Development Info Josh Sawyer on Utility and Balance in Game Design

[sea]

I disagree with this "balance uber alles" approach to game design. It's a waste of resources for the sole purpose of not hurting the retarded players' self esteem.

So do I. I do think that, in a single-player game, complete obsession with balance is a silly idea because you will never truly perfect it. What's more, most RPG studios tend to have individual designers working on individual parts of hte game, and naturally their different approaches to design will result in some parts of the game that are better than others with respect to balance. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get balance as close as possible with the resources you have, so long as it does not damage the final play experience.

There is a huge difference between "X skill is worthless" and "X build is worthless." If players make mistakes within a fair system, then that is their fault and they should suffer consequences (the harshness of which is a matter of debate). However, when mistakes are not the result of the player's actions but rather blind luck, that is not fun, fair or entertaining, unless you are a masochist and enjoy restarting your game frequently. And of course, we already have roguelikes for that.

Not all games should be enjoyable, or even playable, by everybody. You, and Sawyer for that matter, seem to think that all games should be playable by everybody and enjoyable by almost everybody. Unfortunately, the sad result of this is that games designed with these goals in mind end up playable by everybody and enjoyable by few (or, at least, few with a triple digit IQ).

A game should be enjoyable for its target audience. Sometimes as a developer you don't have a choice in what your target audience is. Generally speaking if you want to sell enough copies to keep yourself in business, sacrifices are required. The bigger and much more realistic question is how much you are going to sacrifice, how, and whether or not those sacrifices are truly necessary.

For instance, good interface design is one thing RPGs have really come to master in recent years. Does it help that those are in World of Warcraft, Dragon Age 2, etc.? Probably not, but I think it's very fair to say that a good UI definitely helps accessibility for games with complex mechanics. If you were to make a more hardcore D&D RPG but keep, say, the Dragon Age UI, I think that would drastically improve your sales potential.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah honestly...I'm kind of confused about this whole thing. He's making fighting enemies not give out any XP, but then he talks about giving every class a combat ability and how they should be useful in all situations...I'm confused. If you don't want NPCs to get killed due to degenerate gameplay, then don't give out XP for NPC deaths. But if you're big on combat and then don't give out XP for monster killing...what's the point? If you want me to kill monsters by making every class a combat-ready one, then continue that trend by giving XP.

Am I the only one here that feels that certain design goals are in conflict with their proposed resolutions?

sea wait...what of DAs UI is good? I looked at it just now (never played the game) and can't see it. Can you explain?

 

[LeStryfe79]

Dragon Age UI couldn't handle a D&D game, and neither could WoW. One doesn't have enough hot bars and the other doesn't effectively incorporate multiple party members.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Am I the only one here that feels that certain design goals are in conflict with their proposed resolutions?

No. Actually this has been commented upon quite a bit.

 

[Delterius]

I believe he's not restricting EXP to keep you from killing, rather not to have to balance quest experience between what/if people die. Its the same thing as before: your priority is to solve problems, but simpler on the developer who wants to award similar rewards for different approaches.

Dragon Age UI couldn't handle a D&D game, and neither could WoW. One doesn't have enough hot bars and the other doesn't effectively incorporate multiple party members.

It goes without saying that a change in design paradigm would accompany a change in the UI. Even then, you can keep track of a lot of people's status in the WoW UI, and I'm pretty sure the Dragon Age UI has more hotbars than, say, the Infinity Engine games.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

In fact you should be able to solo a campaign if you are a thief with invisibility ring or lots of potions. Thief is just very powerful. The backstab mechanic was crap in BG but I don't know what else you can do in a rtwp game.

But the backstab stuff is very powerful. Grinding out lots of easy enemies doesn't win battles, winning battles is when you skillfully manage to lure out the archlich and backstab him before he can turn the tide on you.

It's obvious that sawyer never figured this out. The most powerful character is useless? Oops, looks like we need a new designer then. I almost hope it's excuse making for his sake, and he doesn't believe this.

Except that Sawyer's been lead designer on 3E games, and in 3E the archlich, along with other undead (and constructs etc.) are immune to crits and, therefore, backstab. So for a large chunk of all enemies, all you have is a fighter with lower BAB and fewer feats.

