Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Grunker]

not all classes should be equally useful in combat

you're big on arbitrary and dogmatic rules of design, aren't you

ironically i feel his dogmatic approach was ultimately sawyer's biggest failure

Yes, clearly fighters and bards should be equal in combat situations. This is good design and definitely not a completely retarded idea.

Unless you're a larping simulationist, yes, it can be a completely viable way to design good games. Many if not most of the Codex' favourite games have bards that are more powerful than fighters.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

not all classes should be equally useful in combat

you're big on arbitrary and dogmatic rules of design, aren't you

ironically i feel his dogmatic approach was ultimately sawyer's biggest failure

Yes, clearly fighters and bards should be equal in combat situations. This is good design and definitely not a completely retarded idea.

Unless you're a larping simulationist, yes, it can be a completely viable way to design good games. Many if not most of the Codex' favourite games have bards that are more powerful than fighters.

most codexers are retarded, what's your point?

 

[Grunker]

That your concept of what can constitute a good RPG is extremely narrow and limited to a weird simulationist approach full of arbitrary rules.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

That your concept of what can constitute a good RPG is extremely narrow and limited to a weird simulationist approach full of arbitrary rules.

Yes, I'm sorry that my concept of what an RPG is matches up with D&D instead of whatever storybook is currently popular on the shitdex.

 

[Grunker]

Now I know you're trolling bards are infintely more powerful in combat than fighters in most editions of D&D except on very low levels, hence my reference to Codex faves

edit: oh wait shit you're a simulationist, I can feel a Vancian-argument creeping up. dear god please spare us

 

[Desiderius]

I don't see what penetration has to do with balance. In fact it seems like a completely pants-on-head system from a balance perspective.

You don't see what you don't want to see. That's why I put you on ignore. Add more value. Defend fewer failed premises.

There's a curve, then there's a flat part, then there's a big spike. Kinda of like Western Society in the hand of the selective levelers Soyer hangs out with. The flat part is similar to (NASCAR/MOBA style) bad balensing where anything that gives advantage is just outlawed/produces no effect.

 

[Grunker]

I don't see what penetration has to do with balance. In fact it seems like a completely pants-on-head system from a balance perspective.

That's why I put you on ignore

You're kind of doing a shit job of that mate

There's a curve, then there's a flat part, then there's a big spike. Kinda of like Western Society in the hand of the selective levelers Soyer hangs out with. The flat part is similar to (NASCAR/MOBA style) bad balensing where anything that gives advantage is just outlawed/produces no effect.

A MOBA would never have a system like penetration that's the entire point - if you want to make balance a key part of your system, you make everything gradual. That way if something is imbalanced you can just tone it down one notch or up one notch. Penetration is the complete opposite, the system is inflexible and impossible to balance by design.

Which is why the exact same player with just 1 penetration difference in his gear can waltz through Beast of Winter or find it a grueling experience full of HP-bloated mobs.

 

[Haplo]

not all classes should be equally useful in combat

you're big on arbitrary and dogmatic rules of design, aren't you

ironically i feel his dogmatic approach was ultimately sawyer's biggest failure

Yes, clearly fighters and bards should be equal in combat situations. This is good design and definitely not a completely retarded idea.

Agreed. Therefore Bards in NWN for example were clearly superior combatants to fighters.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Now I know you're trolling bards are infintely more powerful in combat than fighters in most additions of D&D except on very low levels, hence my reference to Codex faves

edit: oh wait shit you're a simulationist, I can feel a Vancian-argument creeping up. dear god please spare us

Whatever garbage that was shat out by WotC is not real D&D, sorry. Just because it's wearing D&D's skin does not make it so.

 

[BING XI LAO]

I think his concept of fun excludes killing things quickly, because he wants fights where you have to blow a lot of resources (hence making everything per encounter so you'd have no excuse not to blow everything). Quick kills mean you're not exploring the breadth of your character's toolset.

This a great description of why Pillars fights are boring. Every single damn combat when I tried to replay it recently was a deal where I would eventually cast 1 of every spell.
Completely the opposite from Underrail combat in contrast or the Avadon series, which are much more swift-feeling despite being turn-based. In fact the Avadon series ironically has a much better engagement mechanic.

