Josh Sawyer Q&A Thread

[Shadenuat]

When dnd magic can do anything and replace anything even at low levels, it doesn't matter how much you fiddle with stats. Roleplaying is fundamentally tied to worldbuilding.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer talking more about the BG3-effect at Something Awful https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...=3856099&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=9

But that sort of thing is probably extremely time-consuming dev-wise. Like a lot of the best stuff in Baldur's Gate 3 are the tiny outside-of-combat details and all those little things take time and money to implement that a lot of studios just can't do under the traditional publishing system and judging from the reaction to ropekid's comments on that tweet and the tweet itself, a lot of people fail to understand this.

I honestly think it's hard to tell if they really don't understand it or if they do and they're just being disingenuous haters. I don't think it's that hard of a concept to grasp.

It is very funny to see it reduced to "you guys need to work harder if you want our respect". Sorry but the difference between a $10M budget and a $100M budget isn't that the individual developers on the latter all work 10x as hard.

All the argument around it seems kind of pointless now- what raised bar?

From my perspective, the bars of scope and production value for a D&Dlike party-based fantasy CRPG.

Is this a concern you have for Avowed, or any potential PoE3?

I'm just curious and if you can't answer I understand

It's a concern I have for smaller companies that continue to work in the space like, e.g., Owlcat, Tactical Adventures, GrapeOcean, etc.

I don't personally think Avowed is comparable in terms of type of game and PoE3 is nonexistent/irrelevant.

An acknowledgment of Black Geyser, wow. Though they may not even be around for much longer.

FPS RPGs are already a space where developers spend huge amounts of money.

E: Oh, no I don’t think Avowed being successful would make PoE3 happen; it would make Avowed 2 happen.

BG3 being successful is more likely to make other "iso" party-based D&Dlike fantasy RPGs happen.

 

[rojay]

Thanks for the very convenient link.

 

[Shadenuat]

Are them devs blind with envy or something? Players obviously demand more quality from aaa products, not everyone.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Deadfire's solution to skill checks was one of the few good innovations they've done. Traditional approach where Fighter can't be a sweet talker has always been utterly retarded.

For the same reason I always saw Bard as RPGs biggest cancer, it's patently absurd to have a specialized class dedicated to roleplaying and interacting with the game.

 

[Jarpie]

Deadfire's solution to skill checks was one of the few good innovations they've done. Traditional approach where Fighter can't be a sweet talker has always been utterly retarded.

For the same reason I always saw Bard as RPGs biggest cancer, it's patently absurd to have a specialized class dedicated to roleplaying and interacting with the game.

Or Cleric not having intimidate as class skill in 3/3,5e...at least not in NWN/NWN2/etc, I imagine it was the same in the official PnP rules too...imagine cleric of Tempus, Uthgar or something and not being intimidating...

 

[ropetight]

Deadfire's solution to skill checks was one of the few good innovations they've done. Traditional approach where Fighter can't be a sweet talker has always been utterly retarded.

For the same reason I always saw Bard as RPGs biggest cancer, it's patently absurd to have a specialized class dedicated to roleplaying and interacting with the game.

Realistic approach if I ever saw one.
In IT you always send developers and sysadmins to customers and public, no scummy sales, marketing and PR are needed.

 

[KVVRR]

But that sort of thing is probably extremely time-consuming dev-wise. Like a lot of the best stuff in Baldur's Gate 3 are the tiny outside-of-combat details and all those little things take time and money to implement that a lot of studios just can't do under the traditional publishing system and judging from the reaction to ropekid's comments on that tweet and the tweet itself, a lot of people fail to understand this.

I honestly think it's hard to tell if they really don't understand it or if they do and they're just being disingenuous haters. I don't think it's that hard of a concept to grasp.

It is very funny to see it reduced to "you guys need to work harder if you want our respect". Sorry but the difference between a $10M budget and a $100M budget isn't that the individual developers on the latter all work 10x as hard.

