Incline Let's settle this once and for all: Jagged Alliance 2

[passerby]

Any HoMM "complicated" lol.

If JA2 is not an rpg, then all combat focused games like Icewind Dale, Dungeon Rats, Knights of the Chalice, etc. are not rpgs either.

 

[Sacred82]

If JA2 is not an rpg, than all combat focused games like Icewind Dale, Dungeon Rats, Knights of the Chalice, etc. are not rpgs either.

step away from the can of worms sir

 

[Jason Liang]

Think of it this way-

FIVE CATEGORIES

a) classic rpg
- blobbers, strategic rpgs, open-world rpgs, jrpgs
EXAMPLES:
- Wizardry, Might and Magic, Eye of the Beholder and Dungeon Master are blobbers
- Pool of Radiance, Fallout and Temple of Elemental Evil are strategic rpgs
- Ultima and Darklands are open-world rpgs
- Final Fantasy 1 and Phantasy Star IV are jrpgs

b) rpg lineage
- action rpgs, tactical rpgs, MUD/ MUSH, MMO RPGS, rtwp rpgs. I would say that the main difference between this and classic is the development of the internet to enable online multiplayer gameplay, which lead to adapting real time combat or competitive turn-based combat gameplay.
EXAMPLES:
- Diablo and Path of Exile are action RPGs
- Shadowrun (Genesis) is an action RPG
- Fire Emblem, Shining Force 2, D&D Tactics and Shadowrun Returns are tactical rpgs
- Final Fantasy Tactics is considered a tactical rpg although it has very minimal rpg gameplay
- Everquest, World of Warcraft and Star Wars: The Old Republic are MMO rpgs
- Baldur's Gate 2, NWN and Pillars of Eternity are rtwp rpgs

c) rpg with elements of x genre
- Gameplay is primarily rpg but borrows elements from other genres, for example combat might be FPS. In nearly all cases RPGs with tactical combat are omitted here and considered a part of the previous tactical rpg category. I would say the defining criteria for this category is that game progression is still gated by character and/ or story progression.
EXAMPLES:
- Crystalis is an rpg with action adventure combat
- Bloodlines is an rpg with FPS combat
- Fallout: New Vegas is an rpg with FPS combat
- The Witcher 3 is an rpg with action-adventure combat, although honestly the line between this and Assassin's Creed Origins is miniscule

------- above this line are rpgs, below this line are not true rpgs -----------

d) x genre with elements of rpg
- Gameplay is primarily genre x but borrows elements from rpgs, most often character progression, exploration and/ or NPC interaction in limited amounts
EXAMPLES:
Dragonstrike is a flight simulator with rpg elements
Warcraft 3 is an RTS with rpg elements
Bioshock is a FPS with rpg elements
Dungeon Explorer is an arcade action game with rpg elements
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance is an arcade action game with rpg elements
X-Men Legends is an arcade action game with rpg elements
Dungeons & Dragons: Heroes is an arcade action game with rpg elements
Magic Sword is a Contra side-scroller with rpg elements
Cadash is an action-platformer with rpg elements
Magician is an adventure game with rpg elements
The Immortal is an adventure game with rpg elements
Solstice is a puzzle game with rpg elements
Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest is an action-adventure platformer with rpg elements
Faxanadu is an action adventure platformer game with rpg elements
Assassin's Creed Origins is an action-adventure game with rpg elements
Dungeon Keeper is a strategy game with rpg elements
Plants vs. Zombies is a tower defense strategy game with rpg elements
Shandalar is a strategy card game with rpg elements
Fantasy General is a tactical battle game with rpg elements
Master of Monsters is a tactical battle game with rpg elements
Battle for Wesnoth is a tactical battle game with rpg elements
Invisible Inc. is a squad-based tactics game with rpg elements
Fallout Tactics is a squad-based tactics game with rpg elements
Jagged Alliance 2 is a squad-based tactics game with strategy and adventure elements

