Killing kids: why and why not?

[Norfleet]

We can assume information travels in the game world independently of you. I think that's one of the things whiners can't wrap their heads around, they believe if they left no witnesses, then what they did in one location should never affect another location. Except by the game's lore, those places aren't shut off from the rest of the world. Just because you don't see NPC's travelling between locations, doesn't mean it's not happening by the game's logic.

Yeah, but once flow of information is relegated to random travellers, the quality of that information degrades to the level of hearsay. In many games, this information either fails to travel at all, or travels with the efficiency of front page news, with nothing in between.

Again, Morrowind is a great example for it. You have one failsafe alternative solution if you kill, accidentally or purposely, NPCs important to the main quest. And even that one can fail if you kill certain characters (IIRC you can't kill Yagrum Bagarn or you're screwed entirely).

Yeah, Morrowind lets you do it, but warns you that you just fucked the game, GG.
I actually liked how Arcanum supposedly let you resurrect anyone. Supposedly.

So you talk to some ghost that just randomly appears. You want information from the guy, but how are you going to get that? Friendly Ghost delivers himself into your hands by saying that he won't find rest until you've avenged him. It's not going to be that easy every time, or is it?

Yes, which brings us to the question of "So what if we raised that guy? Does he still need avenging? Can he get his own revenge now?".

Fast forward to Shrouded Hills, you kill a weak NPC (like the Herbalist), resurrect them... nothing. No dialogue. Even though that NPC later turns out to have had vital information for the main quest.

You'd think that he could have at least simply continued doing his thing, possibly with a complaint about how much being killed stings.

 

[Norfleet]

The RPG industry is trying to attract female players by making women characters ugly. They would probably be much more successful if they simply allowed the killing of kids.

I'm not sure this will work. I don't think any medium attracts by making your avatar ugly. Everyone, men and women, prefers being attractive.

 

[Sacred82]

We can assume information travels in the game world independently of you. I think that's one of the things whiners can't wrap their heads around, they believe if they left no witnesses, then what they did in one location should never affect another location. Except by the game's lore, those places aren't shut off from the rest of the world. Just because you don't see NPC's travelling between locations, doesn't mean it's not happening by the game's logic.

Yeah, but once flow of information is relegated to random travellers, the quality of that information degrades to the level of hearsay. In many games, this information either fails to travel at all, or travels with the efficiency of front page news, with nothing in between.

Question is how deep down that rabbit hole anyone wants/ needs to go.

"The herbalist of Shrouded Hills was killed and people have reported seeing a very large person, possibly Half-Ogre, in the vicinity"

so they don't have a mugshot of you but they are... what? Suspicious? And how would you express that? Do I have to tell people I was in Shrouded Hills recently/ had dealings with a certain shopkeeper recently? And if yes, how are things going to develop from there?

In the end, it might be better to let the game handle these things behind the scene. You kill some hermit in his cabin in the woods with no "faction" in the picture - it's a safe thing. You kill one NPC with the rest of the settlement still around, and you still hang out there = bad idea. You kill the entire settlement = possibly not a bad idea but should still have some effect on the world at large.

So you talk to some ghost that just randomly appears. You want information from the guy, but how are you going to get that? Friendly Ghost delivers himself into your hands by saying that he won't find rest until you've avenged him. It's not going to be that easy every time, or is it?

Yes, which brings us to the question of "So what if we raised that guy? Does he still need avenging? Can he get his own revenge now?".

Fast forward to Shrouded Hills, you kill a weak NPC (like the Herbalist), resurrect them... nothing. No dialogue. Even though that NPC later turns out to have had vital information for the main quest.

You'd think that he could have at least simply continued doing his thing, possibly with a complaint about how much being killed stings.

resurrect = conjure spirit. So no, you shouldn't expect a fully functional NPC, but something that you can get information from. U no, just like our friendly tutorial ghost. Thing is, this works way too rarely throughout the game, usually only on people that the game has already declared dead. I think it doesn't even work properly on the Schuylers; if it works at all, no information is gleaned that you didn't already get during your little dialogue with them.

 

[JarlFrank]

resurrect = conjure spirit. So no, you shouldn't expect a fully functional NPC, but something that you can get information from. U no, just like our friendly tutorial ghost. Thing is, this works way too rarely throughout the game, usually only on people that the game has already declared dead. I think it doesn't even work properly on the Schuylers; if it works at all, no information is gleaned that you didn't already get during your little dialogue with them.