While I understand where he's coming, he's working for Obsidian, who are now owned by Microsoft. As far as I've seen Microsoft isn't some Activison-like corporation for the game companies they own, they're very lenient with them. to the point things like Redfall come out in the way they did. And from what I've heard this is the case with Obsidian too. With Outer Worlds they let them do whatever they wanted, only checking in every now and then to see progress being made. Josh himself got to make his own personal passion project out of it.
Not every game needs to be BG3's size, and not every company should be expected to deliver such a product, but why wouldn't consumers expect big companies known for their reactive RPGs to step up and follow up on it? It's on the very own comment he's replying to, most of BG3's best parts aren't the combat, or the plot, or the story, it's the little details that show care. I wouldn't in a million years thought they would've bothered to actually implement a mechanic in-game that reflects Gale's backstory - either the ability you get which literally doesn't have a practical use nor the cheap cutscenes for it if you meet the criteria through gameplay - but the fact that they integrated it shows someone cared about it enough to combine both game and story together. They saw an opportunity to have an unique element that molds a player's unique playthrough and gives Gale an unique flavour to his character even if for all intents and porpuses it's just an icon and 3 separate 30 second inengine cutscenes. Isn't that what RPG's most excel at? Reactivity?
It doesn't have to be something big. It doesn't have to even be impressive. It just needs to be there, like being able to have dinner with any family in Pentiment. Show me you care, just don't stick to a formula.

 

[turkishronin]

most of BG3's best parts aren't the combat, or the plot, or the story, it's the little details that show care.

Sounds like something a woman would say

 

[Roguey]

While I understand where he's coming, he's working for Obsidian, who are now owned by Microsoft. As far as I've seen Microsoft isn't some Activison-like corporation for the game companies they own, they're very lenient with them. to the point things like Redfall come out in the way they did. And from what I've heard this is the case with Obsidian too. With Outer Worlds they let them do whatever they wanted, only checking in every now and then to see progress being made. Josh himself got to make his own personal passion project out of it.
Not every game needs to be BG3's size, and not every company should be expected to deliver such a product, but why wouldn't consumers expect big companies known for their reactive RPGs to step up and follow up on it? It's on the very own comment he's replying to, most of BG3's best parts aren't the combat, or the plot, or the story, it's the little details that show care. I wouldn't in a million years thought they would've bothered to actually implement a mechanic in-game that reflects Gale's backstory - either the ability you get which literally doesn't have a practical use nor the cheap cutscenes for it if you meet the criteria through gameplay - but the fact that they integrated it shows someone cared about it enough to combine both game and story together. They saw an opportunity to have an unique element that molds a player's unique playthrough and gives Gale an unique flavour to his character even if for all intents and porpuses it's just an icon and 3 separate 30 second inengine cutscenes. Isn't that what RPG's most excel at? Reactivity?
It doesn't have to be something big. It doesn't have to even be impressive. It just needs to be there, like being able to have dinner with any family in Pentiment. Show me you care, just don't stick to a formula.

You say Obsidian doesn't focus more on reactivity and then cite a recent Obsidian game's well-done reactivity.

 

[KVVRR]

While I understand where he's coming, he's working for Obsidian, who are now owned by Microsoft. As far as I've seen Microsoft isn't some Activison-like corporation for the game companies they own, they're very lenient with them. to the point things like Redfall come out in the way they did. And from what I've heard this is the case with Obsidian too. With Outer Worlds they let them do whatever they wanted, only checking in every now and then to see progress being made. Josh himself got to make his own personal passion project out of it.
Not every game needs to be BG3's size, and not every company should be expected to deliver such a product, but why wouldn't consumers expect big companies known for their reactive RPGs to step up and follow up on it? It's on the very own comment he's replying to, most of BG3's best parts aren't the combat, or the plot, or the story, it's the little details that show care. I wouldn't in a million years thought they would've bothered to actually implement a mechanic in-game that reflects Gale's backstory - either the ability you get which literally doesn't have a practical use nor the cheap cutscenes for it if you meet the criteria through gameplay - but the fact that they integrated it shows someone cared about it enough to combine both game and story together. They saw an opportunity to have an unique element that molds a player's unique playthrough and gives Gale an unique flavour to his character even if for all intents and porpuses it's just an icon and 3 separate 30 second inengine cutscenes. Isn't that what RPG's most excel at? Reactivity?
It doesn't have to be something big. It doesn't have to even be impressive. It just needs to be there, like being able to have dinner with any family in Pentiment. Show me you care, just don't stick to a formula.

