Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Desiderius]

Stopping before every fight and going through your prebuff routine for 10 minutes is so immersive.

Actually..... it IS immersive, because you can bet a mage would want to do that every damn time if he were a real person with no save file. It's immersive, but tiresome.

Somehow I don't' remember Gandalf casting bunch of buffs on the fellowship of the ring every time it looked like there's enemy in the distance.

Blessings before battle are actually quite thematic. (Here's a dumb example: https://youtu.be/cTLMjHrb_w4?t=44) There are sufficiently few battles in LOTR, that it actually wouldn't have been absurd in that setting. It becomes absurd at the level of frequency in most cRPGs. Most importantly, it's boring and unstrategic. It basically never hurts to engage in the stupid rest/buff/fight/rest loop, it's just a huge waste of time. My favorite example was in the Spiderweb games where you actually would get these mass-prebuff spells but they were more costly than doing it individually -- literally the game was offering to trade you IRL time for in-game MP.

Regarding POE2, I really don't know what the market wants any more, but the relative success of Kingmaker makes me wonder whether "traditionalist" rather than "progressive" fantasy is just more marketable.

Some progress.

 

[fantadomat]

Your way of thinking is broken. The choice is to buff if you think the fight is going to be too hard for the normal attacks. When you see the big shadow dragon in BG2,you are well aware that there will be a reckoning,you don't have to be a genius to get it that it is time for some buffz. You must be a retard to constantly spam buff for every single fight. Don't lump everyone in your mental category lol!

Both systems have a choice when to buff, but one has drawbacks to buffing, the other doesn't, so what is the design justification for including it? What is the justification for not playing the system and buffing every fight in the second case? Because it's tedious? Why do you want your gameplay to be in any way tedious when there is another option while allowing for more tactical choices?

No,it doesn't have choices,you can't buff outside of battle in PoE. That is opposite of choice you dipshit! Who the fuck are you to tell me what is tedious and what not? You are just shit at the game and whine about prebuffing being needed to win battles,flash news it is not,you are just shit at the game,that is all. The rest of players are not responsible for your and sawyard authisms and the need to prebuff every 5 minutes while fighting low level enemies. In the whole BG 2 you "need" to prebuff like 6-10 times and most that is optional. Also the "need" is more of recommended than needed since you could win without it. Stop excusing your own lack of competence with the games mechanics! If you don't have fun playing the games,then fine,just walk away. Don't go on ling tirades about how shit X mechanic is and how the game should cater to your low skill level. Also the market had said its say,RPG fans ignored that pile of shit deadfire while bought in kingmaker even when it was unfinishable and bug ridden! Now go and take your authism pills and stop embarrassing yourself!

 

[Lacrymas]

What are you even talking about?

 

[MRY]

Two quick things:

(1) The old, sadly failed BG-like game Broken Hourglass seemed to have an easy fix, which is simply that buffing spells, once cast, persist until stopped, but basically eat up some percentage of magic power that otherwise could be used on combat spells (which would have casting times, but otherwise no cost). So, like, if you use 90% of your magic cap on haste and stoneskin, you won't have enough free magic power to spam fireballs ever n rounds. I've always thought this was a clean solution, particularly if the buff spells could only be started/stopped in some mage tower or something, such that you had to precommit.

(2) For what it's worth, the reason why POE2 didn't even spark my interest for a second even after I upgraded my computer (wheres POE at least got me to try running it on my creaky old computer) is that I already thought a "our elves are different, and have harder-to-pronounce names" setting was not especially appealing to me, and it became completely unappealing when transposed to a Pirates of the Caribbean setting since it made literally no sense there. There is a certain fun in taking established AD&G races and putting them in zany settings. ("What if WWII was populated by the Forgotten Realms bestiary!") Arcanum, Ravenloft, and, to a lesser extent, Spelljammer are examples of that. But once you deracinate the races, I don't really think that works. There's nothing particularly clever about seeing Facasfghkjl-as-pirates; I want to see the gnomes I know and recognize. Basically, POE said, "Well will take Forgotten Realms as a setting, but shift the races in various, mostly trivial, ways, to try to make them less recognizable." POE2 said, "Now we will shift those bastardized races into a setting that's less like Forgotten Realms, and more like Pirates!" At that point, there's just not enough left to hang onto. I'd rather play in a fantasy pirate setting built from the ground up, or simply a pirate setting without much fantasy at all.

 

[Desiderius]

Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Quote from wikipedia :

"During World War II, amphetamine and methamphetamine were used extensively by Allied and Axis forces for their stimulant and performance-enhancing effects."

Nazis = Meth heads

 

[BING XI LAO]

Somehow I don't' remember Gandalf casting bunch of buffs on the fellowship of the ring every time it looked like there's enemy in the distance.

Gandalf isn't a mage, as evidenced by his failure to ever cast fireballs and cloudkill and murder everything! He's almost certainly some kind of cleric/thief with a couple magic wands larping as a wizard.

 

[Atchodas]

Funniest thing of all is that Josh appears to not have a clue why something he designed is good or bad. Poor guy, being a lead crushed him. Good designer to have around, I genuinely believe that, but a horrible lead.

