Indie Legendary Journeys - a new open world blobber - now available on Early Access

[Lady_Error]

Full-screen map: a map of the current zone you are in or general world map?

Both on two separate screens would be nice, if that's feasible. I guess the world map doesn't need to be super accurate or even necessarily show where you are - that's something the players can figure out themselves. The best thing I can imagine is an image of an old parchment on which you see the outlines of the world, with some notable place names written on it.

 

[aweigh]

the front/back row thing is for weapon and spell ranges...

The Dark Spire (amazing Wizardry-clone game) uses a great 4-character system where you can choose to have 1 person in front and 3 in the back OR 2 people in front and 2 in the back OR 3 in the front and 1 in the back OR the inverse.

The more people you leave in front they gain a cumulative modifier to defenses and the parameters for enemy targeting clauses align accordingly AND the type of attacks they can do change as well (fighters gain powerful swings and such).

The people in the back also gain modifiers such as higher evasion AND their ranged attack options change as well such as thieves gain ability to shoot mutiple arrows.

The different attack options affect the turn order for example a Fighter in front who uses a big cleaving swing will take longer than if he uses a standard attack.

This all means that positioning (front or back) affects weapon and spell ranges as well as offensive and defensive modifiers and amount of attack options. All of it achieved with an extremely simple 4-character front/back row system and having the row-position and attack chosen affect the Turn Order modifier.

EDIT: This isnt in the Dark Spire but one example of an attack you could add is: a character using 1-handed weapon + Shield gains the ability to SHIED BASH only if in front-row.

Stuff like that goes a long way!

 

[Kevin French]

aweigh: I know what front/back row thing is for
I never played The Dark Spire. That does sound interesting and never thought of something like this before. I will take this into consideration for combat enhancements.

Lady Error: This is what I had in mind for maps of the area you are in. I did think about requiring the map be found/purchased before you could use it. Would that be going too far? I've been on the fence about this for a while.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Looks cool. Hang in there!

 

[Lady_Error]

I did think about requiring the map be found/purchased before you could use it. Would that be going too far? I've been on the fence about this for a while.

It was that way in Wizardry 7 originally, but then they also changed to simple automap. I don't know, it might be a cool feature or it might frustrate people early on that there is no automap. Probably better to just include it from the start.

 

[Grauken]

Stonekeep had that as well. I think finding pieces of the map in-game or mapping either as an items or skill is a cool feature, but these days probably too much of a hassle for players, so if you want to get the most people to play your game, probably better to include automap or some kind of map from the beginning, and you can add the option to disable mapping like Legend of Grimrock did, for those who like to do their own maps

 

[Lady_Error]

Except, again, even oldschool players won't be mapping a non-tile based game on graph paper.

 

[Grauken]

I've done maps for non-tiled games in the past (both 3d and 2d side-scrolling ones), but you're right, in most cases its not needed either by having a geography that is easy to remember or by providing in-game maps

 

[aweigh]

Wizardry Gaiden IV features a switch inside each dungeon floor which activates the AUTO MAP and fills it in. The player can explore old-school style or expend a spell (Dumapic) until they find that level's switch. Each level's map-switch is progressively harder to find and usually hidden which makes for a fun side-objective.

EDIT: The player has access to a limited auto-map by default but it only covers a small area and doesn't reveal hidden objects or areas or important locations. Finding a floor's map-switch expands the default AUTO MAP to the entire floor but still doesn't reveal secrets.

The Wizardry Empire series and the Elminage series utilize consumable Magic Map items which when consumed bring up a filled-in AUTO MAP of that dungeon floor for the duration upon which you look at the screen.

You could combine the two and allow players to buy a map item and price it exorbitantly to make it a precious resource AND also include optional objective of hiding a magical map-Switch inside each floor. It's what I would personally do wer I doing a dungeon crawler.

In the first few floors you can go easy by including the Magic Map items in COMMON LOOT LISTS.


TLDR:
- Standard mini-map/auto-map which tracks your progress but offers a very limited view of the players surroundings.
- Consumable mapping items.
- Switches in each area which expand and fill-in the default mini-map/auto-map.

All three combined form Captain Planet.

Also Lady Error is right that nobody's mapping by hand 3d space. I rarely bother mapping by hand nowadays either since most dungeon crawlers come with some form of auto-map. I honestly can't remember the last one I played which had no way of auto-mapping by itself in SOME form.

EDIT x2:

You could also have DIFFICULTY SETTINGS for mapping options!

 

[Grauken]

Yeah, but imagine how well that would play with today's gamers

 

[aweigh]

what specifically? the difficulty settings?

It was just a thought since he mentioned playing PAPER SORCERER and that game has difficulty settings. It's not a reach to have mapping options be toggable in some way.

I think the easiest thing to do for a small blobber dev is just to do a default and standardized AUTO-MAP that fills itself in as the player progresses through the area but without marking secrets.

