System Shock List of immersive sims.

[DalekFlay]

Speaking about the first Bioshock, I remember that the systemic elements are basically only estetic. They are there only because there were also in the "spiritual predecessor", but they didn't contribute meaningfullly to the gameplay. Basically Bioshock is a shooter where your only way to complete the game is killing everything that moves. The only systemic mechanics that I remember is the possibility to kill the enemies by shooting directly in the face or by exploiting water puddles by electricity. Are there any other significant elements that I don't remember?

I recently replayed Bioshock and it was even more of a pure shooter than I remembered. You move fast, enemies move fast, and everything is focused on combat. I guess you could in theory use the hypnotize and security buddy plasmids to avoid some combat but nowhere near on an "immersive sim" level of getting through without fighting. It's basically Doom with some light immersive sim/RPG style elements I guess.

 

[†††]

Look at the description Bad Sector wrote. Compare Deus Ex to something like Skyrim. Both first person, both atmospheric, both have enemies and skills, but Deus Ex is a game that encourages players to try multiple approaches to any given problem, to find multiple paths to every objective, to even think laterally and use the systems to their advantage (like building staircases out of boxes).

Are you implying that Skyrim doesn't offer emergent gameplay and innovative strategies?? can you sneak your way out in Deus Ex by covering NPCs' line of sight with pots and buckets? no? I thought so.

 

[Bony Hands]

If Space Station 13 can't be considered a Immersive Sim due to how hard it is to define, it can be considered something close.

• The game is heavy with systems. For example, the station needs power to run, which means setting up a engine to produce enough power for all the station's needs so it can travel through the wires. Which means that ripping up the wires means the rooms cut off will lose power until it is fixed.
• Being a multiplayer round based game, there's no progression as there would be in a single player game, but goals are usually based on what is happening at the moment. Normally, a Doctors goal would be to heal sick and wounded crewmates, but if the station goes to hell, then now they have to figure out how to best survive.
  
• You can use the station and other players to achieve your goal. If you want to get into a room you can smash open a window, or hack open the door, or ask someone to let you in.
  
• There's no leveling up or skill points, you just figure out how to play the game and improve as you get more experience.

 

[Excommunicator]

I think it's more meaningful to look at "immersive sim" as a goal rather than as a classification - what is the game trying to do, and has it achieved it in a reasonable way? Is it strongly systems driven, does it present itself with "immersion" as a priority? Are the systems built heavily around level design and "finding your way"?

 

[Butter]

I wasn't kidding when I said Underworld Ascendant. Being good isn't part of the definition of immersive sim.

 

[DalekFlay]

I just like shooting and sneaking and talking to NPCs and breaking into places and improving my ability to do all that. Whatever that genre is, that's what I like.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I just like shooting and sneaking and talking to NPCs and breaking into places and improving my ability to do all that. Whatever that genre is, that's what I like.

Well I don't think that immersive sim is exactly a genre. Is more a way to implement game mechanics or a design phylosophy. You have an immersive sim when the game is created such that all its individual systems can reach out and influence one another. This interconnectivity allows for extremely flexible and open-ended gameplay, thus enhancing the player agency, and hence "immersion".

You can have examples of immersive sims in different genres, such as RPGs or action games. Deus Ex, Breath of the Wild, Dwarf Fortress and The Hobbit (an old text adventure game) are examples of immersive sim in different genres.

However the reason why I am interested in this thread is that I relized that there is a strong correlation between the presence of immersive sim elements and the games that I enjoy the most. I found myself liking and enjoying much more games that are also immersive sim, even though I wasn't aware of this aspect when I played them. In retrospect it also help me to explain why I didn't enjoy and losed interest in many games without completing them, games that apparently I should have liked.

Eventually, a list of immersive sims could help me to find interesting games that I could like, regardless of the genre.

 

[DalekFlay]

One way to develop that thought process is to say that Bioshock has weak immersive sim elements not because of a lack of stats or character design choices... those are weak RPG aspects... but because you can't use telekinesis to move turrets around as weapons, or use spring traps to reach high up places to throw grenades down from.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

most good roguelikes are better immersive sims than a lot of the games listed here

 

[Nifft Batuff]

most good roguelikes are better immersive sims than a lot of the games listed here

Names?

 

[Child of Malkav]

Wait, Monomyth is an imsim? I don't think I can get even more excited if that's the case.

 

[Butter]

Wait, Monomyth is an imsim? I don't think I can get even more excited if that's the case.

It's Ultima Underworld 3.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Wait, Monomyth is an imsim? I don't think I can get even more excited if that's the case.

It's Ultima Underworld 3.

I'm following it but I don't remember if someone said that it was an imsim as well.

 

[forumvisitor#451]

Based on definition of BadSector I would say that Operation Flashpoint/Arma games, especially modded, should count as well. But given they are sandbox, it is relative to how exactly you play them and still they fit the definition differently than most of the games mentioned.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

most good roguelikes are better immersive sims than a lot of the games listed here

Names?

