during the Tjaru segment of the story.

And now over the course of two (!) updates, you've done a complete 180 and you've decided you'd rather watch a glorious disaster.

This is Codex. You expected something else?

Yes, I expected people to act more like the character we shaped from Chapters 1 through 3. We made some pretty good decisions in that time. The 300 year coma we had notwithstanding (which, to be fair, nobody saw coming), we made some good choices over the course of that time.

Shrugging your shoulders and going "LOL CODEX GONNA CODEX" doesn't work for me. It's no excuse to turn an awesome LP into a lulzfest just because you are disappointed with some of the decisions you've made.

I think what's going on is that people are unhappy with the way things turned out, so in order to protect themselves from feeling bad about it, they just want to drag Ean as far down as possible. It's sort of like when a guy assumes that the pretty girl sitting next to him is probably a bitch because it'll protect his ego in case she isn't interested in him.

So Codex, please don't be mean to the pretty girl because you're afraid that she won't like you. It's OK if she doesn't, I'm sure you'll find some sweet girl with a nice big cock who will love you for who you are.

I don't think there is more to add to that.

However, while my decision is partly influenced by my wish to see the world burn after decimating everything I have worked for so far, I have a few other reasons for that, too.

First, here is my understanding of the character. Shinoseki Adachi is, or at least strives to be, a good guy. He is always helpful, often considerate of others, and sometimes plain altruistic. He tried to protect people to the best of his abilities. He fought ghosts to protect Mitsuki, he dived after Shiba, he distracted the Nurse, he tussled with Usui, he gave up his arm to save Mori, and he downright sacrificed himself to let Maeda live.

All of this was, ultimately, for nothing. Each and every one of them died in the end, again and again. All was futile.

He wished them the best, but more often then not he was met with hostility, suspicion or derision. People considered him shady and creepy, wanted to tie him up or cut his arm off for something that was beyond his control, and tried to murder or imprison him. You could see the 'Dex resentment building up as updates went by, so I don't think it would be surprising if our character felt the same. It would only be natural if a certain thought started growing at the back of his mind - if he is going to be treated like a villain anyway, what does he play the hero for? Does it even make a difference?

In the end, the misstep he made was a product of doubt and lack of self-worth. If he was a better leader, he could have stopped the fight. If he was a better spokesman, he could have soothed their anger. But he didn't think he was either, he felt like there was nothing he could do, and so he called upon another to solve his problem. And I guess it got solved, and not in a way that would improve the way he feels about himself.

So we have full bouquet - a sense of helplessness, self-doubt, growing resentment towards others and I suppose we can add a good dose of self-loathing now. The exact same problems that Kozaka had which threw him into a 'positive feedback loop' of despair and negative emotions that is nearly impossible to escape, and the actions of another do everything to reinforce it. If I were Adachi, I would not know what to do to unmake the harm he did. What would he say to others? Would that even matter? How would they ever forgive him, they who didn't trust him even when he was trying to do right by them?

He feels like a bridge was burned and there is no way back. There is a certain liberation that comes with the realization. The regrets come when the fog clears and one can see the ruins of their aspirations clearly.

He would not want to harm them (so that's where 20 updates worth of forming a person would go to), he might even still try to save them, but he probably gave up on the idea of being accepted by them.

Interestingly enough, if they ever realize that there is still Shinoseki Adachi somewhere in there, and that he is different from Shinohara Seiji, they might attempt to snap him out of this mindset, and get him to cooperate again, but that would require insight and a capability for forgiveness that few people have, so I would not count on it much.


Second, let's go back a bit and remember the very first choice of the fifth chapter.

You probably cannot save everyone. You will have to choose who you would like to be saved, and do so carefully. You cannot afford to waste time on people who cannot be rescued.

This is the attitude we came here with. If a person can't or does not want to be saved, let them rot. They are not worth the effort.

Note that this comes from someone who has stated time and time again - if we think we could save them, we should always make the attempt. That was what I argued with you about Mori in the 4th chapter, that is what I argued with you about Uehara. It is exactly because I do not think we have a right to decide who gets to live and who doesn't. Hell, one of the argument against becoming Jesus was 'no way I would save anyone like Taketatsu' - with no consideration given to the possibility that, perhaps, if we could guarantee his life, he wouldn't defect to the Dark Side in the first place.

But we chose to play God with people's lives. And I guess this comes with the territory. Both our knowledge and Ei tell us that these three people can't be saved. What are we going to do about it? Lug them around with us until they turn? We have already written Murano off as dead, it's not like this is something unprecedented. We are taking it just a little step farther.

Couple this thought with the whirlpool of emotions above and you might see why our character would not resist his fall too much.

That's how I think he thinks and feels. I am pretty sure if his head was actually a repository of the Codexian thoughts, the most prominent one I would find there is 'r00fles'.

We might as well have just started off by violating Uehara and then consuming everybody's souls.

I might go for it right now, though I would probably regret it later.

