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Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

Joined
Jan 14, 2018
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Codex Year of the Donut
something overlooked is that many of the most powerful buffs are relatively low level spells and take spell slots that wouldn't be used for much else at higher levels
It's not much of a choice at all
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
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Apr 5, 2015
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Everyone is obsessing about PK outselling PoE, but the question is by how much. Is it 10% more, 20% more?
Deadfire has 4289 Steam reviews. Kingmaker has 8578.

Take a guess.

And that's with game journalists either ignoring Kingmaker or reviewing it negatively, while the polar opposite is true for Deadfire.

First Pillars has 8,574 and we know it sold well over a million and much more than P:K. So I don't think number of reviews can any give the measure of sales, more like P:K was review bombed early because of all the bugs. It's still sitting at 73% compared to 83% of Deadfire.
Kingmaker wasn't review bombed, otherwise there would be a disclaimer listed next to the review score. I guess you could argue that Pillars and Deadfire were so incredibly boring that few of its players could even sum up the effort to leave a review, but that seems like a stretch, as much as I enjoy shitting on the games.

I'm presuming people are more likely to leave a negative review especially if the game simply isn't working.
 

santino27

Arcane
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
The story issues in Deadfire are a whole different topic, but the mechanical problems are all on Josh, and they're attributable to him trying to figure out what players want by analysing what they do, and drawing some of the wrong conclusions. There are improvements, mind -- for example related to visual clarity, and I don't thin dropping the party size to 5 was a bad call. But the attrition thing was a supremely bad call and it was driven by a particular bugaboo of his, namely his quixotic quest to eliminate degenerate strategies once and for all.

Same thing with the proliferation of classes and subclasses. It's just completely nuts and it's obvious his heart isn't in it. They're there because Josh thinks the fans want it because BG2 had a ridiculous proliferation of classes, kits, multi-classing, and dual-classing. He would've been much better off building all that into the classes based on the P1 system, as perks/talents/whatever you get to pick. He prefers classless systems anyway, so taking the game further in that direction would likely have helped.

IOW I'll go back to what I said earlier: it's clear his heart isn't in this anymore, and he needs to find it and listen to what it's saying. Then if it tells him not to make games anymore, do that. Or if it tells him to make the most autistically detailed historic Darklands tribute, then find a way to do that. Just stop pandering to an imaginary audience based on meticulous analysis of metrics, all that'll give is a soulless, empty husk of a game.

I had the opposite take. I don't think the issue stems from Josh overthinking what the audience wants. Instead, I think it is an combination of Josh having to create a streamlined RPG for the masses (e.g., the lack of attrition mechanics) and Josh pushing what he wants out of an RPG system (no pre-buffing).
I feel like that was the problem with POE1... and then he overreacted to/misinterpreted people's reaction to that game and went full autist in yet another direction for Deadfire.
 

santino27

Arcane
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
The castle is much shorter.
Probably about the length of time it takes you to get to Port Maje tbh.

True. It was also less boring, partly because of brevity and partly because there's a sense of urgency/immediacy to it... people are attacking everywhere we go... let's push on and find out wtf is going on. As opposed to 'hey we're shipwrecked on an island... let's wander around and talk to the natives. oh look, it's aloth. At some point, we'll get a boat, I guess.'
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
It's a captain hindsight situation honestly, I don't think anyone could have predicted that 90% of Pillars 1 players will blow all their spells every fight and then backtrack for more camping supplies.
who would have guessed maps full of trash fights would direct players into degenerate gameplay? what did internal testers do? what did designer do?
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
3,036
Everyone is obsessing about PK outselling PoE, but the question is by how much. Is it 10% more, 20% more?
Deadfire has 4289 Steam reviews. Kingmaker has 8578.

Take a guess.

And that's with game journalists either ignoring Kingmaker or reviewing it negatively, while the polar opposite is true for Deadfire.

First Pillars has 8,574 and we know it sold well over a million and much more than P:K. So I don't think number of reviews can any give the measure of sales, more like P:K was review bombed early because of all the bugs. It's still sitting at 73% compared to 83% of Deadfire.
Kingmaker wasn't review bombed, otherwise there would be a disclaimer listed next to the review score. I guess you could argue that Pillars and Deadfire were so incredibly boring that few of its players could even sum up the effort to leave a review, but that seems like a stretch, as much as I enjoy shitting on the games.

I'm presuming people are more likely to leave a negative review especially if the game simply isn't working.
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
so there is a possibiility that one of them sold 500k and the other 1million?

hexer if you add patch notes from release to now you can sell it as a book and there are still some minor bugs
 

hexer

Guest
so there is a possibiility that one of them sold 500k and the other 1million?

hexer if you add patch notes from release to now you can sell it as a book and there are still some minor bugs

I agree, definitively the buggiest game I've ever seen.
It was probably released with over 1,000 bugs
 

Daidre

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
And algorithm that Steamspy uses, that allows like 50% margin of error is trustworthy?

