Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[rusty_shackleford]

(it shouldn't have AAA price tag then).

it costs $1

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Doesn't really change anything as most people still expect Avowed to be amazing and excuse TOW with low budget and being AA (it shouldn't have AAA price tag then).

I saw more people being excited but not actually hype Avowed to be amazing because there's literaly nothing. Also Outer Worlds costed $1 if got via Gamepass when lauched.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Well, it had lesbian sex. That has to count for something.

Can relate to that. Lesbian sex with a God Bird as voyeur.

 

[Harthwain]

Still baffled by the decision to make an entire fantasy world from scratch, as well as a new class-based system, only for it to have so much that's unoriginal. So you have the worst of both worlds, neither tradition nor originality.

They probably didn't want to tie themselves legally to brand owners by having to develop something based on already established setting, so they decided to have a cake and eat it by creating their own not-DnD fantasy setting. Creative Assembly (the makers of Total War series) did something similar by creating Total War: Three Kingdoms, despite Total War: Warhammer being their best series. It's all because by making their own project they don't have to share the money with Games Workshop. At the same time Obsidian couldn't go with something totally fresh, because the whole Kickstarter project was evoking the nostalgia of games like Baldur's Gate. Hence "the same but not the same" approach.

But I do agree it's a good argument that if you want to be unoriginal then you should stick to the already established settings. This could be very well the reason why Kingmaker was a success, while Deadfire was not. In fact, it being Pillars of Eternity 2 could've harmed it more than helped. Pillars of Eternity 1 was riding mainly on the massive Kickstarter hype, Pillars of Eternity 2 didn't have that and Pillars of Eternity 1 probably convinced a lot of people they won't like Deadfire anyway and lower sales were the result.

At this point I'd say they should try to innovate entirely, rather than keep trying to come up with anything Pillars-related.

 

[Readher]

(it shouldn't have AAA price tag then).

it costs $1

Not on consoles and not in retail. Just because Microsoft gave a sack of money to have it in Game Pass day one doesn't change the fact that publisher valued the game at $60.

 

[Chippy]

Why is Josh Sawyer deflecting with Steam achievements? Doesn't want to piss off his co-workers?.

People can tell when a game is a labour of love, created by competent people. And can tell when it was created by talentless, clueless people.

 

[Erebus]

The reason why Kingmaker is superior to Deadfire is that the combat system is better and the fights are more entertaining.

If you put that aside, Deadfire is just as good. It has some flaws (most of them related to the gods), but so does Kingmaker.

 

[Readher]

Why is Josh Sawyer deflecting with Steam achievements? Doesn't want to piss off his co-workers?.

People can tell when a game is a labour of love, created by competent people. And can tell when it was created by talentless, clueless people.

I don't think incompetent is what I'd call PoE and I'm saying that as someone who couldn't even manage to get to 50% of the first game. It's just that it's the type of game that at best you're going to forget about it month after finishing and at worst you're gonna drop it early. It just doesn't have that something that grabs you. When Kingmaker came out I played nothing but it for a whole week straight until encountering game-breaking which forced me to drop it. I had time off and I literally did nothing but ate, slept and played the game. Not even friends pestering me to play CS:GO could manage to persuade me and I usually go along with it. D:OS2 was the same for me even though I consider Kingmaker a much better game.

Honestly the most "objective" criticism I can give to PoE is that the writing was pretentious and boring, but beyond that I can't really say anything bad about it. It just didn't manage to hold my attention and make me feel involved. I read a lot of interactive fiction on a certain site that's sadly infested with SJWs but still produces some great, enjoyable games (if you can call IF games that is), and I usually know if the game will be good by reading the first 3-4 pages (which is a few hundred words at most). There was not a single instance where the IF seemed uninteresting/boring at the start but then turned out good and I probably played around hundred of them at this point. The only thing to keep in mind is that some IFs are stuck in WIP state for a long time or get outright abandoned, so it's possible that the could've gone to shit at some point had their development continue. That said, when it comes to those that actually had full release, my hunch was always correct and if a game grabbed me at the start, it was good right until the end.

 

[Sweeper]

is that the combat system is better and the fights are more entertaining.

That's like saying Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player. Technically true, but it doesn't quite desribe it fully.
It would be more appropriate to say that PF:KM has an amazing combat system (including a downright impressive amount of character building options).
And that it shits all over Deadfire.