 

[GreyViper]

Well not quite how I thought it would turn out, but Bandwagon it is.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Nevill, you are probably spot on about it being both our opinions. Interesting. So, this malice is something that has infected each of them and yet, malice seems to also be the currency of power in this world as well. It's what the ghosts are made of and it infects everyone it touches. Also, we're finnally seeing how the old man - and Seji - manipulated Takaetsu. Play on his fears and hatreds, bring forth the malice and make him aware it is going to kill him. Also, Takaetsu said that the old man helped him somehow - maybe by consuming some of the excess malice? I wonder, was the malice there to begin with? How much of it is a lethal dose? Why does it not effect us or Uehara the same as the others? Hmm. Maybe we'll learn more after Seji butchers and dissects everyone... We really should have consumed Murano. Maybe then Ei would uncover an ability that could help. He was so likable though.

 

[Nevill]

I don't think it has anything to do with malice consumption.

I think it has to do with 'fate'. Some of these people are more dead than others, they just do not know it yet. They probably were that way when they arrived. Remember that all four of them weren't there on our first night? We have only seen Shiba on camera. That might not be a coincidence.

The fourth night and Maeda's ending showed us that there was some major disaster at the hospital that has resulted in dozens, if not hundreds, of deaths. It would not surprise me if some of ours would get affected.

We have seen some of the dead walking these corridors with their conscience intact, like Hidetaka. I believe if we told him about his death, we would see his Darkening, too.

There is an alternative take on this. The CYOA seems to be heavily inspired by Corpse Party to the point where it borrows its terminology, so it might be that the meanings of the words also coincide:

Spoiler

The Darkening (黒化 Kokuka?) is a terminology used in the Corpse Party series. It is what happens when one loses all hope and succumbs to their darker emotions, hatred, grief, sadness, envy, etc. It causes you to act on your emotions, sometimes the victim becomes completely apathetic and often times may lead to a victim unconsciously killing others. In other cases, a victim's obsession towards something may also cause them to experience the Darkening.

In that case it is just that the personalities of others are too strong to succumb to its effects. It certainly would be the case with Sakimura, Uehara and Amanozaki, while Sawada may simply be too stupid and cheerful to truly comprehend his predicament.

The thought worries me a little, as it implies that Maeda would be among the marked since the beginning. But that may not be of consequence if she is dead.

However, it is worth noting that the Darkening in Corpse Party could be fought off and some people who experienced it were able to escape back to the world of the living. That makes me a bit sceptical about sealing people's fates based on what Seiji and Ei know.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

If it is just a matter of personality strength, then the real issue is the feedback loop in their mental states. Change their mental states and we stop the loop. Doing something like the reverse of what Seji did should work. If that is the case, then they aren't really doomed, just too weak to pull themselves out of the loop on their own. Sociopaths like Ei and Seiji might view this as being beyond saving as they don't possess the empathy within themselves necessary to even being to know how to help the weak.

May be too late for that though. At least for one of them.

 

[treave]

However, it is worth noting that the Darkening in Corpse Party could be fought off and some people who experienced it were able to escapeback to the world of the living. That makes me a bit sceptical about sealing people's fates based on what Seiji and Ei know.

The term was also only used in a title as a homage, not the update, so I'd also be a bit sceptical about using that particular description to predict whether or not it can be fought off, and how.

 

[Nevill]

The term was also only used in a title as a homage, not the update, so I'd also be a bit sceptical about using that particular description to predict whether or not it can be fought off, and how.

“Oh. Oh, of course. Kukukuku… you did the right thing, passing this on to me,” she cackles. “Come, I have a relic that will prevent the mark on your head from darkening.” Amanozaki beckons to Murano, rummaging through her bag.

I was pretty careful not to state that the words mean exactly the same thing in both cases.

This also comes from someone who would drag the affected with him until they started clawing and biting due to 'always make an attempt' creed. I am naturally predisposed not to believe in fate and inevitability.

I wonder, though, if the name of CYOA isn't related to that 'positive feedback loop' where pretty much any action in regards to the hospital comes back to haunt you. The malice that permeats the place drives people to do vile things, the victims come back for their persecutors and new victims alike, and any attempt to break a person out of this cycle is bound to produce even more bodies. A spiral of hatred and misery, so to speak.

 

[treave]

The term was also only used in a title as a homage, not the update, so I'd also be a bit sceptical about using that particular description to predict whether or not it can be fought off, and how.

“Oh. Oh, of course. Kukukuku… you did the right thing, passing this on to me,” she cackles. “Come, I have a relic that will prevent the mark on your head from darkening.” Amanozaki beckons to Murano, rummaging through her bag.

I was pretty careful not to state that the words mean exactly the same thing in both cases.

It's been shown that Amanozaki doesn't actually know what she's talking about. She's also a closet gamer.

I wonder, though, if the name of CYOA isn't related to that 'positive feedback loop' where pretty much any action in regards to the hospital comes back to haunt you. The malice that permeats the place drives people to do vile things, the victims come back for their persecutors and new victims alike, and any attempt to break a person out of this cycle is bound to produce even more bodies. A spiral of hatred and misery, so to speak.

Well... the final boss is a snail.

 

[Nevill]

It's been shown that Amanozaki doesn't actually know what she's talking about.

Eh, it would be funnier if one of them was a fan of videogames or horror movies and tried to second-guess this stuff. But those never feature in this kinds of works. Maybe because they know better than to visit haunted hospitals.

Edit: Nevermind.

Well... the final boss is a snail.

No compaints there

A fine final boss material, indeed.