--------- hybrids below this line might be rpgs on a case by case basis ---------

e) x/ y hybrid
- Game has distinct gameplay modes
EXAMPLES:
Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link is an action adventure/ rpg hybrid
Shadowrun (SNES) is an adventure/ action rpg hybrid
HoMM 2, 3 and 4 are rpg/ strategy/ tactical game hybrids
D&D: Shadows over Mystara is an rpg/ arcade hybrid
Sid Meier's Pirates is an arcade/ strategy/ squad-based tactics/ adventure game hybrid
Star Control 2 is an arcade/ strategy/ adventure game hybrid
Rance VI is a blobber/ Eroge Visual Novel hybrid

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn-based_tactics

Genre blurring
Some role-playing video games, such as The Temple of Elemental Evil and the Gold Box games of the late '80s and early '90s, also feature tactical turn-based combat. Some turn-based tactics titles, such as Jagged Alliance 2 and the X-COM series, feature a real-time strategic layer in addition to tactical turn-based combat.

 

[Sacred82]

Think of it this way-

nop

 

[PanteraNera]

Quillon

Ручной Противотанковый Гранатомёт – Ruchnoy Protivotankoviy Granatomyot – Hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher - RPG
(the picture from a book Cael posted)

 

[Jason Liang]

Jagged Alliance 2 lacks characteristic rpg systems such as a character class system and and magic system. While it's true that an rpg does not necessarily require either character classes or magic, the lack of these systems distance it from the rpg genre. While the game has (limited) character progression and (extremely basic) story progression, neither are primary to game progression which firmly place it in the squad-based tactics/ turn-based tactics genre instead of the tactical rpg genre. Another non-rpg aspect is that the scope of the game is limited to one map, Arulco, and the goal of gameplay is to gain control of Arulco through lengthy tactical battles rather than explore Arulco.

Finally, the length of the battles is also a consideration. When a game's non-boss battles take between 15-30+ minutes, it is clearly a tactical battle game more than a role playing game.

In fact, I would argue that HoMM3 has even more RPG elements than JA2, given that it was character levels, (very primitive) character classes, magic system with magic points, random treasure chests, magical fountains, fantasy bestiary, and more streamlined/ abstract tactical combat.

 

[Sacred82]

Jagged Alliance 2 lacks characteristic rpg systems such as a character class system and and magic system. While it's true that an rpg does not necessarily require either character classes or magic, the lack of these systems distance it from the rpg genre. While the game has (limited) character progression and (extremely basic) story progression, neither are primary to game progression which firmly place it in the squad-based tactics/ turn-based tactics genre instead of the tactical rpg genre. Another non-rpg aspect is that the scope of the game is limited to one map, Arulco, and the goal of gameplay is to gain control of Arulco through lengthy tactical battles rather than explore Arulco.

Finally, the length of the battles is also a consideration. When a game's non-boss battles take between 15-30+ minutes, it is clearly a tactical battle game more than a role playing game.

In fact, I would argue that HoMM3 has even more RPG elements than JA2, given that it was character levels, (very primitive) character classes, magic system with magic points, random treasure chests, magical fountains, fantasy bestiary, and more streamlined/ abstract tactical combat.

you realize that all of your measurements are extremely arbitrary and the list of RPG elements something you pulled out of your ass, mirite

 

[octavius]

- Pool of Radiance, Fallout and Temple of Elemental Evil are strategic rpgs

What makes them strategic? And nor tactical or open world?

 

[Jason Liang]

you realize that all of your measurements are extremely arbitrary and the list of RPG elements something you pulled out of your ass, mirite

The true defining characteristic of rpgs is the presence of advanced rule systems. Magic is an advanced rule system. Character level progression is an advanced rule system. Character class is an advanced rule system. Random encounter and random loot tables are advanced rule systems. Reputation, alignment, and law systems are advanced rule systems. The presence or lack of these systems are what separate rpgs from adventure games. For the most part, does not implement many advanced rule systems, which makes it closer to an adventure game and tactical battle game than an rpg.

I would argue that Banner Saga, HoMM3 and Assassin's Creed Origins are all closer to rpgs/ tactical rpgs than JA2.