You say Obsidian doesn't focus more on reactivity and then cite a recent Obsidian game's well-done reactivity.

I'm not saying they don't do it, if anything I'm saying they should focus on making more games like Pentiment and less like Outer Worlds. Josh saying it's not viable is laughable when he's the entire reason that game exists.

 

[Roguey]

I'm not saying they don't do it, if anything I'm saying they should focus on making more games like Pentiment and less like Outer Worlds. Josh saying it's not viable is laughable when he's the entire reason that game exists.

TOW was Tim and Leonard's deliberate attempt to make a polished hit and they were successful in that goal. You'll have to wait to see what the bigger-and-presumably-better Outer Worlds 2 is like, might give you what you want.

 

[turkishronin]

Deadfire is weird everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right but still feel as if something is lacking and no one can point out exactly what it is. It's as if someone put a curse on Sawyer that every game he makes should turn out to be hollow.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Exactly, they literally had an option to pursue AAA-Pillars 3 and deliver Larian-killer with unlimited Billy G money.

Instead they've made pants-on-head choice to pursue not just one but two big projects with TOW and Avowed, and now both games seem downgraded to semi-AA because it was far too much for Obsidian sized studio to handle.

 

[KVVRR]

I'm not saying they don't do it, if anything I'm saying they should focus on making more games like Pentiment and less like Outer Worlds. Josh saying it's not viable is laughable when he's the entire reason that game exists.

TOW was Tim and Leonard's deliberate attempt to make a polished hit and they were successful in that goal. You'll have to wait to see what the bigger-and-presumably-better Outer Worlds 2 is like, might give you what you want.

We'll see, but so far I wouldn't bet on it. Outer Worlds also had other problems besides a severe lack of details.
I think the problem is that polished these days just means "bugless". It doesn't mean that it's shiny and it'll stand out, it means that it's clean. Stable. I'd take some 2 hour eurojank whos code has been dragged through the mud and it's infested with maggots game over a 30 hour stretched thin bugless product.

 

[Artyoan]

Deadfire is weird everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right but still feel as if something is lacking and no one can point out exactly what it is. It's as if someone put a curse on Sawyer that every game he makes should turn out to be hollow.

I think the setting being entirely within a 'sailing/pirate' theme was a bad choice. I liked PoE1 quite a bit but the setting change was off-putting in the initial marketing. Even after playing it I've yet to finish it and the tonal changes, especially in returning characters, is my main turnoff to this day.

My real guess as to why Larian is a runaway success while other crpgs are middling is that the world environment is very interactive and that is known going in. Lots of clutter and objects that can be interacted with, as well as environmental combos with those objects. Throw them, light them up, etc. It doesn't matter if throwing a barrel or chest on an enemy is tactically useful, it matters that it can be done. Similar to Elder Scrolls, the mind loves the idea that objects and environments aren't just visual dressing but tangible things. Similar effect to open world games providing that sense of endless possibility at the outset, then tapering off quickly when the player finds out how constrained it is. But compare that to PoE or Solasta where you press a key, highlight the dev placed objects, and then just loot it.

If I were to be making a crpg, I'd make high environmental interaction be a key priority if I want sales. The tactical use of it matters less than that it just exists. I can throw the crate, light it on fire, and put it out with rain.

 

[KVVRR]

Deadfire is weird everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right but still feel as if something is lacking and no one can point out exactly what it is. It's as if someone put a curse on Sawyer that every game he makes should turn out to be hollow.

I think the setting being entirely within a 'sailing/pirate' theme was a bad choice. I liked PoE1 quite a bit but the setting change was off-putting in the initial marketing. Even after playing it I've yet to finish it and the tonal changes, especially in returning characters, is my main turnoff to this day.