Not the original guy, but Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, maybe? Its a zombie survival roguelike. I'm not sure how deep it goes, but there's a very in-depth wound system. You can "pulp" a zombie and later, when you butcher the corpse, less ingredients come out as a result. You can break anything down into its base components and rebuild most items back into whatever it was. But crafts are just static items that are in-progress, if a fire goes out halfway in cooking a loaf of bread, its not going to be any worse for the wear. So, like I said, I'm not sure if its a real immersion sim or just a very good simulation of one.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

most good roguelikes are better immersive sims than a lot of the games listed here

Names?

Not the original guy, but Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, maybe? Its a zombie survival roguelike. I'm not sure how deep it goes, but there's a very in-depth wound system. You can "pulp" a zombie and later, when you butcher the corpse, less ingredients come out as a result. You can break anything down into its base components and rebuild most items back into whatever it was. But crafts are just static items that are in-progress, if a fire goes out halfway in cooking a loaf of bread, its not going to be any worse for the wear. So, like I said, I'm not sure if its a real immersion sim or just a very good simulation of one.

I guess many sandbox games have a lot of simulation elements and hence they could be also good candidates for immersive sim. However I think that in order to be an immersive sims there should be some ulterior conditions (IMO):
1 - It is not so much important the number or variety of the simulations elements, but rather the extent of the interactions among them and if these interactions are meaningful (for example, it is not enough to have a crafting mechanics with thousand of recipes, because these are "static" interactions between ingredients that happen only in your inventory).
2 - There should be an avatar or some MC controlled by the player that interacts directly with these elements (i.e. he/she is a part of the simulation). This is the "immersive" part. This means that games like Sim City are not immersive sims, even if in the game there are a lot of interacting elements and emergent behaviors.

 

[Spukrian]

Ok, lets write some about a few of the games in the list.

Thief, Thief 2 and Thief Deadly Shadows:
The games has a combat system, a stealth system and a few other systems. Of note is the physics which is very elaborate, but I wish there were more items to pickup/interact with. The game allows you to stack crates to make staircases, this in combination with mantling and rope arrows (climbing gloves in Deadly Shadows) allows the player to even reach places that developers didn't intend for you to find. In many missions in Thief & Thief 2 you can get up on the roof of a building and many times your footsteps will be silent (the developers didn't think you'd get there so they didn't put any noise on that surface). On the harder difficulties you can't kill anyone, but if you cause infighting between e.g. zombies and hammerites, then it doesn't count. Sometimes you trick enemies to suicide (drowning or falling from a height) but this might count as a kill, can't remember. There are always multiple paths through a level. The game essentially presents you with situations and gives you a toolbox to deal with them as you see fit.

System Shock 1:
The game has systems for combat, hacking and I guess maybe there is a basic stealth system as well. Enemies have different weaknesses, so it's helpful but not necessary to use different weapons against them. There's a physics system which mostly comes into play when using grenades. There's also the gun that shoots rubber bullets that you can shoot mines without triggering them, which is very useful at least one in the game (I guess I have to replay the game and try to find more uses for it). There are alternate paths through the levels and most of the levels of the game are open from the beginng.

System Shock 2:
The game has combat, stealth and simple RPG mechanics. The choices in how you approach any situation in this game are many, the toolbox is very big. The stealth system is very basic, focusing on sound and unlike combat you cannot increase your sneaking capabilities. There is a physics system but I feel it's underused (unless I've missed something?). That said, you are able crush robots by lowering a lift onto them, which is very satisfying (but requires excellent timing). If you're skilled, you can get enemies to hurt eachother, but they won't infight AFAIK.

Deus Ex:
The game has combat, stealth and simple RPG mechanics. There is also a dialogue system so you can talk your way into solving situations at times. The physics system is extensive and staircase building is more fun than ever. There's no mantling though, what a shame. The game is incredibly reactive, at least in the beginning it feels like every choice you make has a consequence. A problem here is that you easily could get all the good augmentations and just forget about the terrible ones, meaning that most builds end up looking exactly the same. But I guess different builds aren't the focus of the game.

Deus Ex Invisible War:
The game has combat, stealth and some barebones RPG mechanics. DEIW gets a lot of criticisms and much of it is valid, but I still feel I need to defend at least the decision to limit inventory and augmentation slots: you can't have all the good augmentations and you can't carry around all the weapons you find, you have to choose between several good choices. The physics system is extensive, albeit the physics are quite "wonky" at times (ragdolls anyone?). That said, just like in the Thief games you can easily get into places where the developer didn't intend you to be.

That's it for now. I guess next time I'll post something about Prey 2017 and Dishonored, but that will be for another day...

TLDR: I write "system", "situation" and "toolbox" several times.