 

[Sacred82]

you realize that all of your measurements are extremely arbitrary and the list of RPG elements something you pulled out of your ass, mirite

The true defining characteristic of rpgs is the presence of advanced rule systems.

How is that different from elaborate strategy games

Magic is an advanced rule system.

You can call any tool the player has magic and call it a day.

Random encounter and random loot tables are advanced rule systems.

If I attach some kind of RNG to encounters, it's advanced. Why?

 

[DavidBVal]

At the risk of making this thread useful, I'll ask if anyone knows what's this "gold" version being sold on Steam for 20 bucks. the description says nothing new. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1620/Jagged_Alliance_2_Gold/

Looks like a scam, tbh.

 

[Jason Liang]

- Pool of Radiance, Fallout and Temple of Elemental Evil are strategic rpgs

What makes them strategic? And nor tactical or open world?

Strategic here is a misleading label/ misnomer that these games inherited historically. Since SSI (Strategic Simulations Inc), the root of the genre, originally produced computer strategic wargames, whose primary gameplay consists of two opposing forces battling for control over a battlefield. They are considered strategic in that the combat gameplay is modelled after the strategy game Chess, which emphasizes strategic movement and positioning. They are not strategic in the way we currently use the term, to denote map-porn/ resource collection/ army recruitment area control games like Europa Universalis, 4X games like Civ and SMAC or RTS games like AoE and StarCraft.

Ultima is not included in this category since Ultima has simpler more abstract combat closer to Wizardry or jrpgs like Final Fantasy. Darklands has proto-rtwp combat so is not turn-based tactical battle. Ultima and Darklands also both emphasize out-of-combat adventure gameplay more such as fedex quests, npc social interaction and exploration. Clearly Fallout should be considered an open world rpg as well.

The main use of this terminology is to seperate these games from later-generation tactical rpgs where the non- tactical combat gameplay is strictly minimized.

 

[octavius]

At the risk of making this thread useful, I'll ask if anyone knows what's this "gold" version being sold on Steam for 20 bucks. the description says nothing new. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1620/Jagged_Alliance_2_Gold/

Looks like a scam, tbh.

Looks like Beamdog, all right. But doesn't sound like Beamdog. The shysters would have called it "Enhanced".

 

[Sacred82]

uh

the Gold version's been out since... forever?

https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/jagged-alliance-2-gold/

'includes the expansion Unfinished Business and implements changes from that into the base game'

ask Lilura what changes those are (credit where credit is due)

 

[Jason Liang]

you realize that all of your measurements are extremely arbitrary and the list of RPG elements something you pulled out of your ass, mirite

The true defining characteristic of rpgs is the presence of advanced rule systems.

How is that different from elaborate strategy games

This is a good point, as a Grand Strategy game such as Europa Universalis also has several distinct rule systems. I would say though that the rule systems designed for Grand Strategy games prioritize gaming and simulation and are complicated in different ways than the rule systems in rpgs. For example, the trade system in EU needs to simulate global macroeconomics, which is not a characteristic rpg rule system or concern. Whereas rpgs have advanced character health and status systems that are ignored by Europa Universalis. An RPG's advanced systems are optimized to tell adventure stories.

The point of this is to draw the distinction between rpgs and adventure games, not the difference between rpgs and grand strategy games.

The lack of advanced rule systems is the main reason why Grand Theft Auto V is an action adventure game instead of an rpg, for example.

You can call any tool the player has magic and call it a day.

No because a magic system needs its own special rules seperate from equipment, health, combat, etc...

Random encounter and random loot tables are advanced rule systems.

If I attach some kind of RNG to encounters, it's advanced. Why?

Because you need to code that data (random encounter table, loot table) into its own data file. For example, .2da files in Infinity Engine (Baldur's Gate 2). The heart of Infinity Engine games are stored in the .2da files and the information in .2da files are not graphics, or sounds, or scripts, but rule information.