My real guess as to why Larian is a runaway success while other crpgs are middling is that the world environment is very interactive and that is known going in. Lots of clutter and objects that can be interacted with, as well as environmental combos with those objects. Throw them, light them up, etc. It doesn't matter if throwing a barrel or chest on an enemy is tactically useful, it matters that it can be done. Similar to Elder Scrolls, the mind loves the idea that objects and environments aren't just visual dressing but tangible things. Similar effect to open world games providing that sense of endless possibility at the outset, then tapering off quickly when the player finds out how constrained it is. But compare that to PoE or Solasta where you press a key, highlight the dev placed objects, and then just loot it.

If I were to be making a crpg, I'd make high environmental interaction be a key priority if I want sales. The tactical use of it matters less than that it just exists. I can throw the crate, light it on fire, and put it out with rain.

Chucking people at eachother then starting throwing my own legendary-tier items once nobody's close and I can't close the gap has, in fact, been super fun to do even if it's very inefficient.

 

[turkishronin]

Deadfire is weird everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right but still feel as if something is lacking and no one can point out exactly what it is. It's as if someone put a curse on Sawyer that every game he makes should turn out to be hollow.

I think the setting being entirely within a 'sailing/pirate' theme was a bad choice. I liked PoE1 quite a bit but the setting change was off-putting in the initial marketing. Even after playing it I've yet to finish it and the tonal changes, especially in returning characters, is my main turnoff to this day.

My real guess as to why Larian is a runaway success while other crpgs are middling is that the world environment is very interactive and that is known going in. Lots of clutter and objects that can be interacted with, as well as environmental combos with those objects. Throw them, light them up, etc. It doesn't matter if throwing a barrel or chest on an enemy is tactically useful, it matters that it can be done. Similar to Elder Scrolls, the mind loves the idea that objects and environments aren't just visual dressing but tangible things. Similar effect to open world games providing that sense of endless possibility at the outset, then tapering off quickly when the player finds out how constrained it is. But compare that to PoE or Solasta where you press a key, highlight the dev placed objects, and then just loot it.

If I were to be making a crpg, I'd make high environmental interaction be a key priority if I want sales. The tactical use of it matters less than that it just exists. I can throw the crate, light it on fire, and put it out with rain.

Trannyfinder outdid Pillars2 without doing any of these things

 

[Roguey]

Deadfire is weird everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right but still feel as if something is lacking and no one can point out exactly what it is. It's as if someone put a curse on Sawyer that every game he makes should turn out to be hollow.

I have articulated exactly what I disliked about Deadfire https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ow-with-turn-based-combat.123213/post-8264372

 

[santino27]

A lot of people have. This revisionist idea that "everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right" is batshit crazy. Some of the mechanics changes were improvements. Some were not. The story and most aspects of said story sucked. A lot of people weren't as fascinated by muh colonialism setting (OR pirates 0.1) as the devs clearly thought they would be, and of course, it was building off of a game that most agree was overlong and mediocre outside of its expansions.

 

[luj1]

everyone agrees they did most of the crucial things right

grade 1 bullshit

instead of fixing rotten core systems from Pillars 1 they focused on eye candy and pathetic shite like talking parrots

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Bohrain]

Don't think the setting or any lack of environmental interaction were the reasons for Deadfire's lack of success. It doesn't satisfy the itch for the number crunching grognard since the combat and character building options feel so homogenous. And it doesn't satisfy storyfags because the writing is dull and it doesn't have cheap hooks for weird girls like pretty boy anime males.

 

[gurugeorge]

lolwhut, the "circle of unhinged egomaniacs plastering their names all over spells," even the formalization as a loose association, is a direct lift from Jack Vance, as it was in D&D. They just changed the names in the Pillows series, whereas D&D openly acknowledged the inspiration and some of the original Vancian names.

I mean, I suppose it's barely possible that they came up with the general concept all by themselves, but it's fairly common nerdy knowledge so I doubt it.

 

[Infinitron]

Of course it's copied from D&D.