 

[The Jester]

This guy in reddit nailed it > https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat...t_is_it_that_baldurs_gate_was_so_good_at_and/

BG: you can cast spells whenever you want.
PoE: no, only in combat!
.
BG: you can make a bad character, if you want.
PoE: no, whatever you do, your character should be decent.
.
BG: you can get broken, crazy, items. Cloaks that turn you into wolves, rings that double the amount of spells you cast, wands that paralyze even some of the most powerful enemies etc. (and I'm just naming BG1 stuff here).
PoE: no, it's too much! Have a sword that does a bit more damage or an armor that's a little bit more protective.
.
BG: you can run straight to powerful monsters and kill them for tons of xp, if you want.
PoE: no, you play the game our way. Killing monsters doesn't yield xp, you're supposed to do quests, even if it's your 500th time through the game and you've seen every possible outcome.
.
BG: you can multiclass and dual-class.
PoE (1, at least they fixed that in 2, holy hell): no, single classes only!
.
BG: mages can buff, summon, do damage, polymorph, debuff etc..
PoE: no, that's too much power (read: fun) for one class. Divide them up into several very narrow classes.
.
BG: you can move around as much as you want during combat.
PoE: no, sit still while you're engaged.
.
BG: here's a level 1 spell that can instakill an enemy and here's a spell that can turn even the final boss into a squirrel. Have fun.
PoE: no, almost all mage spells should be 'do x amount of y type of damage', that's more balanced.
.
BG: your druid can stay shapeshifted for as long as you want. Hell, pretend you're a bear permanently if you want.
PoE: no, shapeshifting only in combat and only for a small amount of time!

It needs to relax and be an adventure, not a novel. I think modern CRPGs are trying to chase the warped memory of what old crpgs were and not what they actually were. They were epic and deep and serious at times (especially planescape) and they were sometimes witty and funny, but they were first and foremost good adventures with a creative vision and charm. You might try Disco Elysium.

 

[Butter]

I think his concept of fun excludes killing things quickly, because he wants fights where you have to blow a lot of resources (hence making everything per encounter so you'd have no excuse not to blow everything). Quick kills mean you're not exploring the breadth of your character's toolset.

This a great description of why Pillars fights are boring. Every single damn combat when I tried to replay it recently was a deal where I would eventually cast 1 of every spell.
Completely the opposite from Underrail combat in contrast or the Avadon series, which are much more swift-feeling despite being turn-based. In fact the Avadon series ironically has a much better engagement mechanic.

Yeah, the sensible design approach is to create enemies with unique mechanics and varied tactics that require the player to react. This is something that almost never occurs in Pillars of Eternity until you get to the White March.

 

[TigerKnee]

Whatever garbage that was shat out by WotC is not real D&D, sorry. Just because it's wearing D&D's skin does not make it so.

The heck? Bards were strong combatants long before 3E

 

[Cryomancer]

Instead of comparing Pillars to BG2 which is a single player game, why not compare to a mmo where you expect bullshit stuff made by the sake of balancing?

• DDO : You can be a vampire, lich, wraith or zombie and as a high level pale master, can reanimate your companions giving zombie template to then. It works on players and hirelings.
• PILLARS : Undeath only for enemies. And wizards can only do AoE

• DDO : Here is a talent to give your INT mod to hit if you wanna make a melee wiz/sor and here is a unique aura for melee warlocks. If you wanna, you can use your INT mod on your reflex saves too., just pick this feat.
• PILLARS : Every attribute should be usable for everyone. Wanna throw hotter fireballs? Go the gym!!!

• DDO : Wanna have undead servants? We sadly due old server architecture can offer unlimited summons, but here, look to this skeleton pet which scales with you and is good as a fighter hireling of same lv. You can have him, a summon and a hireling.
• PILLARS : No summons for wiz. Wiz should be only AoE DPS like in every generic wow clone!!!

• DDO : Enjoy your OHK pale master build. BTW, we are making Magus of the Eclipse, a epic destiny focused on necromancy. Our AI will use sunbeam on you and deathward to protect themselves from you if they see that you are a vampire.
• PILLARS : No OHK. Disintegrate will only do minor damage!!!

When a MMO is less obsessed with balance, hence produce a better game, is because you are taking balance too far.

 

[Grunker]

PILLARS : wizards can only do AoE

wat

 

[Cryomancer]

PILLARS : Undeath only for enemies. And wizards can only do AoE

wat

Only enemies can be undeads in pillars. And wiz is the generic mmo style aoe dps.

 

[Grunker]

the strongest wizard build in pillars is arguably a melee build. what r u smoking

in fact, doing AoE-damage is probably the least effective way to use a wizard in pillars out of the many available options

 

[Nano]

The heck? Bards were strong combatants long before 3E

"citation needed"

rusty_shackleford, Bards are arcane casters in 2E, which automatically makes them better than Fighters. Are you stupid or something?

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Maybe im too easy on crpgs but PoE I & II were both nice games, with large area to explore, nice lore and fine audio-video. They had flaws but in general i found them to be nice to play, still looking for Avowed too.

They aren't bad games in the sense of being unplayable trash or so badly created you wonder if you just saw a glimpse of unfurled madness.

They're just boring and when you promise the world the successor to BG2, the second coming of IE goodness, boring isn't GOOD enough, baby!