 

[Sacred82]

This is a good point, as a Grand Strategy game such as Europa Universalis also has several distinct rule systems. I would say though that the rule systems designed for Grand Strategy games prioritize gaming and simulation and are complicated in different ways than the rule systems in rpgs. For example, the trade system in EU needs to simulate global macroeconomics, which is not a characteristic rpg rule system or concern. Whereas rpgs have advanced character health and status systems that are ignored by Europa Universalis. An RPG's advanced systems are optimized to tell adventure stories.

The point of this is to draw the distinction between rpgs and adventure games, not the difference between rpgs and grand strategy games.

You would say it's different because not characteristic of RPG rule systems. Welp, that's about as far as the Kodex ever got to define what is an RPG, I guess.

You can call any tool the player has magic and call it a day.

No because a magic system needs its own special rules seperate from equipment, health, combat, etc...

There is no definition of something that doesn't, to our knowledge, exist in reality.

I can give a character the ability to shoot something from their hands that does damage but drains some meter and uses up something in their inventory and call it magic.

I can give a character an item to wield in their hands that damages enemies and call it magic.

I can wave my hands about IRL and utter some mumbo jumbo and tell people my magic will cause something bad to happen to them at some point in the future.

I can call what happens in my bedroom magic.

Let's define what a dragon is next.

Random encounter and random loot tables are advanced rule systems.

If I attach some kind of RNG to encounters, it's advanced. Why?

Because you need to code that data (random encounter table, lot table) into its own data file. For example, .2da files in Infinity Engine (Baldur's Gate 2). The heart of Infinity Engine games are stored in the .2da files and the information in .2da files are not graphics, or sounds, or scripts, but rule information.

a separate data file makes something advanced. So we can extrapolate the more files required, the more advanced. Still super arbitrary old chap.

 

[cherry blossom]

JA2 has advanced LOS, stealth, environmental feedback and party interaction systems that NONE of the Codex Top 10, 20, 50 RPGs have. It has the most memorable characters and the best party banter bar NONE, and it is all based on stats. It has a rudimentary dialogue and side quest structure that is on par with most of the 80s and even some of the 90s RPGs but what little it has there, feature more stat-based interactions than most of them put together. The entire game is packing more character than all IE games (sans PST) put together.

If you replaced all the firearms with magic, the contemporary setting and art with a medieval / fantasy one, it would be in the Codex Top 3 RPGs of all the punks who don't think it's an RPG.

edit: JA2 also does actually have a type of class+skill system and it is no less of one than many non-D&D RPGs have. To even drag "class systems" into this, thinking JA2 doesn't have one, is utter illiteracy and perhaps a sign that one hasn't really played the game at all.

 

[DakaSha V]

The genre of a game is given by it's primary game play focus. In the case of ja2, the primary gameplay focus revolves around tactical decision making. Hence, ja2 is only an rpg if you define rpgs by a primary focus on tactical decision making.

Personally I don't, and I wouldn't consider final fantasy tactics an rpg either. In fact there is a lot I probably wouldn't consider an rpg if I had to actually choose. (Dark souls for instance)

But really I'm not putting any thought into this and just wasting time drunk, on the bus

 

[Cael]

a separate data file makes something advanced. So we can extrapolate the more files required, the more advanced. Still super arbitrary old chap.

Just FYI, weapons and equipment have separate data files in FOT. In NWN, armour has its own data file that is separate from weapons, race and class and stuff like that.

It would seem that weapons and armour are advanced features in RPGs.

 

[Jason Liang]

JA2 has advanced LOS, stealth, environmental feedback and party interaction systems that NONE of the Codex Top 10, 20, 50 RPGs have. It has the most memorable characters and the best party banter bar NONE, and it is all based on stats. It has a rudimentary dialogue and side quest structure that is on par with most of the 80s and even some of the 90s RPGs but what little it has there, feature more stat-based interactions than most of them put together. The entire game is packing more character than all IE games (sans PST) put together.

If you replaced all the firearms with magic, the contemporary setting and art with a medieval / fantasy one, it would be in the Codex Top 3 RPGs of all the punks who don't think it's an RPG.