If you put that aside

Yeah it's just the most glaring and negative aspect of the game, lets just put it aside.

 

[Erebus]

Yeah it's just the most glaring and negative aspect of the game, lets just put it aside.

I didn't mean to suggest that it's not very important. I'm just saying that discussing the other flaws that Deadfire may have is largely irrelevant : if combat was as good in Deadfire as it is in Kingmaker (easier said than done, of course), then Deadfire would be just as good a game as Kingmaker, perhaps even better.

 

[Chippy]

Why is Josh Sawyer deflecting with Steam achievements? Doesn't want to piss off his co-workers?.

People can tell when a game is a labour of love, created by competent people. And can tell when it was created by talentless, clueless people.

I don't think incompetent is what I'd call PoE and I'm saying that as someone who couldn't even manage to get to 50% of the first game. It's just that it's the type of game that at best you're going to forget about it month after finishing and at worst you're gonna drop it early. It just doesn't have that something that grabs you. When Kingmaker came out I played nothing but it for a whole week straight until encountering game-breaking which forced me to drop it. I had time off and I literally did nothing but ate, slept and played the game. Not even friends pestering me to play CS:GO could manage to persuade me and I usually go along with it. D:OS2 was the same for me even though I consider Kingmaker a much better game.

Honestly the most "objective" criticism I can give to PoE is that the writing was pretentious and boring, but beyond that I can't really say anything bad about it. It just didn't manage to hold my attention and make me feel involved. I read a lot of interactive fiction on a certain site that's sadly infested with SJWs but still produces some great, enjoyable games (if you can call IF games that is), and I usually know if the game will be good by reading the first 3-4 pages (which is a few hundred words at most). There was not a single instance where the IF seemed uninteresting/boring at the start but then turned out good and I probably played around hundred of them at this point. The only thing to keep in mind is that some IFs are stuck in WIP state for a long time or get outright abandoned, so it's possible that the could've gone to shit at some point had their development continue. That said, when it comes to those that actually had full release, my hunch was always correct and if a game grabbed me at the start, it was good right until the end.

Same here. I played POE 1 for about half a day. I also find it hard to summarize why it was bad. I think it kinda reminded me of that teacher I had at school. I was interested in the subject matter, but for 3 lessons @ 3hr per lesson each we had to listen to her talllKIIIIINNNNG in THisss KiNDoffff.... LLLooooooonnnnnGGGGG DRAWWWNN-ouuut TOne of VOICE.

Yeah. The tone. Maybe that was it.

 

[DalekFlay]

That's like saying Michael Jordan was a pretty good basketball player. Technically true, but it doesn't quite desribe it fully.
It would be more appropriate to say that PF:KM has an amazing combat system (including a downright impressive amount of character building options).
And that it shits all over Deadfire.

Kingmaker has a ton of mechanical depth and character building options that really give people into that stuff a boner, but I really doubt the people Josh didn't court the second time around care about that at all. He posted a bunch of stuff before about how it was the more casual audience they lost, not the hardcore Codex and PnP types. Those people don't give two fucks about Kingmaker's mechanics, in fact they were probably a major turn-off. They like Divinity more because of its whimsical tone, simple turn-based combat and co-op play.

 

[pomenitul]

Imagine ranting about how much you hate a game that's not all that different from the usual hivemind favourites for five straight years with almost no breaks in between.

 

[Sweeper]

Kingmaker has a ton of mechanical depth and character building options that really give people into that stuff a boner, but I really doubt the people Josh didn't court the second time around care about that at all. He posted a bunch of stuff before about how it was the more casual audience they lost, not the hardcore Codex and PnP types. Those people don't give two fucks about Kingmaker's mechanics, in fact they were probably a major turn-off. They like Divinity more because of its whimsical tone, simple turn-based combat and co-op play.

>Makes a homebrewed and simpler version of D&D
>Loses the casual crowed
>Loses the hardcore crowd
>What happened?
kek

Imagine ranting about how much you hate a game that's not all that different from the usual hivemind favourites for five straight years with almost no breaks in between.

Imagine being a Greek faggot.

 

[DalekFlay]

>Makes a homebrewed and simpler version of D&D
>Loses the casual crowed
>Loses the hardcore crowd
>What happened?
kek

He didn't lose the hardcore crowd, that was his whole point.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Imagine being a Greek faggot.