Seems like the easiest thing for a lone programmer to do that will appease both old-schoo and new-school.

 

[Grauken]

eh, you changed your post, btw. I think most gamers these days, if there's no easy to use automap from the start, won't play a game at all

 

[aweigh]

Hell he could do it like ETRIAN ODYSSEY games and allow the payer to use Mouse and Keyboard to draw the damn thing themselves LOL

Although it should be noted that the EO games also offer automatic mapping (no stylus drawing required) option.

 

[Grauken]

I quite like the mapping from the EO games, they managed to get people to manually draw maps and like it, no mean feat these days. But I'm not sure how well that would work with non-tile based game

 

[Werdna's Revenge]

Yeah mapping in non-tile based games is a tricky subject. In fact I'd say mapping is less important than making interesting 3D spaces to explore. Don't be afraid to get really vertical in your dungeon design even if it makes traditional mapping difficult.

 

[aweigh]

for sure that absolutely goes without saying!

 

[CptMace]

Damn, I was about to miss this thread.
Welcome and thank you for posting on the 'dex sir , you obviously have my full support considering your fine tastes in crpgs and your prestigious last name.
I'm even ready to disregard the fact that you went for this eminently less desirable option of free-movement. Although my concern with it might have to do with my distaste for free-movement m&m games.

Bon courage for the rest of the development !

Don't be afraid to get really vertical in your dungeon design

I second this strongly.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Fog of war style automap revealing a 2d image allowing text map markup (with room in the margins for details) that communicates enough information about surroundings for the player to feel accomplished in using landmarks to discern where they are (no GPS). Simple and effective.

 

[Lady_Error]

Wizardry Gaiden IV features a switch inside each dungeon floor which activates the AUTO MAP and fills it in. The player can explore old-school style or expend a spell (Dumapic) until they find that level's switch. Each level's map-switch is progressively harder to find and usually hidden which makes for a fun side-objective.

"Map switches" hardly make any logical sense. It may be okay for a pure dungeon crawler, but for a game with an overworld it's complete nonsense.

 

[Lady_Error]

I see no point in pursuing any of the semi-masochist map ideas. Just make a 2D map with GPS and fog and war - preferrably one that doesn't reveal secret locations from just looking at the map. So basically you have to "unlock" a secret area first before it appears on the map.

 

[Daemongar]

I like what I see. Just a thought. Please try to soften the music a little to give the player a time to relax. Seems the music is a little intense, when there is music at all. I still remember a lot of games having travel music that kind of calmed things down. Your music is a little too intense at all times. I know there is some mellow stuff at the 5:16 mark or so, but it seem pretty uninspired. Listen to this. It's some Arena travel music.



Otherwise, it looks good.

 

[aweigh]

a map switch is the equivalent of simply finding a map of the area in any other game. I haven't seen it utilized in any other dungeon crawler though. There are many reasons to have a map of over-world areas as well? I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. A person does not automatically know the lay of the land.

in fact buying a map of an over-world area (i.e. your surroundings) would be the kind of thing an adventurer would do first thing upon entering a town.

in any case i think for the scope of this game it would be best to do a simple automap of some sort which fills in as you explore the area.

i.e. the same type of auto-mapping all modern dungeon crawlers use.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

If the dev wants to automap, I suggest they look at the automap in Ultima Underworld... It is the most elegant mapping solution ever IMO and it marries well to a free movement blobber.

- Paints the map as the area is discovered
- Allows for personal markup
- Allows for erase of markup
- Room in the Margin for notes and reference
- Simple up/down level change
- Blank level maps can be used for user kept game notes

 

[Kevin French]

CptMace: Glad you didn't miss the thread.
Werdna's Revenge and CptMace : Im trying for more vertical dungeons since this is not a classic dungeon-crawler. I have a couple of small dungeons that are vertical.

Daemongar: You are the first to dislike the music. Of course, I've only had one other person comment (another forum) that liked the music. I normally listen to the track of a game maybe once or twice then mute it when possible. So, I went back and did a little research and listened to the tracks of past games that I had muted. And, yeah, I guess it is a little in your face. One of my favorite tracks has got to be MM6. Really love it. And, it isn't in your face. Maybe my youth is still influencing me - I was a metalhead growing up (listened to heavy metal music in case you are not familiar with the term) :D

Based on the mapping discussion that I see going on here, it really doesn't matter what I come up with as I will not please everyone.
I will take everyone's suggestions into consideration when I circle back to mapping. My first implementation wasn't bad; but, I didn't like it in the end. Now I know this group would have hated it Since this is not your classic step dungeon crawler, I'll probably keep the map simple. But, I'll keep working on it.

In the end I figure if a small subset of players from this forum likes the game, I've accomplished something.


Later today, I'll be posting about the magic system.

 

[CptMace]

it really doesn't matter what I come up with as I will not please everyone.

I'd even add that pleasing everyone should be a secondary concern, if a concern at all.
It's already tough to manage to please a specific type of people after all.