I do not remember what it uses for approximation after Steam closed off API, was it achievement data or same concurrent player value that I posted?
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
The game wasn't even able to be completed when it originally released.

What do you mean? I completed it in a week after it was released and posted about it here on the forums... gotten ill in the process but that was the price of sleepless nights
game is bugged beyond playable, most of the quests in my log can't be finished now
steam should be forced to mark this as an early access title even if the developers disagree, it's not a finished product
That was 11 days after release.
btw, you were in chapter 4
In which Chapter are you?
I just finished Chapter 4, the game is fucking HUGE!
:M
 

Daidre

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Anyway Deafire was at 203,867 copies in July 2018 Steam leak, it is difficult to belief that they sold another 300k copies to even get into that 500k-1m bracket.

... I want another leak. Need new data.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
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Anyway Deafire was at 203,867 copies in July 2018 Steam leak, it is difficult to belief that they sold another 300k copies to even get into that 500k-1m bracket.

... I want another leak. Need new data.
That was owned copies not sold copies. Most of those were backer copies.
 

Tenebris

Scholar
Joined
Sep 18, 2017
Messages
278
You sort of notice this only on a second playthrough but all the reactivity in Deadfire is bullshit. They made a lot of classes and backgrounds share them. Godlikes for example were promised to have more this time around and they did however each individual Godlike type hardly had any. Being a Godlike itself had the most reactivity rather than reactivity to each unique subrace. To make things worse is some of the reactivity is shared with it's respective priest. (Priest of Magran and Fire Godlike share a good chunk of reactivity). Even with all that though the problem I had is all the different dialogue options led to the same response.
 

Cross

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
3,036
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
The game wasn't even able to be completed when it originally released.
Which would be relevant if it wasn't for the fact that most players don't complete games to begin with. Regardless, plenty of time has passed since release and Kingmaker is still sitting at a 'Mixed' rating. Let's see why.

I see 2 whole reviews complaining about technical issues, in a sea of reviews complaining about the game being too hard, unbalanced, having too much RNG, etc. This is a common issue with PnP adaptations. Blackguards, which was actually polished and bug-free, is still sitting at an abysmal 63% user score.

7VvO0K4.jpg
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
The game wasn't even able to be completed when it originally released.
Which would be relevant if it wasn't for the fact that most players don't complete games to begin with. Regardless, plenty of time has passed since release and Kingmaker is still sitting at a 'Mixed' rating. Let's see why.

I see 2 whole reviews complaining about technical issues, in a sea of reviews complaining about the game being too hard, unbalanced, having too much RNG, etc. This is a common issue with PnP adaptations. Blackguards, which was actually polished and bug-free, is still sitting at an abysmal 63% user score.

7VvO0K4.jpg
Look at the date on the reviews.
 

hexer

Guest
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
The game wasn't even able to be completed when it originally released.

What do you mean? I completed it in a week after it was released and posted about it here on the forums... gotten ill in the process but that was the price of sleepless nights
game is bugged beyond playable, most of the quests in my log can't be finished now
steam should be forced to mark this as an early access title even if the developers disagree, it's not a finished product
That was 11 days after release.
btw, you were in chapter 4
In which Chapter are you?
I just finished Chapter 4, the game is fucking HUGE!
:M

OK , it took me a few days longer than I remember.
I did find game stopping bugs in the end chapters that haven't even been addressed by the patches at that time but I got around them by saving often and reloading ..
it sucked but what else can you do when you don't want to wait ?
 

Daidre

Arcane
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Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
so there is a possibiility that one of them sold 500k and the other 1million?

hexer if you add patch notes from release to now you can sell it as a book and there are still some minor bugs

I agree, definitively the buggiest game I've ever seen.
It was probably released with over 1,000 bugs

Let the players find the bugs is the new business model. A shitty one because then your bugfixers don't understand the game so leave glaring basic things unfixed and hurt your rep.

I waited 6 months to buy the game and was fine.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Most of the negative reviews for Kingmaker were abbout the game being too difficult, not anything related to bugs.
The game wasn't even able to be completed when it originally released.
Which would be relevant if it wasn't for the fact that most players don't complete games to begin with. Regardless, plenty of time has passed since release and Kingmaker is still sitting at a 'Mixed' rating. Let's see why.

I see 2 whole reviews complaining about technical issues, in a sea of reviews complaining about the game being too hard, unbalanced, having too much RNG, etc. This is a common issue with PnP adaptations. Blackguards, which was actually polished and bug-free, is still sitting at an abysmal 63% user score.

7VvO0K4.jpg
Look at the date on the reviews.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/negativereviews/?browsefilter=toprated&snr=1_5_100010_
most of the negative reviews(especially the older ones) are complaints about bugs

Also, there should be some sort of way for developers to request people update their review. Some of these people obviously finished the game, maybe more than once(200+ hours played) after their review but never updated it. That's not fair.
 

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