And this is why POE games are ultimately shit. Yes, they're shit. How can two RPGs that aren't really bad when it comes to being games be considered shit? Because they lied to me and you, Wulfric Pinewood. I hate that they lied to me and I will never forgive Joshua Bertram Sawyer for lying to you especially. This isn't as good as any IE game, this sure as hell isn't what people were waiting fifteen years for. This game wanted to be directly compared to those old CRPGs, all of which are covered on Lilura's Blog by the way which sees millions of unique viewers every year, and it was compared. It comparatively sucked. So now it has to deal with that reputation.

Choice & consequence, baby.

 

[Haplo]

Instead of comparing Pillars to BG2 which is a single player game, why not compare to a mmo where you expect bullshit stuff made by the sake of balancing?

I liked DDO when I played it long ago.
But you give so much false info about Pillars, that I'm quite convinced you've never played it. In fact almost everything you wrote is false.

• PILLARS : Undeath only for enemies. And wizards can only do Aoe

Undead can serve the player in Pillars, just not the wizard class. Chanter does have undead summons though.
Also wizards can only aoe? WTF?

• No summons for wiz. Wiz should be only AoE DPS like in every generic wow clone!!!

Really? What about Essential Phantom, Maura's Writhing Tentacles and Substantial Phantom? Tentacles are a great enemy blocker. And the real nice thing about the phantoms is that they copy player equipment. Including temporary summoned weapons, like the Blackbow that makes enemies afraid and has a bouncing attack. Or in Deadfire the usually one-off Draining Touch, that targets Will, does big damage and leeches health.

• PILLARS : No OHK. Disintegrate will only do minor damage!!!

What are you smoking? Disintegrate is possibly the most damaging spell in Pillars. It melts normal enemies and deals heavy damage to bosses. The only difference is that it's damage over time and not one time. But in most scenarios it's WAY better then DnD Disintegrate.

Please do your homework before writing ridiculous statements. You make yourself look silly(er) by writing info that's 90%f alse.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

But in most scenarios it's WAY better then DnD Disintegrate.

If we're talking OG/2E Disintegrate then I'm going to dropkick you with all 8 of these motherfuckers.

 

[Cryomancer]

If we're talking OG/2E Disintegrate then I'm going to dropkick you with all 8 of these motherfuckers.

Yep. He probably thinks that is 5E disintegrate which can't even OHK low CR mobs.

BTW, OHK stuff is not a thing present only on D&D. GURPS has it, vampire : the masquarede, vampire : the requiem, The Call of Cthulhu, all OSR games based on D&D too. Lamentations of the flame princess, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea, swords & wizardry(...) In video games, be able to do shirt like this is very cool :



I don't get why he hates fun so much...

 

[Grunker]

make up a bunch of shit

get called out

ignore and make up some new shit

ad&d fans

 

[Darth Canoli]

They aren't bad games in the sense of being unplayable trash or so badly created you wonder if you just saw a glimpse of unfurled madness.

They're just boring and when you promise the world the successor to BG2, the second coming of IE goodness, boring isn't GOOD enough, baby!

And this is why POE games are ultimately shit. Yes, they're shit. How can two RPGs that aren't really bad when it comes to being games be considered shit? Because they lied to me and you, Wulfric Pinewood. I hate that they lied to me and I will never forgive Joshua Bertram Sawyer for lying to you especially. This isn't as good as any IE game, this sure as hell isn't what people were waiting fifteen years for. This game wanted to be directly compared to those old CRPGs, all of which are covered on Lilura's Blog by the way which sees millions of unique viewers every year, and it was compared. It comparatively sucked. So now it has to deal with that reputation.

Choice & consequence, baby.

PoE 1/2 are boring enough on their own without the comparison.
- Game system/character dev is just bland
- Settings is bland, even worse than BG and we can agree to say than the sword coast is one of the less interesting settings.
- Bestiary and encounters are pathetic
- Stories are bad as well, in PoE, it starts midly interesting but for some reason, you have no way of saving even one early recruit (so, no more illusions, it's not a RPG)
- PoE 2 could be more interesting but while you should be in a rush, you somewhat accept every single retarded side-quest because that's what you do in a MMO RPG, right?
- I could go on, there is no redeemable quality

They say, monkeys could create masterpieces if they keep at it infinitely, well so far, these monkeys are happy enough with flinging shit at us and some people even like it...

Now, the good thing is, after playing PoE 1/2, DOS 1/2 and Kingmaker, replay BG 1 & 2 with some of the best mods and it really feels good.

And then, play KotC 1 & 2, Dungeon Rats and Colony Ship and you're in RP gamers' heaven.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

ad&d fans

Pump your breaks, boy, you're fixing to go to war with a whole generation of hard ass THAC0 niggaz.

shows off prison tattoos