 

[Moribund]

What games? What good ones? NWN II? You really think encounters were good?

Awful.

And now he's making the game system itself too.

Yeah honestly...I'm kind of confused about this whole thing. He's making fighting enemies not give out any XP, but then he talks about giving every class a combat ability and how they should be useful in all situations...I'm confused. If you don't want NPCs to get killed due to degenerate gameplay, then don't give out XP for NPC deaths. But if you're big on combat and then don't give out XP for monster killing...what's the point? If you want me to kill monsters by making every class a combat-ready one, then continue that trend by giving XP.

Am I the only one here that feels that certain design goals are in conflict with their proposed resolutions?

sea wait...what of DAs UI is good? I looked at it just now (never played the game) and can't see it. Can you explain?

Almost like he's trying to make everything a chore or something. Hint: you don't reward people for skipping your game elements or for failing to do them properly.

Where's fretrider? We need a rant about librul game design, this is like affirmative action for being retarded.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Except that Sawyer's been lead designer on 3E games, and in 3E the archlich, along with other undead (and constructs etc.) are immune to crits and, therefore, backstab. So for a large chunk of all enemies, all you have is a fighter with lower BAB and fewer feats.

yeah Look what that culminated in (HINT: NWN2).

 

[l3loodAngel]

Rule of thumb, guys: Usefulness does not imply perfect balance. All skills being "useful" doesn't mean they'll be equally applicable in each and every case.

Don't spoil the fun. Option's like choosing racial enemy gibberling in BG2 and specializing in Katanas in BG1 is what made the series great. Besides what will they bitch about if "useful" skills like survival, gambling and throwing will be absent from the game?

Celestial Fury is perhaps one of the best items in the entire game of BG2. More than enough reason to specialize in Katanas.

Celestial furry is the third best weapon in B2 after Carsomyr +5 and Crom Faeyr imo, but if you are not a Paladin, Carsomyr is useless to you. I don't remember seeing any worthwhile katanas beside Celestial, but even finding it was circumstantial so to say at least. The shitty weapon balance was always a lottery in IE games and you could never know what you will find. The best weapons in BG1 ware Scimitars from the corpse of Drizzt, the best weapon in PST was hammer and etc. Try guessing the best decent weapon before the game.

 

[Shadenuat]

Dragon Age UI couldn't handle a D&D game, and neither could WoW.

MMO UI's seem too generalist for single player games for my taste. In my opinion, in single player games UI should be more organic and incorporate, for example, unique abilities each class has (maybe a thief would have a stealth-gem like in Thief game when you switch to his UI, mage - an ingredient bag, fighter - fighting styles, ect.).
It is safer to give player option of changing everything in UI to suit his taste, but it takes something away and I am not sure it is the best choice or most immersive choice (remember all those buttons and sliding screens in Fallout?), and game just does't feel "whole".

 

[Johannes]

I still haven't understood this Rest spamming and Save scumming argument. It's like the retarded developer is blaming the player for his faults in encounter design.

No, they are blaming themselves obviously. When you make games that allow and encourage rest spamming and save scumming, of course players will do it.

 

[Arkadin]

I want to read ancient poetry.

 

[sea]

Dragon Age UI couldn't handle a D&D game, and neither could WoW. One doesn't have enough hot bars and the other doesn't effectively incorporate multiple party members.

I was referring more to general organization of the UI, the way the journal is laid out, way information is displayed, economy of space, etc.

Also, Dragon Age has as many quickslots in your hotbar as you want. It's limited to one row but you get more the higher your resolution. You can have something like 30+ per party member. Not enough?

 

[Hormalakh]

I'm hoping they'll think about making "hotbars" multi-leveled. Instead of 30 that you scroll through you'll for example, shift+#, ctrl+#, alt+#, or just hit # for different hotbars and they're layered on top of each other so you can see them all...

 

[Moribund]

Original Pool of Radiance had a set number of random encounters and an area was clear of them. In wizardry after you've had so many encounters in an area they get really rare.

It's not hard to fix, and it's not a real problem anyway. Player can always reload, player can always cheat. For most people it's not an issue, for the few it is, well, use your willpower.