I do agree that Conjure Spirit is severely under-utilized in Arcanum. It could be a top notch spell offering really cool shit, but it only works in some rare instances and most of the time the conjured spirit just says "Aaaa put me back!" with no dialogue options appearing.

 

[Norfleet]

Not to mention it's a one-trick pony. Spells like that should try to avoid being one-trick ponies, there should be multiple uses for them, such as a general-purpose use in addition to their specific case.

 

[Dodo1610]

What's the point of this discussion? No company on this planet will sell a game in which you can rape someone or murder children or god know what perverted shit you want to in a video game. There is even the issue that visual depictions of rape are illegal in a lot of countries so your game could be outright banned in most places.

 

[Sacred82]

What's the point of this discussion? No company on this planet will sell a game in which you can rape someone[...]or god know what perverted shit you want to in a video game.

the question is why you'd want that

 

[Norfleet]

What's the point of this discussion? No company on this planet will sell a game in which you can rape someone

What about that weird squid porn game with the fangface guy that seems to come up so often here? Was that not being sold by some company? I don't think Japan has successfully launched their country into space yet, so I assume they're still on this planet. Even if they shouldn't be.

 

[Xeon]

I would appreciate it if smacking a kid and the said kid wising up was a thing. If the kid instead of behaving better chooses to go complain to their parents then you can just kill the parent and teach them a hard lesson.

 

[Norfleet]

Question is how deep down that rabbit hole anyone wants/ needs to go.

"The herbalist of Shrouded Hills was killed and people have reported seeing a very large person, possibly Half-Ogre, in the vicinity"

I imagine it would work like GTA wanted levels. Bump off one unimportant person with no direct witnesses and maybe it will be reported that this unimportant person died under suspicious circumstances. If it keeps happening, maybe someone will get a glimpse of you in or around the scene. Kill somebody slightly more relevant and maybe suspicion will be cast upon anyone unusual who was around, like, say, you, even if you weren't seen directly. If things keep happening and you keep being around, you might become suspicious and authorities might ask you questions about it. If your wantedness-level isn't too high, and you vacate the area and don't draw any more attention, interest in you will be lost. And so on, so-forth.

 

[Sacred82]

I would appreciate it if smacking a kid and the said kid wising up was a thing. If the kid instead of behaving better chooses to go complain to their parents then you can just kill the parent and teach them a hard lesson.

Possible reason why people want killable children in RPG's is that developers put kids in there you just want to shoot in the face. Like running an evil party in IWD, you have a long trek behind you, barely escaping the giants' assault, and the kid that greets you is like "you're ugly enough to be monsters!". Giving a relatively good-natured answer like "we're monsters looking to eat children! RAAAAAHH" and the kid and the entire town turn hostile.

Question is how deep down that rabbit hole anyone wants/ needs to go.

"The herbalist of Shrouded Hills was killed and people have reported seeing a very large person, possibly Half-Ogre, in the vicinity"

I imagine it would work like GTA wanted levels. Bump off one unimportant person with no direct witnesses and maybe it will be reported that this unimportant person died under suspicious circumstances. If it keeps happening, maybe someone will get a glimpse of you in or around the scene. Kill somebody slightly more relevant and maybe suspicion will be cast upon anyone unusual who was around, like, say, you, even if you weren't seen directly. If things keep happening and you keep being around, you might become suspicious and authorities might ask you questions about it. If your wantedness-level isn't too high, and you vacate the area and don't draw any more attention, interest in you will be lost. And so on, so-forth.

yeah that... sounds like a major gameplay mechanic. I mean I could see this in Arcanum if Arcanum focused more heavily on the whole Victorian angle of things.

Not to mention that the PC's will always be major suspects. New in town, armed, and you're barging into every single house. You're literally always somewhere around the murder scene.

 

[Neanderthal]

Remember every Elf child is still an Elf, putting them out of their misery is righteous and moral. The future of humanity rests in our hands, and their blood must be upon them, so that we may wrestle out a destiny free of the other.

A good man does not ask if the Elfling should live, he asks where is the next.