JA2 has complicated combat, sure. But its advanced rule systems outside of combat are primitive or non-existent compared to actual rpgs like Pool of Radiance, Darklands, Temple of Elemental Evil, Baldur's Gate 2, New Vegas or even tactical rpgs like Shining Force 2 or even HOMM3. RPGs are a lot more complicated rules-wise than you might realize. This is why I would say JA2 is closer to an adventure game than a RPG.

I think you'll see the difference if you compare a JA2 faq to a Baldur's Gate 2 faq or website. A JA2 faq is mostly discussing strategy and tactics, not rules. Whereas if you look at a BG2 faq or the NWN wiki, its content is devoted to describing the rule systems hidden in the game's .2da files.

 

[Jacob]

My favorite part of Jason Liang post is where he considered BG2 and PoE as "RPG lineage" instead of classic RPG.

 

[Jason Liang]

My favorite part of Jason Liang post is where he considered BG2 and PoE as "RPG lineage" instead of classic RPG.

BG2:EE supports multiplayer gameplay, as does NWN obviously.

Baldur's Gate 2 is actually one of the root causes of this problem since it has far more adventure game elements than a classic rpg - story, plot twists, banter, romances, lore, crafting, quests, thieving, npc interaction. Due to its popularity and longevity, it is a main reason why the line between rpgs and adventure games have now blurred. ToEE with its minimal story, quests, banter and npc interaction is actually far closer to an "ideal" classic rpg.

In fact, this is yet another way to understand the problem of AoD and other modern rpgs of the decline age. By implementing an over-complicatead skill system, AoD tries to impose a "rule system" on the non-rpg, adventure portion of the gameplay. Even BG2 did not go this far, which is why BG2 outside of combat feels very much like an adventure game (taken to the extreme by PST). This explains why skill systems inherently contradict a game's rpg nature - a classic rpg's adventure gameplay has traditionally not required advanced rule systems. Why saddle a game with unnecessary rules?

For example, why does AoD have crafting when it doesn't have random loot? Crafting makes sense in a game with random loot such as Diablo 2 or Shining in the Darkness or even Arcanum, where one can acquire exciting rare crafting components. Crafting's merits are greatly diminished in a game where all of the loot is fixed.

 

[mondblut]

Let's see, you control a party of characters described by significant number of stats, and explore without restrictions a large open world full of enemies to kill, loot to find, some NPCs to talk and some quests to fulfill, in order to improve your party's stats, gain better items and advance the plot. Sounds familiar, what kind of game does that remind me of?

...but of course. Chess!

 

[Sacred82]

Let's see, you control a party of characters

you control a large number of parties of characters. Then again, people can LARP the hell out of things.

described by significant number of stats

muh significance, I can see it n u don lol

and explore without restrictions a large open world full of enemies to kill

you're moving from sector to sector and kill things. I know! Corridor shooter!

loot to find

there are items in the gameworld you can pick up and use. Hmmmmmm

some NPCs to talk and some quests to fulfill, in order to improve your party's stats, gain better items and advance the plot.

there are other humanoid looking things in the game and they give you objectives. If you complete those objectives, along the way your numbers will go up, and instead of reversing the plot, you're advancing it. Blimey, I'm really stumped here

Sounds familiar, what kind of game does that remind me of?

Give a bro some clues at least, will ya

 

[Jason Liang]

Let's see, you control a party of characters described by significant number of stats, and explore without restrictions a large open world full of enemies to kill, loot to find, some NPCs to talk and some quests to fulfill, in order to improve your party's stats, gain better items and advance the plot. Sounds familiar, what kind of game does that remind me of?

...but of course. Chess!

Character progression is extremely limited in JA2. Your characters do not learn new abilities. Sure, they improve their skills but it isn't meant to be signficant, nor is it an essential element of gameplay. Yes, it's possible to "train" your characters in some skills, but a lot of that is wonky and not supported by the way the game is designed to be played. In fact character progression in JA2 is even more primitive than unit progression in straight up tactical games like Fantasy General, Master of Monsters and Battle of Wesnoth.