 

[Infinitron]

Except that Sawyer's been lead designer on 3E games, and in 3E the archlich, along with other undead (and constructs etc.) are immune to crits and, therefore, backstab. So for a large chunk of all enemies, all you have is a fighter with lower BAB and fewer feats.

yeah Look what that culminated in (HINT: NWN2).

Meet Eric "Ferret" Baudoin, formerly senior designer at BIOWARE, currently at BETHESDA: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Ferret_Baudoin
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...udoin-is-senior-desighner-on-fallout-4.77064/

 

[Captain Shrek]

Except that Sawyer's been lead designer on 3E games, and in 3E the archlich, along with other undead (and constructs etc.) are immune to crits and, therefore, backstab. So for a large chunk of all enemies, all you have is a fighter with lower BAB and fewer feats.

yeah Look what that culminated in (HINT: NWN2).

Meet Eric "Ferret" Baudoin, formerly lead designer at BIOWARE, currently at BETHESDA: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Ferret_Baudoin

Meet Josh Sawyer

Designer(s) Ferret Baudoin (lead designer)
J.E. Sawyer (lead designer)
Chris Avellone​

 

[LeStryfe79]

Dragon Age UI couldn't handle a D&D game, and neither could WoW. One doesn't have enough hot bars and the other doesn't effectively incorporate multiple party members.

I was referring more to general organization of the UI, the way the journal is laid out, way information is displayed, economy of space, etc.

Also, Dragon Age has as many quickslots in your hotbar as you want. It's limited to one row but you get more the higher your resolution. You can have something like 30+ per party member. Not enough?

I soloed it with a rogue, so I guess I was unaware of DA's flexibility. That game had a paltry looking spellbook so I just assumed the worst. I personally think a better version of ToEE radial menus might work better though. I guess I dislike a lot of modern UI because they seem pasted on and take me out of the atmosphere. Functionality and ease of use are nice and all, but if they smell like popamole, I'd rather take a shit UI that looked pretty.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, Josh was his replacement. By many accounts, he saved the NWN2 project. Ask Anthony Davis about it.

 

[Delterius]

It's not hard to fix, and it's not a real problem anyway. Player can always reload, player can always cheat. For most people it's not an issue, for the few it is, well, use your willpower.

I think most people are just afraid of really vague game design, which incorporates metagaming and, thus, making everything feel artificial. I'm even one of those.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Yes, Josh was his replacement. By many accounts, he saved the NWN2 project. Ask Anthony Davis about it.

....

Saved?

it was worse?

I refuse to believe it.

EDIT:

Also, didn't Ferret WRITE the game and not design encounter? Or am I messing things up?

 

[l3loodAngel]

I still haven't understood this Rest spamming and Save scumming argument. It's like the retarded developer is blaming the player for his faults in encounter design.

No, they are blaming themselves obviously. When you make games that allow and encourage rest spamming and save scumming, of course players will do it.

Neither rest spamming or save scumming is the problem. I still remember the fights with Firkrag, Adalon, Kangaxx and Bodhi when I was fully rested, but I don't remember fights with some irrelevant butt pirates or thieves. The problem is encounter design and not the things you have mentioned.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah apparently it was shit. He came in near the end of the development of that game. Mattchat talked about it.

 

[Infinitron]

I still haven't understood this Rest spamming and Save scumming argument. It's like the retarded developer is blaming the player for his faults in encounter design.

No, they are blaming themselves obviously. When you make games that allow and encourage rest spamming and save scumming, of course players will do it.

Neither rest spamming or save scumming is the problem. I still remember the fights with Firkrag, Adalon, Kangaxx and Bodhi when I was fully rested, but I don't remember fights with some irrelevant butt pirates or thieves. The problem is encounter design and not the things you have mentioned.

Climactic boss battles are more memorable than trash mobs? You don't say.

They can't all be epic fights. Trash mobs are part of the CRPG experience, at least in this subtype of CRPG. Pacing and all that.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Climactic boss battles are more memorable than trash mobs? You don't say.

They can't all be epic fights. Trash mobs are part of the CRPG experience, at least in this subtype of CRPG. Pacing and all that.

I think this is one experience I can do without. Thanks. I am looking forward to games that take inspiration from AOD in that respect.