Based on his username, he's probably a Wallachian gypsy Romanian.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Kingmaker has a ton of mechanical depth and character building options that really give people into that stuff a boner, but I really doubt the people Josh didn't court the second time around care about that at all. He posted a bunch of stuff before about how it was the more casual audience they lost, not the hardcore Codex and PnP types. Those people don't give two fucks about Kingmaker's mechanics, in fact they were probably a major turn-off. They like Divinity more because of its whimsical tone, simple turn-based combat and co-op play.

Idk how people find Divinity 2 combat good, actually Divinity 2 at all good.. I tried playing for three times for 10+h but it's so boring, slow and armor system is just bad. Combat would go two ways, easy af or hard af. I tried 3 times and just didn't clicked. Wasted my money.

Deadfire isn't perfect but at least isn't the borefest that was Divinity 2. I still trying to understand how sold more than poe.. Probably the most overrated game that i played.

 

[Riddler]

Another option is that the narrative in Kingmaker is a simple and compelling power fantasy: become a king and build/defend your kingdom. PoE on the other hand has a convoluted and confused narrative that isn't particularly well written. The narrative in DoS is similarly a simple power fantasy: Become a god.

In Baldur's gate you are the child of the god and by the end of the two games you become a god.

In KotoR it turns out that you are the most famous and bad-ass Jedi of the age and get to rule the galaxy.

In Deadfire you don't have any agency on the events on the game and the main character ends up where they began.

 

[Sweeper]

Based on his username, he's probably a Wallachian gypsy Romanian.

Romanian shitposting intensifies

He didn't lose the hardcore crowd, that was his whole point.

His point is wrong then.
If you create a simplified version of something, and something that stays pretty true to the PnP system, the hardcore crowd's gonna gravitate towards the hardcore thing.
PoE and Deadfire to a larger extent was trying to bridge the gap between the mouthbreathers who like D:OS and 3.5 D&D Chads, such as myself.

Spoiler

It hasn't, and will never work.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, the whole "Pillars of Eternity did X and lost the hardcore crowd AND it did Y and lost the casual crowd, and that's why it failed!" strikes me as a bogus narrative.

In reality, hardcore players and casual players who disliked PoE probably largely felt that way for the same reasons, which have to do with what Readher said.

 

[Sweeper]

Yes, the narrative that "Pillars of Eternity changed mechanics and lost the hardcore crowd AND it wasn't fun/interesting enough and lost the casual crowd and that's why it failed!" strikes me as bogus. In reality, I believe hardcore players and casual players largely disliked PoE for the same reasons, which are related to what Readher mentioned.

So the people who don't give a fuck about the story and are only interested in character building and combat didn't like PoE/Deadfire cause the story was convoluted, boring and pretentious?

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, the narrative that "Pillars of Eternity changed mechanics and lost the hardcore crowd AND it wasn't fun/interesting enough and lost the casual crowd and that's why it failed!" strikes me as bogus. In reality, I believe hardcore players and casual players largely disliked PoE for the same reasons, which are related to what Readher mentioned.

So the people who don't give a fuck about the story and are only interested in character building and combat didn't like PoE/Deadfire cause the story was convoluted, boring and pretentious?

I'm talking about PoE1 here. The one thing that seems to be in consensus is that Deadfire sold poorly because of the first game, not on its own (lack of) merit.

But one of the reasons that Deadfire's failure was a bit surprising is that throughout its development, the hardcore Pillars of Eternity powergamer crowd on the Obsidian forums (yes, this was a thing) never went away. Like DalekFlay said Obsidian did have a hardcore player base and that's why it seemed like it they might be able to beat the odds and release a commercially successful sequel, which almost every traditional RPG series other than Divinity: Original Sin has failed to do. But, they didn't.

 

[Delterius]

people who post on forums are all insane tbh

 

[Dishonoredbr]

So the people who don't give a fuck about the story and are only interested in character building and combat didn't like PoE/Deadfire cause the story was convoluted, boring and pretentious?

As someone that i stopped playing POE1 mid Winter March part 1 , was mostly how everything was wordy with stupidly long text with no VA to explain everything. I still try to understand Grievece Mother's dialogue. I can't honestly remember what happen in the first game other than Devil of Caroc , Eder , Pallegina and Aloth character's arcs, those character were cool and simple yet interesting stories.. The rest of the game i can't remember..

 

[Heroic Liberator]

people who post on forums are all insane tbh