Josh knew that average customer is retarded so he tried to dumb it down to their level however he didn't realise how retarded sheeple really are and that dumbing down to their level is practically impossible, in result he only managed to piss off old school CRPG player base who bought first PoE game and realised its shit and then Deadfire did not improve on almost anything which resulted in shit sales because these games mostly sell by word of mouth.

Basically to make successful CRPG you have to please the hardcore player base first and once they agree that your game is good the sheeple will follow buy the game and not play it.

 

[Atchodas]

Because it allows for the element of opportunity cost. When you are buffing in the middle of combat, you aren't doing whatever else you can be doing, whether that is attacking, healing, casting other spells (incl. other buffs). When you cast every buff pre-combat, you lose that layer.

What is this game you are referring to because that is not how it is in Pillars of Eternity 1&2, did you actually play those games above Classic difficulty ?

In Pillars games you have to go trough "pre buffing" phase on every single encounter and you have to do it once combat starts, especially in Deadfire since all the spells are per encounter in PoE1 you sometimes had to skip buffing phase just to conserve some resources

 

[fantadomat]

Somehow I don't' remember Gandalf casting bunch of buffs on the fellowship of the ring every time it looked like there's enemy in the distance.

Gandalf isn't a mage, as evidenced by his failure to ever cast a proper fireball. He's almost certainly some kind of cleric/thief with a couple magic wands larping as a wizard.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Why, though? Why would you want a feature that is automatic and adds nothing other than pointless clicks or having to write your own scripts to automate the pointless clicking?

So the game can have buff spells without the issue of boring manual buffing. But really you need what MRY mentioned, a system where each buff lowers you max mana or whateverthefuck while it remains in place.

 

[Lacrymas]

What is this game you are referring to because that is not how it is in Pillars of Eternity 1&2, did you actually play those games above Classic difficulty ?

In Pillars games you have to go trough "pre buffing" phase on every single encounter and you have to do it once combat starts, especially in Deadfire since all the spells are per encounter in PoE1 you sometimes had to skip buffing phase just to conserve some resources

It doesn't matter whether PoE1 or 2 are difficult or not, this is purely a theoretical framework for or against pre-buffing. And yes, of course sometimes you had to skip the buffing phase to conserve resources, that's the whole idea. You don't gain anything by skipping buffs when pre-buffing is allowed, you only ever lose by purposefully gimping yourself.

a system where each buff lowers you max mana or whateverthefuck while it remains in place.

Mana systems are decline and the enemy. It's MMO design that goes counter to long-term resource conservation.

 

[Atchodas]

So the game can have buff spells without the issue of boring manual buffing. But really you need what MRY mentioned, a system where each buff lowers you max mana or whateverthefuck while it remains in place.

OR

Spoiler

a system where spell casts are limited and you cant spam them every encounter , system that was already in place in PoE1

 

[luj1]

Funniest thing of all is that Josh appears to not have a clue why something he designed is good or bad. Poor guy, being a lead crushed him. Good designer to have around, I genuinely believe that, but a horrible lead.

Josh knew that average customer is retarded so he tried to dumb it down to their level however he didn't realise how retarded sheeple really are and that dumbing down to their level is practically impossible, in result he only managed to piss off old school CRPG player base who bought first PoE game and realised its shit and then Deadfire did not improve on almost anything which resulted in shit sales because these games mostly sell by word of mouth.

Basically to make successful CRPG you have to please the hardcore player base first and once they agree that your game is good the sheeple will follow buy the game and not play it.

Pretty much. CRPGs work best inside a niche, Josh tried to please everybody and it flopped. Just like Fargo did with Numenera

Also, the poor soul is trying to mystify Deadfire's failure. It's simple. The real test of how good a sequel will sell is not how good it is. It's how good the original was.

 

[undecaf]

Why did the post sound like a confession of a crybaby? "I failed once, so I will not even try again! I can't do it, I caaan't!"

I know Josh is a bit of a... well, this wasn't something I expected from him.

 

[Atchodas]

It doesn't matter whether PoE1 or 2 are difficult or not, this is purely a theoretical framework for or against pre-buffing. And yes, of course sometimes you had to skip the buffing phase to conserve resources, that's the whole idea. You don't gain anything by skipping buffs when prebuffing is allowed, you only ever lose by purposefully gimping yourself.


Mana systems are decline and the enemy. It's MMO design that goes counter to long-term resource conservation.

Dude once again : PRE BUFFING IS NOT OPTIONAL IN PILLARS DEADFIRE YOU HAVE TO FUCKING DO IT EVERY FUCKING TIME

The only difference between prebuffing in PFKM and PoE2 is that in Deadfire you must do it as soon as combat starts where in PFKM you can do it right before the combat

 

[Desiderius]

Lies again, it is well known that during military campaigns, especially offensive ones and during that era, soldiers buffed themselves in most battles by raping and pillaging nearby stuff, boom, next argument please.

Quote from wikipedia :

"During World War II, amphetamine and methamphetamine were used extensively by Allied and Axis forces for their stimulant and performance-enhancing effects."

Nazis = Meth heads

It’s well documented at this point. Makes the whole era a lot more comprehensible.