 

[mondblut]

What's the point of this discussion? No company on this planet will sell a game in which you can rape someone or murder children or god know what perverted shit you want to in a video game. There is even the issue that visual depictions of rape are illegal in a lot of countries so your game could be outright banned in most places.

Mods will fix it, thankfully.

 

[Lord Commissar Alexer]

Too much outrage.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Anything goes. It's a fucking game. Holy shit.

 

[Cael]

There should be consequences to those actions, and if the game is in any way remotely like real life, those kind of actions would get the hammer dropped on the PC hard. Arcanum sort of had that, and beyond a certain part of the main quest, you are basically locked into the Evil ending and lose two entire chapters of the game. Fallout had it also in that you get the Childkiller or Slaver reputation and a lot of things are closed to you.

In Fallout, it actually made LESS sense, because those were, in fact, criminal scum who deserved it, and the world is a harsh, unforgiving wasteland in which people meet brutish and nasty ends all the time. Would be far more reasonable in a setting and time where people give a shit about these things, but not Fallout. Fallout is a setting where people are routinely robbed, raped, tortured, and murdered, and there is no meaningful communication network beyond word of mouth from the few travellers on the wastes, who are turn kind of shady characters, so all but the most heinous atrocities ought to pass without much notice. Killing ONE thieving street urchin ought to be a complete non-event! Those kids don't even belong to anyone!

You are thinking of the Den only. There are other kids around in other cities. Even Vault City has one. And the ones in the Den has that diner lady trying to look out for them (even opens an orphanage for them if you get the Restoration Patch). So, yes, word of mouth will get out.

In a post-apoc style game like Fallout, it makes sense that children are looked after. They represent the next generation and are rare enough that people who are trying to survive will view them as precious. Not everyone is a cackling murder-rape hobo. The people in Modoc, Vault City, NCR, Klamath, Redding, Broken Hills, San Fran, even New Reno and, yes, the Den will give them special attention.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Bitch please.

 

[Cael]

Bitch please.

Where is this? I don't recall seeing it in U5...

Also, I am betting your karma will crash if you go through those kids like a wheat shredder.

 

[Tavernking]

Good rule of thumb for ethics is to think if your Grandma would be ok with viewing it

Killing kids? OK
Fade to black hinting that rape has occured? JUST BARELY OK
Actual graphical depiction of rape? NOT OK

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

Good rule of thumb for ethics is to think if your Grandma would be ok with viewing it

Killing kids? OK
Fade to black hinting that rape has occured? JUST BARELY OK
Actual graphical depiction of rape? NOT OK

Your grandma is cool with childkillers? Hardcore.

 

[Cael]

Good rule of thumb for ethics is to think if your Grandma would be ok with viewing it

Killing kids? OK
Fade to black hinting that rape has occured? JUST BARELY OK
Actual graphical depiction of rape? NOT OK

Your grandma is cool with childkillers? Hardcore.

Probably wanted to kill him as a kid. We all have days like that :D

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Where is this? I don't recall seeing it in U5...

Also, I am betting your karma will crash if you go through those kids like a wheat shredder.

That's level 7 Hythloth, and no, dungeon encounters won't affect your karma, technically speaking those are just generic monsters wearing children sprites.

 

[Cael]

Where is this? I don't recall seeing it in U5...

Also, I am betting your karma will crash if you go through those kids like a wheat shredder.

That's level 7 Hythloth, and no, dungeon encounters won't affect your karma, technically speaking those are just generic monsters wearing children sprites.

Interesting. I never ran into that before. Hythloth is where the mystic armours are, right?

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Where is this? I don't recall seeing it in U5...

Also, I am betting your karma will crash if you go through those kids like a wheat shredder.

That's level 7 Hythloth, and no, dungeon encounters won't affect your karma, technically speaking those are just generic monsters wearing children sprites.

Interesting. I never ran into that before. Hythloth is where the mystic armours are, right?

It has been seven years since I last played it, I can't remember that much.

 

[DalekFlay]

Anything goes, just like the Codex. If you don't want to kill kids in an RPG, don't fucking do it. Simple. I also wish developers gave you way more immoral choices... steal from the orphans, fuck the guy for the item you need, blow up the school, whatever. Most "evil" choices are super lame in RPGs and amount to just being an asshole.