 

[Lacrymas]

Dude once again : PRE BUFFING IS NOT OPTIONAL IN PILLARS DEADFIRE YOU HAVE TO FUCKING DO IT EVERY FUCKING TIME

It doesn't matter what is optional and what isn't in PoE1 or 2, we are talking about pre-buffing vs not allowing that in general.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Mana systems are decline and the enemy. It's MMO design that goes counter to long-term resource conservation.

It's not MMO design because loads of games had it before MMOs. If there's an issue with mana being too plentiful then just increase what the spells cost and make it harder to replenish, duh. Vancian is nothing special.

 

[Voids]

For me the reception of D:OS2 was more than a bit confusing. Personally i found the game compelling for the first 4-6 hours or so but then i rapidly lost interest when i discovered that the writing wasn't getting better, the systems were shit and the itemization one of the worst to grace any computer game. Every single one of my friends that played the game more or less shared my sentiments and no-one made it far off the starting island. I honestly don't know a single person that actually liked the game but somehow it's universally praised.

Because that's as far as modern reviewers will play a game and everyone just parrots the new tastemakers.

 

[Atchodas]

It doesn't matter what is optional and what isn't in PoE1 or 2, we are talking about pre-buffing vs not allowing that in general.

How can you not allow pre buffing if there are buffs in game ?

So if I cant pre buff out of combat I buff myself at the start of the combat how is this not prebuffiing ?

Whole idea of buffs being in games is that you cast them before enemy fucked you up

 

[Desiderius]

For me the reception of D:OS2 was more than a bit confusing. Personally i found the game compelling for the first 4-6 hours or so but then i rapidly lost interest when i discovered that the writing wasn't getting better, the systems were shit and the itemization one of the worst to grace any computer game. Every single one of my friends that played the game more or less shared my sentiments and no-one made it far off the starting island. I honestly don't know a single person that actually liked the game but somehow it's universally praised.

Because that's as far as modern reviewers will play a game and everyone just parrots the new tastemakers.

They don’t make my taste nor yours. If the game is good there will be thousands of tastemakers, including some here with a good bit of reach.

DF didn’t sell because it wasn’t good enough. Making great games is hard.

 

[Jedi Exile]

I think Josh is unfair to himself. Sad that Pillars are going to die. The setting was interesting, and I think that Deadfire was brilliant and one of the best games I've played in recent years (of course, I mean turn-based Deadfire). I also doubt that bad sales were a consequence of Sawyer's decisions alone. PoE was a success due to Baldur's Gate nostalgia, but Obsidian hasn't got the IP and Josh made a game in a new setting which he had to invent from scratch. He did quite a good job with that. With game mechanics, he wasn't successful, but I doubt that Sawyer even wanted to make RTwP game in the first place. Most likely, he was in favour of turn-based, but again, he didn't have a choice (maybe I am wrong, but I am sure Feargus would have never allowed a turn-based game because he feared a backlash from BG fans). PoE sold well, but it actually was a failure because it wasn't able to produce a cult following like BG or Fallout or even Arcanum did. If it managed to do so, then things could have been very different. What was actually his failure - he failed to develop a new RTwP system from scratch which could have been better than AD&D. Maybe he just overestimated his abilities. Me, I don't care much about combat, and if you don't count combat, PoE was a fun game to play (and PoE 2 was great).

 

[Flou]

Why isn't PoE1 already on gamepass? Why isn't Deadfire on PC gamepass already? If they wanted to use gamepass for "smaller" games then putting your already developed games on it should be a no brainer, no? Plus putting them on the gamepass would hopefully build new player base, new fans of the series that'd seriously help the sequel they may be developing.

Can't be bothered to check but I think Pillars of Eternity 1 is/was on Origin. Not sure if Deadfire followed. Either way, Obsidian isn't the publisher in either one of those games. Paradox and Versus Evil might have their own plans for the games, rather than to get them on GamePass and there might be contracts that currently prevent the games being on GamePass.

Not to mention if they are making the 3rd game, it would be better to release the 1st and 2nd game on GamePass when they announce the 3rd game. That's how I would do it at least.

 

[Lacrymas]

How can you not allow pre buffing if there are buffs in game ?

So if I cant pre buff out of combat I buff myself at the start of the combat how is this not prebuffiing ?

Whole idea of buffs being in games is that you cast them before enemy fucked you up

Like I said for like the fifth time already, you could be using that time to attack/CC/debuff/cast other spells. You can't cast all the buffs you want before the enemies come to you, and some enemies do want to target your casters immediately (like the Lagufaeth), this is splitting hairs on what "pre-buffing" means. If that is your criteria of pre-buffing, then PoE's system does have pre-buffing, but nobody thinks that.

 

[Infinitron]

Can't be bothered to check but I think Pillars of Eternity 1 is/was on Origin. Not sure if Deadfire followed. Either way, Obsidian isn't the publisher in either one of those games. Paradox and Versus Evil might have their own plans for the games, rather than to get them on GamePass and there might be contracts that currently prevent the games being on GamePass.

Worth noting that Tyranny which fully belongs to Paradox is on Game Pass.